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Younger women and their lack of conversation about certain issues
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It's a discussion based on opinions gained from experience. I don't see why we need statistics to back up our experience. If one person experience differs from another it doesn't prove either of them wrong. People bucking a the trend of a generalisation don't disprove the generalisation. Just because a thread is started on what may turn out to be a false argument doesn't mean it should be locked.
Do you demand statistics in everyday conversation?
Okay, the next time you get up in arms about generalizations I'll point this out to you.
Also, boards.ie isn't 'every day conversation,' it's a very different format, and this is Humanities, not the pub. Rational, civil debate doesn't include generalizations. Plus, it takes only a few moments to back up your viewpoint with a quick google. I don't understand the hesitance of so many people about it.I also don't see how I could part of the selection bias. Are men who post in the humanities forum more likely to encounter women who don't have interest in politics? I don't see how. However I do think a woman who post on the humanities forum is going to be more likely to have interest in politics as it is a forum for debate which often include political issues.
No. They're just more likely to discuss these issues amongst their close peers (who the majority of which are typically the same gender, but as evidenced in this thread does not always apply). The selection bias is the same in both situations. Familiarity concept.
I know loads of men who have absolutely no interest in these topics and loads of women who do, it doesn't mean I'm going to make some massive generalization that men don't care about these topics, and then try to honestly defend the idea with absolutely nothing to back it up. It's ludicrous. Yet here we are.
Some people have an interest in those topics. Some people don't. Gender doesn't really come into it just because you have anecdotal evidence to the contrary.0 -
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Women are doing better in University, that doesn't necessarily mean they have more interest in intellectual or academic discussions, it just means that they are achieving better results at University.
In my experience in Ireland, men engage much more in these "serious" issues, now that doesn't necessarily make it a nationwide fact, it just makes it true in my experience which is the only barometer I can use for this discussion as the parameters needed to accurately measure how engaged each gender is in "serious" issues would be an absolute logistical nightmare to construct, in fact I'd suggest it would be bordering on impossible to deliver a credible analysis.......this is why this discussion is eminently valid and furthermore why anecdotal and personal experience is probably the only way through which we can interpret the discussion, unfortunately for people to assume a position of rightness in an argument it is often assumed that metrics or studies (by someone else with a lot of letters after their name) is the way we win an argument which is a rather close-minded and destructive mode of thinking. Indeed many of the women in this thread are suggesting they do want to voice an opinion on these issues but fear being shouted down or ridiculed if they do so, that happens to all of us, it has happened to me so often now I am numbed to it, bluster and waffle will always enter the equation when people are debating contentious issues. They are nothing to fear and they reveal plenty about the persons espousing same. There is an element of snobbery at play that I disapprove of here whereby if a person is full of bluster and waffle and nonsense that some say they will refuse to engage whereas I believe that in these cases it is precisely because the person is full of what you perceive as garbage that you should engage. They may of course maintain the same stubborn front but it's important that you get your alternative message across too. Of course they are not going to say "actually you're right, I'll stop frothing at the mouth now" but perhaps later they will have time to reflect and take on board what you have said or perhaps despite their lack of a PHD or lack of college degree or failure to have read some academic study or well-reviewed book, they were right in the first place....although the whole concept of rightness is a whole different debate - which I think is the key to any form of argument, realising there is no one singular right answer - that's called radicalism, extremism or even fascism no matter how well-educated or liberal you may be.
So anyway my point is that in Ireland I have experienced more men engaging in these issues, that doesn't mean women are less intelligent or somehow less worthy (as if discussing philosophy or politics makes us better people), it may mean they are less interesting if you attach great importance to discussing these issues, but you may wish to evaluate why they seem to display less interest.........perhaps it's because they are intimidated by the blusterers or ranters, perhaps they tend to be more self-absorbed and don't give much thought to the world outside of their own personal experiences, perhaps they don't like the dogmatic nature of many of these debates, perhaps they don't see the point or merit in debate itself as it doesn't really provide any tangible reward-any winner or loser or perhaps they are just not interested. Men of course fall into these categories too but in my experience, I notice they are less self-conscious or reluctant to forward an opinion on a "serious" issue regardless of how informed, insightful or articulate it may be. Whether that's something to applaud or critique is yet another debate (if you can be bothered
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There are cultural norms specific to Ireland too that frown on or disapprove of intellectual debate meaning it is not perceived as being fashionable or trendy to talk about Sartre when you're out having a few pints with your mates and perhaps more women than men let adapting to cultural norms trump their natural interest in the "serious" issue. In France, on the other hand, almost everybody you meet wants to be your own personal philosopher and engaging in intellectual discourse is worn as a badge of honour.
I've said enough now0 -
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There was a video posted in the male brain and football thread which analysed how the sexes navigate through a maze differently and both sexes had a completely different solution to the same problem.
So mazes are the reason that women do not understand the off-side rule?One of the most interesting differences appear in the way men and women estimate time, judge speed of things, carry out mental mathematical calculations, orient in space and visualize objects in three dimensions, etc. In all these tasks, women and men are strikingly different, as they are too in the way their brains process language. This may account, scientists say, for the fact that there are many more male mathematicians, airplane pilots, bush guides, mechanical engineers, architects and race car drivers than female ones.
Yet prior to the twentieth century, the sciences were considered "female" subjects, whereas languages were considered "male" subjects. This was a cultural change and nothing to do with any differences between male and female brains. It's alos ignoring much of the evidence already provided in this thread on how women are surpassing men in bith school and third level education.On the other hand, women are better than men in human relations, recognizing emotional overtones in others and in language, emotional and artistic expressiveness, esthetic appreciation, verbal language and carrying out detailed and pre-planned tasks. For example, women generally can recall lists of words or paragraphs of text better than men.
Which is why the world's most celebrated artists, writers and speakers are all female. Oh...hold on.
I understand your arguments and the validity of the evidence that you have provided, and that you disagree with the idea of culturally constructed gender, but any brain differences cannot explain the huge seperation between what consitutes male and female behavior. The topic of this thread is why aren't women interested in politics, and by how I interpret the quoted paragraphs above in hwich women have better verbal skills and more empathy, shouldn't women be more likely to be interested in current affairs and politics?
(Actually I may have just forgotten what politics is really about- self-interest and passing the buck. Which gender wants that one?)
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Where did I claim this? I was arguing your stance that there aren't differences.So mazes are the reason that women do not understand the off-side rule?
I've never heard of Science being considered a feminine subject before the 20th century.Yet prior to the twentieth century, the sciences were considered "female" subjects, whereas languages were considered "male" subjects. This was a cultural change and nothing to do with any differences between male and female brains. It's alos ignoring much of the evidence already provided in this thread on how women are surpassing men in bith school and third level education.
Women surpassing men in school isn't really evidence for anything apart from that women are better at the current school system. The education system is driven by politics. The maths thought in secondary school bares little resemblance to actual mathematics. You simply learn of steps and don't actually have to understand each step taken. Women are better at memorizing which is what most of the school system amounts to. There is also a lot of arguments that point to the school system being against boys in the sense that they simply have too much energy to sit still all day long and that they are now being deprived the chance to even run around at playtime due to health and safety.
Who does well in the art world is also political. In this case it is aimed in favor of men. It has nothing to do with who is the most talented artist. Read the art thread in humanities to see what I think about the art world.Which is why the world's most celebrated artists, writers and speakers are all female. Oh...hold on.
Says you. You still haven't made a good attempt at pointing out why men and women would have different roles in society if we were both the same. You asked for evidence for my claims and I gave you very strong respected evidence and you simply dismissed it because you didn't like what it was saying.I understand your arguments and the validity of the evidence that you have provided, and that you disagree with the idea of culturally constructed gender, but any brain differences cannot explain the huge seperation between what consitutes male and female behavior.
I have no idea why more women aren't interested in politics and I'm not going to take a random stab in the dark guess as to why this is. Politics isn't just about who has the best verbal skills you are also ignoring the fact that women may choosing to use their skills for different purposes.The topic of this thread is why aren't women interested in politics, and by how I interpret the quoted paragraphs above in hwich women have better verbal skills and more empathy, shouldn't women be more likely to be interested in current affairs and politics?
This isn't a competition between the genders so stop trying to turn it into one.(Actually I may have just forgotten what politics is really about- self-interest and passing the buck. Which gender wants that one?)
I never claimed one gender was overall better than the other I'm simply pointing out that we are clearly very different. Even if it was down to social reasons as you claim that still wouldn't negate the fact we are not the same. Why is this so insulting of an idea to you?0 -
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I've never heard of Science being considered a feminine subject before the 20th century.Women surpassing men in school isn't really evidence for anything apart from that women are better at the current school system. The education system is driven by politics. The maths thought in secondary school bares little resemblance to actual mathematics. You simply learn of steps and don't actually have to understand each step taken. Women are better at memorizing which is what most of the school system amounts to. There is also a lot of arguments that point to the school system being against boys in the sense that they simply have too much energy to sit still all day long and that they are now being deprived the chance to even run around at playtime due to health and safety.
This is all a little generalised. We just learn stuff off? Really?Who does well in the art world is also political. In this case it is aimed in favor of men. It has nothing to do with who is the most talented artist. Read the art thread in humanities to see what I think about the art world.
Will do.Says you. You still haven't made a good attempt at pointing out why men and women would have different roles in society if we were both the same. You asked for evidence for my claims and I gave you very strong respected evidence and you simply dismissed it because you didn't like what it was saying.
True. You did. As soon as I have time to quote to back up my arguments, I promise I will. I did touch on the economic origins of such gender roles earlier. But I shall be starting with Levi-Strauss, Foucualt, and Judith Butler's Gender Trouble.This isn't a competition between the genders so stop trying to turn it into one.
I'm not. That last comment at the end was a joke, hence the brackets and emoticon. My emotican was not intended to be passive-aggressive.
Even if it was down to social reasons as you claim that still wouldn't negate the fact we are not the same. Why is this so insulting of an idea to you?
It's not insulting to me, I just don't believe that there are such huge differences between the genders. Those that do exist I believe are more down to culture and society, rather than biological difference.0 -
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