Younger women and their lack of conversation about certain issues

Donald_ducked · 29-03-2011 07:35PM #1

Hi,

I was reading the political forum recently and saw an interesting topic with regards to women and their lack of political interest. This got me thinking and the more I thought about it the more I realised that it's not just politics most younger women don't really have an interest in, but a lot of other important topics such as philosophy, technology, current affairs and topics which need deeper thought like spirituality and the meaning of life. Obviously I'm generalising here but I definitely feel men talk about these topics with their friends far more than women do

I'm 22 and my male friends often talk about politics and would have a general interest and knowledge about the goings on in the country. Even when we're out having a few pints these issues would crop up from time to time, obviously we talk about football and the likes aswel but it wouldn't be unusual for something heavier to come up in conversation, especially when there is alcohol involve and people get more opinionated! The same can be said when there is a family gathering in our house, the men usually end up at one end of the table for a while talking about politics,current affairs or even space! while the women converse about issues that arn't as heavy or serious

If I was to even bring up some of the topics I've mentioned above to most of the girls I hang around with, they would look at me like I've got two heads! That said, there are always exceptions to the rule

What is your take on this?

looksee · 29-03-2011 07:45PM

Just because you are talking about heavy and serious matters doesn't prove you are doing it intelligently. Its just as easy to do uninformed waffling about politics as it is to twitter on about clothes and children's attainments.

nyarlothothep · 29-03-2011 08:27PM

I was talking to females about politics and current events, they had some really good opinions and could whoop my ass in a debate, they were foreign though. I've met some females who are Irish that could talk about these things, I dunno, I feel sometimes that its a cultural thing that women aren't supposed to be into politics, science or philosophy, so certain types of individual traits are encouraged and are therefore more numerous. In that sense I don't think its localized to this country, I know how it can be frustrating though when one has nothing really in common to talk about.

wonderfulname · 29-03-2011 08:30PM

Okay I'll talk in equally general terms, most of the time I find that men are incapable of assimilating new information or having a logical discussion, this is because they believe they are always right, most of the time they aren't, most of the time its because they prefer to oversimplify a brief overview of something that they read in the paper ratherr than actually understand it.

Basically you and your mates just talk sh*t at the bar.

Now the above isn't true, there are a lot of men like that, but there are more men who aren't, and I cannot say either way which category you fall into.

So maybe the few women you converse with are as you describe? Maybe you aren't presenting yourself as capable of intelligent conversation to the women you meet? Or maybe you are simply ignoring the existence of women who happily and coherently discuss such topics for the purpose of this thread/ preservation of your manhood. At any rate you really need to learn to stop generalising.

Lets talk statistics, statistics, unlike assumptions, can be used to back up an argument. Statistically women are preforming at a higher standard than men in university, we are most certainly both interested in serious matters and capable of discussing them.

So you may have guessed by now that I am one of these young women you talk about. Care to retract your bullsh*t?

SugarHigh · 29-03-2011 08:32PM

I'm not sure but the women I know do in general have less interests and hobbies than the men I know. Even within in the group it can be difficult to convince the women to try new things and when we finally do they tend to get less involved. We decided to go kayaking and they were really against the idea so they needed a lot of convincing and then they basically just stood at the side and watched the men take part. However reading their facebook pages the next day they were far more enthusiastic about it than they were at the time and they uploaded a lot of photos which made it seem like they were more involved than they were.

They're nice people but they can be a bit dull. Anything outside of going out eating and drinking is almost looked at as a weird thing to be doing.

Donald_ducked · 29-03-2011 08:34PM

looksee wrote: »

Just because you are talking about heavy and serious matters doesn't prove you are doing it intelligently. Its just as easy to do uninformed waffling about politics as it is to twitter on about clothes and children's attainments.

Oh I'm not saying that the conversations are always intelligent debates or anything like it. I'm just saying that we do sometimes talk about these issues whereas the girls I know don't

I'm just interested to see why men and women converse about such different things while out with friends

Donald_ducked · 29-03-2011 08:45PM

wonderfulname wrote: »

Okay I'll talk in equally general terms, most of the time I find that men are incapable of assimilating new information or having a logical discussion, this is because they believe they are always right, most of the time they aren't, most of the time its because they prefer to oversimplify a brief overview of something that they read in the paper ratherr than actually understand it.

Basically you and your mates just talk sh*t at the bar.

Now the above isn't true, there are a lot of men like that, but there are more men who aren't, and I cannot say either way which category you fall into.

So maybe the few women you converse with are as you describe? Maybe you aren't presenting yourself as capable of intelligent conversation to the women you meet? Or maybe you are simply ignoring the existence of women who happily and coherently discuss such topics for the purpose of this thread/ preservation of your manhood. At any rate you really need to learn to stop generalising.

Lets talk statistics, statistics, unlike assumptions, can be used to back up an argument. Statistically women are preforming at a higher standard than men in university, we are most certainly both interested in serious matters and capable of discussing them.

So you may have guessed by now that I am one of these young women you talk about. Care to retract your bullsh*t?

Retract what bull****?!

I don't think for 1 second that men who talk about the issues I've mentioned above are more intelligent than women, not at all

What I find interesting is that in general men do talk about these topics more often, even if it's just pub talk. I just wanted to discuss why this is

wonderfulname · 29-03-2011 08:46PM

irishh_bob wrote: »

the OP came across as altogether mild manered , the same cant be said for wonderfullname

Well I'm sorry if you feel that way, but I don't think random generalisations should form the basis of an opinion, if a rational argument had been presented I would have been nicer.

MagicMarker · 29-03-2011 08:47PM

Donald_ducked wrote: »

Retract what bull****?!

I don't think for 1 second that men who talk about the issues I've mentioned above are more intelligent than women, not at all

What I find interesting is that in general men do talk about these topics more often, even if it's just pub talk. I just wanted to talk about why this is

Not in general, in your opinion.

There's a difference.

looksee · 29-03-2011 08:47PM

Someone's got anger issues

Someone could maybe try and help prove the OP's point by actually arguing the topic instead of resorting to patronage. Funny how often that happens. Maybe there is a reason why men don't hear women having 'serious' discussions.

SugarHigh · 29-03-2011 08:57PM

wonderfulname wrote: »

Well I'm sorry if you feel that way, but I don't think random generalisations should form the basis of an opinion, if a rational argument had been presented I would have been nicer.

The basis of his opinion was his experience among his friends. I don't see how that's "random".

Donald_ducked · 29-03-2011 09:00PM

MagicMarker wrote: »

Not in general, in your opinion.

There's a difference.

Well all I can go off is what I've experienced, and in general a higher % of men do talk about these issues, just like a higher % of men talk about football

Permabear · 29-03-2011 09:02PM

This post has been deleted.

wonderfulname · 29-03-2011 09:26PM

SugarHigh wrote: »

The basis of his opinion was his experience among his friends. I don't see how that's "random".

Donald_ducked wrote: »

Well all I can go off is what I've experienced, and in general a higher % of men do talk about these issues, just like a higher % of men talk about football

Experience amongst friends does not count as evidence for a point. In general my experience is the exact opposite, so if experiences in general make for a valid argument then which of us is right? In this instance we cannot both be right.

I know that my own experience is down to who I choose to associate with, the same is true of yours.

Now if you can find something concrete from which the same conclusions may be drawn then you have something.
For example men's interest in football can be shown to be greater than women's, you can do so by citing match attendance, pub attendance at match times and merchandise sales amongst others. From these you can deduce that men are more likely to discuss football.

So how are you going to back up your assumptions?

SugarHigh · 29-03-2011 09:29PM

wonderfulname wrote: »

Experience amongst friends does not count as evidence for a point. In general my experience is the exact opposite, so if experiences in general make for a valid argument then which of us is right? In this instance we cannot both be right.

I know that my own experience is down to who I choose to associate with, the same is true of yours.

Now if you can find something concrete from which the same conclusions may be drawn then you have something.
For example men's interest in football can be shown to be greater than women's, you can do so by citing match attendance, pub attendance at match times and merchandise sales amongst others. From these you can deduce that men are more likely to discuss football.

So how are you going to back up your assumptions?

You do realise opinions don't have to be factual?

There are less women in Politics so this would imply there are less women interested in politics.

wonderfulname · 29-03-2011 09:51PM

SugarHigh wrote: »

You do realise opinions don't have to be factual?

There are less women in Politics so this would imply there are less women interested in politics.

Thats a bit oversimplified and fails to take into account any other reasons
Figures from the states:

In examining previous presidential election years prior to 2008, the numbers make this point clear. Of the total voting age population:
In 2004, 60.1% of women and 56.3% of men voted.
That's 67.3 million women and 58.5 million men - a difference of 8.8 million.
In 2000, 56.2% of women and 53.1% of men voted.
That's 59.3 million women and 51.5 million men - a difference of 7.8 million.
In 1996, 55.5% of women and 52.8% of men voted.
That's 56.1 million women amd 48.9 million men - a difference of 7.2 million.

So does this mean that women are marginally more interested in politics than men? Nope, just that they care more about having their say on election day.

And no, opinions don't have to be based on fact but if the OP makes a point I am entitled to ask him to back it up.

liah · 29-03-2011 09:58PM

I'm a 23 year old female and I talk about and debate all of the topics you mentioned, probably more than I talk about anything else, to be honest.

Find different female friends.

SugarHigh · 29-03-2011 10:08PM

wonderfulname wrote: »

Thats a bit oversimplified and fails to take into account any other reasons
Figures from the states: So does this mean that women are marginally more interested in politics than men? Nope, just that they care more about having their say on election day.

And no, opinions don't have to be based on fact but if the OP makes a point I am entitled to ask him to back it up.

His point was based on his own experience that is what he's using to back up his opinions.

If I say "ime Americans are more opinionated than Irish people" do I have to google a survey to back this up? I don't see why every opinion has to be backed up by a google search, it would turn every discussion into a dull google fight. If you're in a pub and someone shares an opinion do you demand they go home and google a study to back it up?:D

If someone shares an opinion you don't agree with than simply disagree and share your own. This is known as a discussion, have fun.:)

Boskowski · 29-03-2011 11:24PM

FWIW most women I know only ever talk between them about stuff very close to them. They talk about their friends, their family, their work. I don't ever hear them talking about current affairs or sports or anything going on outside their own world.
That's the OH and her friends and my female colleagues and a few female friends.
The other day a few of us were sitting in the canteen and discussing the possibility of a nuclear desaster in Japan. Couple of female co-workers caught some snippets and mocked us talking about some 2012 Armageddon end of the world stuff. No, we said, were talking about the earthquake and the nuclear plant in Japan. Oh I don't listen to news was there one recently, was the answer.

That's in an office environment where everybody has at least a college degree.
Coincidence? Yes. Anecdotal? Absolutely. Is there a pattern? I think so.
I'm not getting into petty stuff saying women only show interest in clothes and gossip and men are interested in high flying things 'cos they're not. But there's def'ny a difference. A lot of women seem to live more in a local cocoon and if it doesn't affect them directly they have no interest in it.

30-03-2011 12:47AM

Have you considered that as a member of the opposite sex, your conversation with women is bound to include more casual topics and follow different structures? It is possible that women talk about philosophy just as much as you, but don't do it with men.

I'm about to make a whole load of generalisations, but for the sake of argument bear with me. In my experience, it's true that women don't talk about serious issues as often, but also in my experience, when women try, they get shot down far quicker than their male counterparts, and lectured to far more often than men of the same opinion.

I'm female, doing a science course, member of a political party, have an interest in many of the topics mentioned here. Yet I rarely enter into conversation with men about such things as I know the reaction I'll get. I don't get many chances to talk about this stuff with women, but when I do, I find them to be far more accommodating of differing opinions and can argue their position in a more adaptable way. Most of the guys I know, best case scenario is they just repeat their view until I give up, and then act like they've won something. Worst case scenario a few of them gang up on me, lecture me, laugh at my opinion and leave me wishing I had just acted the dumb blonde.

On one occasion I was down the pub and some of the lads were talking about Plato's Republic. I happen to have this on my shelf at home, and made a comment about it. I got a reply that both shot me down in a pretty hostile way and also made clear to me that the shooter down in question hadn't actually read it. I didn't bother fighting my corner. Another time we were all a bit drunk and there was a lull in conversation and I said something about do you ever think about how often statistics are used in a pointless way. About how even though something might happen 90 times out of 100, to you on an individual basis, the chance is 50:50, as the outcome for other people doesn't actually effect you. (I'm not saying this was a logical point to make, it was just a comment made after a few cans) I was ganged up on by a few of the lads, accused of not believing in maths, and not allowed to explain my point. I'm ok with being the only person in a room that has a certain opinion, and I'm ok with being argued against, in fact I quite enjoy being argued against, but I've never seen a guy get the same hostile, patronising reaction that both I and other female friends have gotten after voicing an opinion. At this stage I'm so used to these kinds of reactions that I don't have the patience to try talking about serious things in new company, as it's just not worth it.

SugarHigh · 30-03-2011 01:59AM

true-or-false wrote: »

Have you considered that as a member of the opposite sex, your conversation with women is bound to include more casual topics and follow different structures? It is possible that women talk about philosophy just as much as you, but don't do it with men.

I'm about to make a whole load of generalisations, but for the sake of argument bear with me. In my experience, it's true that women don't talk about serious issues as often, but also in my experience, when women try, they get shot down far quicker than their male counterparts, and lectured to far more often than men of the same opinion.

I'm female, doing a science course, member of a political party, have an interest in many of the topics mentioned here. Yet I rarely enter into conversation with men about such things as I know the reaction I'll get. I don't get many chances to talk about this stuff with women, but when I do, I find them to be far more accommodating of differing opinions and can argue their position in a more adaptable way. Most of the guys I know, best case scenario is they just repeat their view until I give up, and then act like they've won something. Worst case scenario a few of them gang up on me, lecture me, laugh at my opinion and leave me wishing I had just acted the dumb blonde.

On one occasion I was down the pub and some of the lads were talking about Plato's Republic. I happen to have this on my shelf at home, and made a comment about it. I got a reply that both shot me down in a pretty hostile way and also made clear to me that the shooter down in question hadn't actually read it. I didn't bother fighting my corner. Another time we were all a bit drunk and there was a lull in conversation and I said something about do you ever think about how often statistics are used in a pointless way. About how even though something might happen 90 times out of 100, to you on an individual basis, the chance is 50:50, as the outcome for other people doesn't actually effect you. (I'm not saying this was a logical point to make, it was just a comment made after a few cans) I was ganged up on by a few of the lads, accused of not believing in maths, and not allowed to explain my point. I'm ok with being the only person in a room that has a certain opinion, and I'm ok with being argued against, in fact I quite enjoy being argued against, but I've never seen a guy get the same hostile, patronising reaction that both I and other female friends have gotten after voicing an opinion. At this stage I'm so used to these kinds of reactions that I don't have the patience to try talking about serious things in new company, as it's just not worth it.

I'm not sure so sure women get shot down quicker or harsher but I wouldn't be confident enough to completely deny it either. If a guy said what you did he would definitely be slagged over it, honestly he could hear about it for weeks. I think you are obviously going to be more sensitive to what happens to yourself so you might give it more prominence in your head. We'd rip into each much harsher than we would rip into a woman.

As for the ganging up thing that happens to everyone at some stage so I'm not sure how you could state it was happening because you were female. It's likely they didn't feel like they were ganging up on you and it's also likely you've done it to someone else in the past without realising it.

I find them to be far more accommodating of differing opinions and can argue their position in a more adaptable way. Most of the guys I know, best case scenario is they just repeat their view until I give up, and then act like they've won something.

I'd agree with this that men are more likely to view it as a competition. I have though been in a position where a woman say's something similar to what you said about probability and no matter how much you simplify it's almost as if she's trying not to understand you or that simple laws of maths don't really apply in the real world to them. This does also happen with men but not as much ime.

Donald_ducked · 30-03-2011 04:08AM

wonderfulname wrote: »

Experience amongst friends does not count as evidence for a point.

It's not just experience with friends though. It includes people from college, cousins from different parts of the country/world, friends of family, work collegues and people from all walks of life. I'm not just basing my theory on one small demographic

It is impossible to dig up figures on this issue because they don't exist. All I can do is go off my experiences in life and I genuinely do believe, based on what I've seen, a higher percentage of men discuss these issues among each other. You don't think so, that's fair enough

I'm not in anyway trying to imply that men are smarter or superior because of this and I'm not saying women don't discuss these things. I just think men(especially the younger generation) do so more often. This is all my opinion of course

30-03-2011 09:00AM

Donald_ducked wrote: »

Hi,

I was reading the political forum recently and saw an interesting topic with regards to women and their lack of political interest. This got me thinking and the more I thought about it the more I realised that it's not just politics most younger women don't really have an interest in, but a lot of other important topics such as philosophy, technology, current affairs and topics which need deeper thought like spirituality and the meaning of life. Obviously I'm generalising here but I definitely feel men talk about these topics with their friends far more than women do

I'm 22 and my male friends often talk about politics and would have a general interest and knowledge about the goings on in the country. Even when we're out having a few pints these issues would crop up from time to time, obviously we talk about football and the likes aswel but it wouldn't be unusual for something heavier to come up in conversation, especially when there is alcohol involve and people get more opinionated! The same can be said when there is a family gathering in our house, the men usually end up at one end of the table for a while talking about politics,current affairs or even space! while the women converse about issues that arn't as heavy or serious

If I was to even bring up some of the topics I've mentioned above to most of the girls I hang around with, they would look at me like I've got two heads! That said, there are always exceptions to the rule

What is your take on this?

I think I must be living in some crazy parallel universe then, because this isn't my experience at all. Maybe you should find different female friends?

irishh_bob · 30-03-2011 09:47AM

wonderfulname wrote: »

Well I'm sorry if you feel that way, but I don't think random generalisations should form the basis of an opinion, if a rational argument had been presented I would have been nicer.

you know something else that would have been nicer , if you had,nt jumped across the table and clawed the OP,s face off for having the audacity to offer an opinion he seemed to genuinly hold and politley offer i might add , seems impossible nowadays to voice and opinion on any group ( particulary women or minoritys of some kind ) without hearing shrieking accusations of generalising , the PC thought police are borderline nazi like in thier clammering to silence debate on certain issues

fatmammycat · 30-03-2011 09:54AM

irishh_bob wrote: »

you know something else that would have been nicer , if you had,nt jumped across the table and clawed the OP,s face off for having the audacity to offer an opinion he seemed to genuinly hold and politley offer i might add , seems impossible nowadays to voice and opinion on any group without hearing shrieking accusations of generalising

What might have been nicer still was if you had responded to Wonderfulname's response without using 'clawing' or 'shrieking' in your reply.

OP, as someone else said, find more interesting female friends. Most of the women I know are interested in a whole slew of topics, as are most of the men.

Eve_Dublin · 30-03-2011 09:57AM

wonderfulname wrote: »

Okay I'll talk in equally general terms, most of the time I find that men are incapable of assimilating new information or having a logical discussion, this is because they believe they are always right, most of the time they aren't, most of the time its because they prefer to oversimplify a brief overview of something that they read in the paper ratherr than actually understand it.

true-or-false wrote: »

Have you considered that as a member of the opposite sex, your conversation with women is bound to include more casual topics and follow different structures? It is possible that women talk about philosophy just as much as you, but don't do it with men.

I'm about to make a whole load of generalisations, but for the sake of argument bear with me. In my experience, it's true that women don't talk about serious issues as often, but also in my experience, when women try, they get shot down far quicker than their male counterparts, and lectured to far more often than men of the same opinion.

These were my experiences as well when I was a younger woman. I would discuss politics with my female friends but felt I was often talked down to or even talked over by young guys who thought they knew it all.

I did a Media degree with mainly guys and it was painful to sit in a conversation of guys and not be listened to. They talked about music and films but obviously felt it was too high-brow for us women as we were never asked our opinion when most of us would have similar interests being the kind of degree it was it drew those kinds of people, both male and female. I used to just get up and walk off.

Even now, I teach English in Spain and often have political discussions with my students (ages ranging from 25-55). The men in the class would very often talk among themselves when the ratio of women to men is about the same in most classes. The women wouldn't get a word in edge-ways and I constantly have to shut them up so I can hear from the women...all of whom have their own very valid and intelligent opinions. If I didn't do that they'd be ignored and talked over as if they weren't there.

Honestly, it's your bunch of female friends. I've met just as many guys who talk about topics of no substance as those who do.

Eve_Dublin · 30-03-2011 10:03AM

Donald_ducked wrote: »

It's not just experience with friends though. It includes people from college, cousins from different parts of the country/world, friends of family, work collegues and people from all walks of life. I'm not just basing my theory on one small demographic

It is impossible to dig up figures on this issue because they don't exist. All I can do is go off my experiences in life and I genuinely do believe, based on what I've seen, a higher percentage of men discuss these issues among each other. You don't think so, that's fair enough

I'm not in anyway trying to imply that men are smarter or superior because of this and I'm not saying women don't discuss these things. I just think men(especially the younger generation) do so more often. This is all my opinion of course

It's an opinion but difficult to agree when it hasn't been my experience, so the debate will be some people in here stating your wrong because of their experiences. Your not stating a widely held opinion here, just your own opinion. And yes, your demographic IS small and is not at all representative.

Ash.J.Williams · 30-03-2011 10:05AM

I've noticed it too, and i guess the female percentage of our government would suggest the same.

Permabear · 30-03-2011 10:28AM

This post has been deleted.

30-03-2011 10:42AM

SugarHigh wrote: »

If a guy said what you did he would definitely be slagged over it, honestly he could hear about it for weeks. I think you are obviously going to be more sensitive to what happens to yourself so you might give it more prominence in your head. We'd rip into each much harsher than we would rip into a woman.

As for the ganging up thing that happens to everyone at some stage so I'm not sure how you could state it was happening because you were female. It's likely they didn't feel like they were ganging up on you and it's also likely you've done it to someone else in the past without realising it.

I'm the type that says stupid stuff all the time, and I'll go "crap did I really just say that?!" and the lads will rip into me and I'll feel like and idiot. And it can last a long time. But it's ok, because I said something stupid and they slagged me for it. Banter and slagging are perfectly acceptable in my book, and I would be one of the girls in the group that get's slagged just as much as the guys (they know I've the skin for it), but when I'm voicing an opinion such as the ones mentioned, it's not banter or slagging. It's not an embarrassing moment. It's a hostile, attack-like reaction, which is systematically towards women and not towards men. It's not in my mind, and it's not because I'm sensitive. I'm not saying it's absolutely definitely because I'm a woman, but it's not "at some stage". It's every time, and it's constantly women and not men. Can you offer an alternative conclusion to that evidence?

I'm not saying my male friends are sexist. They're (well most of them) really not. I'm pretty sure it's not a conscious decision to ignore/berate my opinion, but a natural inclination towards thinking that A) I couldn't possibly know what I'm talking about and

that they're smarter and more well read than me. This is what I think results in the ignore/attack/lecture response. It's like being in secondary school, where you feel like the years below you are all stupid and you want to get in with the years ahead. Except the years below here are women and the years ahead are men. And that people don't seem to have grown out of it like they did their secondary school mindset.

Ash.J.Williams · 30-03-2011 10:44AM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I can identify with the irish part of this post. The "taxi driver" mentality...(no offence to all taxi drivers...)

Younger women and their lack of conversation about certain issues

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