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Should we go Nuclear?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 861 ✭✭✭yawnstretch


    Japan will not be another Chernobyl. It is a little reminder about how dangerous this material will be to future generations and the nightmare legacy we bequeath them.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Hokkaido ( the big island up north) in Japan has around the same population as Ireland and the same Demand...6000MW or so. 2000Mw of this generation is Nuclear in units of 500Mw 500Mw and most recently 1000Mw in one unit. These three units are all in one single plant named Tomari .

    Of the remaining 4000Mw of generation some 1000Mw is Hydro and the remainder a mixture, Hokkaido has active coal mines. They have some interconnection to the main island, Honshu, to the south.

    It is also the windiest part of Japan :) As a standalone specimen I commend examination of Hokkaido to the grid anorackys in here :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    What do people here think of the Japanese government's warning today to people to people in Tokyo (where radiation levels have started to rise) 'to stay indoors' as the danger of contamination grows. To me it's reminiscent of the old Irish Cold War nuclear booklet which told you 'if caught out in the open to turn your back to the blast'.......

    Here's a page from the booklet. :rolleyes:

    itsanemergency.png


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    What do people here think of the Japanese government's warning today to people to people in Tokyo (where radiation levels have started to rise) 'to stay indoors' as the danger of contamination grows.

    To get an idea of why the Japanese government are advising people to stay indoors read this analysis of the management of the situation in Fukushima (written beofre the fuel rods became exposed to air again). It 3 pages long so I'm not going to quote the article but here's a quote form the article to explain what's happening. Basically with the failure of the cooling systems in 3 of the reactors, they have to use saltwater which is creating some radioactive isotopes.
    The normal systems use very pure de-mineralised water, and the plant operators couldn't get a supply of this running again at these reactors. Water adulterated with other things – such as sea salt – is less desirable, as its use means that other radionuclides are generated in small quantities

    To my knowledge the containment vessels are still intact (I haven't seen/heard any reports that that suggest otherwise). The explosions were due to intentional venting of steam that built up in the reactor, which due to the high temperatures contained hydrogen and oxygen in a mixture - which for anyone that can remember first year chemistry is very explosive (and a reason why we will not have hydrogen gas power vehicles, far too explosive and bulky).

    The danger is that the fuel rods will start to burn (and also melt - which should be ok the containment vessels have held up to something far greater than they were supposedly designed to take, they should be able to withstand this), which will create problems with cleaning up the facility - but I don't think we're talking anything like Chernobyl.

    The interesting thing about the times article is that it states
    In Japan, it was not the nuclear parts of the station that went wrong, but conventional ones.

    Anyone wanna bet that mobile generators are not going to be sufficient in future?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    @antoobrien

    there is no point trying to reason with Judgement Day
    this is a third thread where he put his fingers in the ear and sang "lalala nuclear evil la"

    If no amount of facts and well written posts can convince someone whose mind is made up based on sensationalist media and fear of what they don't understand due to unwillingness to absorb information, then there is no point trying


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    @antoobrien

    there is no point trying to reason with Judgement Day
    this is a third thread where he put his fingers in the ear and sang "lalala nuclear evil la"

    If no amount of facts and well written posts can convince someone whose mind is made up based on sensationalist media and fear of what they don't understand due to unwillingness to absorb information, then there is no point trying

    Likewise this is the umteenth thread that you are contributing to on this subject but you still haven't answered my question regarding your own expertise in these matters - I have at least admitted my lack of knowledge but I am concerned.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    What does that have to do with the thread?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    What does that have to do with the thread?

    Why not enlighten us all? :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    Given that most of the radiactive released so far is Iodine-131 which has a half life of 8 days it makes a huge amount of sense for people to stay indoors. As a particle it can only penetrate about 1-2mm's. Why they use it in radiotherapy for treating Thyroid cancer. Of course this is why they give out Potasium-Iodine tablets. You flood peoples thyroid with standard Iodine-127 thus blocking/reducing the uptake of Iodine-131.

    The half-life is important bit most people don't realise. In above case after 32 days 93.5% of the Iodine-131 has decayed through radioactive-decay to non-radioactive substances. After 64 days you end up with 99.6% decay. Obviously if the containment was broken and their was an explosion in the fuel you end up with Uranium and Plutonium dust been sprinkled all over the place along with stuff like Strontium-90 (30 year half life). This is key difference with Chernobyl. The soviets didn't build any containment building they just stuck the reactor in a standard non-reinforced concrete building. The steam explosion blew the roof off this and the reactor suffered a fire. Putting a radioactive plume 20km's into the atmosphere.

    What's interesting here obviously is the failure of the coolant system to protect the containment unit. As it's a Gen II reactor (over 40year old design) they used diesel backup generators to keep the pumps going if there was a power failure. However the Tsunami took out the generators. Modern designs (Gen III+) have passive safety features in this regard.

    The Westinghouse AP1000 design which is been built in China is designed that in the event of Reactor shutdown (the japanese reactors were shut down succesfully) that air-cooling is sufficient alone to deal with the heat from "radioactive decay". Otherwise there is gravity fed water tanks with sufficient water for 3 days (72 hours) which can be manually refilled. The bit about gravity fed is important as it doesn't require any external source of power to supply coolant water into containment building.

    In general the new designs are considerably simplified from those developed in the 60's thus reducing risks. To think nuclear engineering hasn't moved with the times over the last 40years would be a mistake.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    Thank you for a reasonably understandable explanation. No graphs or rafts of statistics or arrogant dismissals! However, my own feeling is that the reason that the Japanese government are advising people to stay indoors is that they are worried about panic and the highways being jammed up with fleeing citizens - I hope that I will be proved wrong.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    Thank you for a reasonably understandable explanation. No graphs or rafts of statistics or arrogant dismissals! However, my own feeling is that the reason that the Japanese government are advising people to stay indoors is that they are worried about panic and the highways being jammed up with fleeing citizens - I hope that I will be proved wrong.

    Valid enough reason. Though I wouldn't be surprised if the Japanese in general are better prepared then most people when it comes to such things. After all they've been training for a major earthquake under Tokyo for years (this one was 200km's offshore). This however is one of most powerful earthquakes in the last 100 years. To put in perspective the earthquake that killed 200,000 people in 1923 in Tokyo was a 7.9, if this quake had been under Tokyo it would have been devastating as it was about 10 times the size of the 1923 quake.

    In general I think the issues we were seeing are mainly due to Tsunami, from what I'm reading the Tsunami topped the seawall at the plant. The damage to the coolant system is due to this Tsunami and not due to damage that occurred from shaking during the quake itself. The Japanese reactors are designed to do an auto-shutdown in the event of earthquake. However even if you do shutdown the reactor there's going to be residual heat from radioactive decay. Without a way of keeping this cool you end up with the fuel rods melting.

    The explosions occurred after they fed sea-water into the building that surrounds the primary containment. Given level of heat it actually caused the water to break into it's component Hydrogen and Oxygen. Result of course is that Hydrogen is extremely explosive (watch the footage of Hindenburg airship). This is what blew the roof off the structure.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,323 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    Basically it looks like even if their temperatures are brought back under control about 2GW of generation at Fukushima I is gone due to the infusion of seawater and boric acid. Another 5GW or so has been SCRAMmed at Fukushima II. According to Bloomberg total shutdowns are 11 reactors and 9.7GW of generation. That's what - about twice Ireland's total generating capacity, in the Republic anyway?

    Japan also has a complication where half their grid is 50Hz and half 60Hz - while there is interconnection nobody seems to have thought so much northern power on the east network could be lost in one shot.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    Came across this fairly neat animation of the plume of Iodine-131, it's originally from Der Spiegel. The prevailing winds are from North West blowing most of the radioactive plume out to sea.

    image-191816-galleryV9-nhjp.gif


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    Germany is now hurriedly going un-nuclear, according to this.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    Ah yes politics of fear, god bless em ... ... with more coal burning.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    Tremelo wrote: »
    Germany is now hurriedly going un-nuclear, according to this.

    Well the Greens (along with SPD) had announce a phase out in 2000, basically they wouldn't build new plants once the old ones had reached end of life. Merkel decided to halt this policy, of course now with the accident in Japan and about to get a drumming in further "local elections" she's decided that she actually wants a phase out. It's sort of similar to her going on about our "Corporation taxes" it's pure optics to get her through the Lander elections.

    Of course Germany currently gets about 25% of it's electricity from Nuclear with over 20GigaWatts of installed plant. They aren't going to replace that with wind turbines so the only other option is to build lots of coal plants (about 25 Moneypoints will do) given the abundance of coal (in particular lignite) in Germany.

    To put this in comparison Moneypoint puts out about 4million tonnes of CO² a year. If they were to just use coal to replace the installed Nuclear plant you are looking at an additional 75-100million tonnes of CO² been emitted into the atmosphere.

    Going by EPA report a gas station such as Dublin bay power puts out about 1,184,404 tonnes of CO² for 400MW, so 20GW of gas could potentially put 60 million tonnes of CO² into the atmosphere. Of course in that case you got to hope Putin doesn't have a dispute with the Ukraine again.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    Here's a good diagram posted on XKCD regarding radiation doses.

    radiation.png


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    Fukushima's toxic legacy: Ignorance and fear is a 3 page article discussing what has been going on in Fukushima over the past week or so and the press reaction to it. I've posted an earlier story from this guy (he is rather verbose), who is rather annoyed at how the situation has been reported (describes it as scaremongering).
    Hysteria rages unchecked as minor incident winds down

    Events at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear powerplant in Japan continue to unfold, with workers there steadily restoring redundancy and containment measures across the site. It remains highly unlikely that the workers themselves will suffer any measurable health consequences from radiation, and – continued media scaremongering notwithstanding – effects on the public look set to be nil.
    Operations at the plant itself continued [1] yesterday, with powerful mobile pumping equipment set up at both the No 3 and No 4 reactors there to refill the spent-fuel pools at those buildings.
    Water levels in those pools were thought to be at low levels last week, raising the possibility of damage to the spent rods from their own internal heating – though this is hugely less than that present in a reactor core, and experts have differed on the point of whether such damage would actually be significant. All sides agree, however, that with the three damaged cores effectively stabilised using seawater cooling the pools had become the greatest potential source of radiation at the site. Efforts to restore a deep layer of water over the spent rods have been the main focus of operations at Fukushima Daiichi since the middle of last week.
    Both pools are now being continually topped up using mobile vehicles capable of squirting large amounts of water into the pools from 20m+ heights, the vehicles left running unattended to reduce the radiation doses sustained by their operators. At first a vehicle (and mobile Super Pump Trucks) supplied by Tokyo fire department's elite Hyper Rescue unit was employed, but some reports indicate that this was damaged by being left running for 13 hours at the weekend. Additional vehicles normally used to pump concrete at high-rise construction sites are now in play and cooling of the pools continues.
    Personnel were briefly evacuated from the area of No 3 during the afternoon yesterday (UK time), when white smoke was seen coming from the reactor building. This could have been a sign of hydrogen being emitted, presaging a hydrogen explosion of the sort which wracked the site in the days following the quake. However the smoke – which could equally have been steam resulting from pool cooling water pouring down through the building – then declined. Radiation levels and pressure/temperature readings from the No 3 core remained steady and workers returned to No 3 as the smoke emissions ceased.
    Meanwhile efforts to restore grid power from off site continued, with power provided at all reactors as of the latest reports. Nos 5 and 6 are now considered fully safe, with cores at cold shutdown status and spent-fuel pools running normally. Engineers are still restoring services including instruments and cooling at 1 and 2: it has been reported that the spent-fuel pool at No 2 is now being topped up using water from a fire engine connected to its usual cooling pipework. External power lines have been connected to switching equipment serving Nos 3 and 4 but plant operator TEPCO doesn't expect to fully restore power there until later in the week.
    Radiation levels measured inside the plant continue to be such as to require workers there to carefully manage their dose rates, but not such as to mean any long-term health worries. Workers are permitted to sustain a total annual dose of 250 millisievert before being withdrawn from the operation, which is not such as to cause them or their families any concern. As only small numbers of personnel are involved, and cancer is a very common cause of death, future investigations decades from now will almost certainly not be able to attribute any cases of cancer among the workers to service during the current incident.
    Not only is this not Chernobyl – even Chernobyl was not Chernobyl

    Radiation near the reactors rises to 2-3 millisievert/hour during planned venting operations from the damaged cores, but workers are pulled back ahead of these. In general their exposure rates are much lower, permitting them to keep doing shifts inside the plant for months if need be – though as soon as the situation is downgraded from a lifesaving operation to one intended merely to save equipment, which could be quite soon, the annual exposure limit will probably be cut to 100 millisievert. So far only one worker is known to have surpassed this reduced level, which is the point at which – should large numbers of people be exposed – a slightly higher cancer risk later in life becomes measurable.
    The main risk to the Fukushima workers is from ordinary fires and explosions, of the same sort which have been seen all across the stricken region, which have so far injured 14 people on site but killed none. The quake itself did kill one nuclear worker (at a different powerplant, Fukushima Daini) who was in a crane cab when it struck, and two others have been missing since the tsunami hit. Nobody has been hurt at any nuclear site since last Tuesday.
    Outside the plant, radiation levels are being monitored at many locations by a variety of Japanese and international agencies. Thus far the highest reported level was a dose rate of 0.16 millisievert/hour picked up by an IAEA team at the edge of the 20km evacuation zone yesterday, widely reported under scaremongering headlines [2] but nonetheless insignificant. Such a level would have to be sustained for a month continuously before any increased cancer risk occurred. Readers should also bear in mind that this increased risk would be a tiny fraction of a single percentage point; ie you have say a 25 per cent chance of dying of cancer one day anyway, varying mainly on such factors as whether you smoke. If that IAEA reading of radiation somehow stayed steady (it cannot, as most of the isotopes causing it have short half-lives) and you remained outdoors at that location continuously for at least a month, your cancer chance would then be 25.0001 per cent or similar.
    There is no indication that the IAEA reading was anything more than a brief spike. Japanese monitoring teams also reported a brief rise in levels to 0.05 millisievert/hour at one location near the plant.
    In summary, no radiation levels of any public-health concern have been detected beyond the plant fence.
    There also exists the related issue of food contamination, which has also stoked huge levels of public fear in the last 48 hours or so since initial sampling results became available. Again, however, absolutely nothing of any concern has been revealed so far, though the Japanese government has bowed to the hysteria and instituted a precautionary, temporary ban on spinach and kakina (another leafy vegetable) from four provinces. The government has also requested, though not required, that milk from Fukushima province should not be shipped.
    Chief cabinet secretary Yukiyo Edano, announcing [3] the measures, stated yesterday that it was perfectly safe to consume the named products, in which very low levels of radioactive iodine and caesium had been found.
    Analysis

    This seems very credible. Based on experience from Chernobyl the only possible public danger is that from the radioactive isotope iodine-131. Children and young adults who ingested small amounts of this in milk during the weeks following the Chernobyl incident subsequently had a very slightly enhanced risk of thyroid cancer even though they had never been exposed to dangerously high radiation levels: this was because the body, especially if one's diet is low in salt, takes up iodine and concentrates it in the thyroid gland.
    Colossal amounts of iodine-131 were hurled high into the atmosphere when the Chernobyl core melted down, burst open, blew up and then burned while molten and open to the sky for days on end. It's now thought [4] that some 18 million youngsters across the region consumed dangerously contaminated milk as a result, containing iodine levels thousands of times higher than those seen now in Japan, and that as a result their chance of getting cancer increased from say 25 per cent (or whatever it would normally have been) to 25.02 per cent. Death rates didn't rise correspondingly as thyroid cancer can normally be cured.
    This remains the only radiological effect of the Chernobyl disaster on people outside the plant itself, though so many scare stories were and still are circulated about it that one will still be subjected to a barrage of abuse for saying so. It is now an officially acknowledged fact that the great bulk of medical damage to the public after Chernobyl resulted from mass panic and associated psychological stress, not from the accident itself.
    Nuclear 'stress tests'? What, like hitting an obsolete plant with a massive disaster far beyond what it's meant to take, you mean?

    The cores at Fukushima have remained sealed inside thick metal and concrete barriers, and while they have suffered some heat damage they have not melted down, far less been on fire, melted down and laid open to the sky as with the case of the core at Chernobyl. Tiny amounts of iodine-131 have escaped carried by cooling steam.
    According to the Japanese health-ministry calculations, one would need to consume food containing iodine-131 in the levels so far seen for 14 years before you had even the tiniest increased chance of cancer. You couldn't possibly do that, as iodine-131 has not been generated at Fukushima for eight days – since the cores scrammed as the quake hit – and it only has a half-life of eight days. It will have declined to negligible levels within weeks no matter where it is – in a cow, on a spinach leaf, in your body, wherever. (One should also note that the spent fuel rods in the pools, not having undergone fission for months, don't have significant amounts of iodine in them.)
    Against this background the initial Japanese decision to do nothing at all about food shipments looks like the correct one. Unfortunately public hysteria has been fanned by ridiculous statements from overseas and UN officials, forcing the present limited climbdown.
    Barring some new and unforeseen event at the powerplant, it seems clear that there will be no measurable radiological effects on anybody as a result of the quake and tsunami. Unfortunately the psychological consequences – almost entirely a result of fearmongering and bad reporting in the media worldwide – seem set to be measurable. Mainstream media finally have some decent analysis here and there [5], but every minor development in the case is still reported on breathlessly, in a panic-stricken tone. Even those who seek to give a calmer view are still, a week after the quake, writing things [6] like this:
    Those at real risk now are the truly brave technicians inside the plant trying to cool it down: the Fukushima 50. They will almost certainly receive fatal doses of radiation as they work around the clock.
    No, they won't: nor even such doses as to measurably affect their health. Nobody else looks to be affected either. But the hysteria seems set to go on and on, even among relatively impartial and calm-minded observers – who remain rare. Asinine talk of an "apocalypse" and a "situation out of control" by the EU Energy Commissioner has drawn condemnation even from the French – who themselves have been guilty of inflating the seriousness of the Fukushima situation over recent days. (One can't help noticing that Japan is perhaps the main competition facing France in the export market for new reactors, potentially enormous in coming decades.)
    We hear now that Europe is to "stress test" its reactors, and moratoria and safety reviews are to begin in nuclear-powered nations around the world. But any rational observer would have to conclude that reactor technology has just suffered the most severe stress test imaginable, and come through with flying colours in the worst possible situation: aged reactors hit by a natural disaster of unprecedented, colossal scale. The situation really calls for a reduction in nuclear safety bureaucracy, not an increase.
    That would be worth doing, too. Suppose that nuclear power were allowed to be merely, say, 100 or 1,000 times safer than coal or oil (or wind: wind power has already caused scores of deaths [7] in a brief period while at the same time generating very little energy). In that case nuclear would become so cheap as to wipe out carbon emissions and other pollution from electricity production in the advanced nations – and it might also start to make serious cuts into emissions from other sectors such as transport, heating etc, as electrical heat became cheaper than that from gas or oil and cheap juice drove down the expense of EV charging infrastructure.
    Even some really hard-green commentators are starting to realise this [8], as they look into the reality of Fukushima. Meanwhile, even committed carbon sceptics often to be found at the opposite end of the political spectrum (or maybe off at the side somewhere) might yet relish a future in which the free world cared nothing for the price of oil or gas, nor for the opinion of sometimes unsavoury foreign governments on whose territory the supplies are mostly found.
    Everyone might prefer a future in which less was spent on energy overall, and in which the money so spent shifted heavily towards well-paid skilled jobs at home and out of big profit margins for otherwise unimportant tyrannies around the world.
    The possibility remains there for the developed world to move to a vastly superior future which would please almost everybody: greens; energy-security hawks; those primarily concerned about economic health; and those who worry about social justice and wealth distribution and provision of good well-paid jobs (the unions, unsurprisingly, love nuclear [9]).
    But that better future seems set to be denied to us by the effects of fear and ignorance, driven irresistibly forward by standard-format journalism [10]. ®
    Bootnote

    Normally we here on the Reg science desk would have dropped this story days ago – it refers to a very minor aspect of the quake and tsunami disaster, with zero human consequences in and of itself. But the accompanying panic has become a story in its own right, threatening to harm millions and shift government policies disastrously.

    Links

    1. http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/RS-Progress_in_stabilising_Fukushima_Daiichi-2103114.html
    2. http://english.kyodonews.jp/news/2011/03/80057.html
    3. http://english.kyodonews.jp/news/2011/03/80024.html
    4. http://www.iaea.org/newscenter/features/chernobyl-15/thyroid.shtml
    5. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12785274
    6. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1368050/Japan-nuclear-meltdown-Stop-scaremongering-I-swam-sea-round-Sizewell.html
    7. http://www.treehugger.com/files/2009/02/wind-vs-nuclear-energy-wind-power-deemed-far-more-dangerous.php
    8. http://www.monbiot.com/2011/03/21/going-critical/
    9. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03/27/hutton_nuke_resurgence_uk_union_backing/
    10. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/03/11/balanced_journalism/




  • Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    At 5.15 today there was 11MW power being generated by eirgrid 20% of the forecast (65.5MW) and projected to go lower. We have installed wind generation capacity is 1200MW (taken from post 117, if anyone has updated information I'll update this post). The system demand is 3544MW and generally peaks somewhere between 4000MW and 5000MW for march.

    I read an article earlier about the financial results from a UK wind farm provider, who lost money due to the slack winds during the cold snap. To quote the article:
    It's a uniquely inefficient technology. Windmills must be shut down if the wind blows too hard. And, quite often during the December cold snap, wind plants used more electricity than they generated – just when the electricity was needed the most. (Electricity is drawn from the grid for yaw control, lighting, de-icing, pumps and to power the control mechanisms.)

    Bearing in mind the carbon targets that we have signed up to, the problems with the various renewables (they've been discussed on here already) can we afford not to take a serious look at nuclear?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    @antoobrien

    the average installed wind for 2010 was 1500MW, im trying to find the relevant eirgrid publication

    Irish wind energy association give a figure of 1746MW as of 19/07/2010


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,783 ✭✭✭SeanW


    antoobrien wrote: »
    At 5.15 today there was 11MW power being generated by eirgrid 20% of the forecast (65.5MW) and projected to go lower. We have installed wind generation capacity is 1200MW (taken from post 117, if anyone has updated information I'll update this post). The system demand is 3544MW and generally peaks somewhere between 4000MW and 5000MW for march.

    I read an article earlier about the financial results from a UK wind farm provider, who lost money due to the slack winds during the cold snap. To quote the article:


    Bearing in mind the carbon targets that we have signed up to, the problems with the various renewables (they've been discussed on here already) can we afford not to take a serious look at nuclear?
    There's also the likelihood that power demand was very high during the December cold snap. I know my mother had to turn everything electric on - 2 convection/halogen heaters and the immersion, on full whack just to stay alive.

    Good thing she (or anyone else for that matter) wasn't depending on wind turbines ...


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    antoobrien wrote: »
    At 5.15 today there was 11MW power being generated by eirgrid
    I only post those cruel figures on days where the wind generation is in SINGLE digits myself Anto 11MW is a tad excessive. :cool: Installed <cough> Capacity is between 1700MW and 1800MW at present ( from memory no linkeepoos) and which plant can produce 1200MW at Peak ...meaning windy but not TOO windy. Average would be around 600MW in 2010/2011.

    I suspect that backup generation ( gas ) is dimensioned more for average amounts than anything else.

    The 1500MW figure is correct for Onshore Capacity in the South and originates from the IWEA I think...but excludes plant in the north which is on our grid, see this map here for up to date stats. There is another ( from memory) 25MW offshore around Arklow and none off the North.

    Out of this 1700-1800MW records are set for actual generation. This is where the 1200MW figure came from in recent months. This will of course go upwards.

    This entire Fukushima business has not at all altered my oft stated view ( in this forum) of the desirability of our building a reactor ( or two) in the Wylfa plant in Wales for our baseload and energy security requirements in future.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    SeanW wrote: »
    Good thing she (or anyone else for that matter) wasn't depending on wind turbines ...

    The data for 2010 can be downloaded here average generation during 2010 at any half hourly interval which the market operates in was about 19% of average capacity @ 299MW

    This is what Eirgrid say in their projections for winter 2010
    The outlook for the winter period is that the generation capacity (wind? or total??)
    will be sufficient this winter to ensure the appropriate level
    of security of supply standards is maintained in Ireland and
    Northern Ireland.

    For analysis purposes, an overall wind
    capacity credit of 360 MW is assumed for this winter
    The figure ended up to be 290MW with prolonged periods of wind generation in low double figures....


    from the same paper another installed figure for @antoobrien
    There is currently 1,740 MW of wind capacity connected and it
    is expected that an additional 350 - 450 MW will connect up to
    the end of March 2011

    So by now we have well over 2000MW connected


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    ei.sdraob wrote: »

    So by now we have well over 2000MW connected

    The link I gave was up to date as of 11 March, I found another that says it is 1800MW onshore in the south right now. This is in a separate graphic linked below. That would take Onshore South+Onshore North+Offshore to 2000Mw yes.

    http://www.iwea.com/index.cfm/page/barchart

    We are going around the houses here though, Nuclear and Wind are not very or indeed at all substitutable. It would be Wind<>Gas and Nuclear<>Coal or Oil in our case. A new reactor post 2020 would be a replacement for or a supplement to Moneypoint with maybe an uplift in output.

    I retroactively attached a graphic of Installed Wind Capacity in Ireland March 2011 for future reference. Current Onshore Wind Installed Capacity In The South is shown here ...and this changes month on month. System records are around the 60% mark...ie 1200MW recently produced from 2000MW at peak. 60% or so. The 60% figure is rarely reached.

    Average in 2010 may have been against 1800MW installed average during 2010. This is a movable target as we all know and do be careful calculating it.

    Timing wise the present would be a great time to book a reactor...I'd say we would get a jolly good price right now even if the Greens had a conniption ....and I don't want to encourage them bastids in any way!!:D


  • Registered Users Posts: 861 ✭✭✭yawnstretch


    To those saying stuff like "even Chernobyl wasn't Chernobyl", or glossing over the utter devastation radiation wreaked on those who tried to cleanup such disasters - I'm sure you'd be the first brave souls to tackle this material with your bare hands if there was radioactive contamination here.

    I'll just leave this link for you to consider since my comments about the realities of this long-lived, extremely inconvenient material don't seem to count: http://nyti.ms/gqBZAQ


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    We know all that. We can also predict with certainty that many people will die, from the cold, if we do not have affordable and reliable sources of electricity. This reality is never costed by opponents of nuclear so try telling us what excess mortality figures will be over 10,000 years next time...and what that will cost. EG Do people live longer in France than in the UK, is cheap electricity a factor or is it diet ??

    Nuclear accidents in gens one and two reactors ( excepting Japan where we don't know) have killed far fewer people in the last 50 years than war or poverty and that just in the western world that has these reactors not in the third or developing worlds.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    Cars kill people, a **** load of people worldwide, should cars be banned?

    * To point at a Model T and say its not safe since its old tech and old is true
    But to point a Model T and say latest 5series BMW is now safe is well absurd line of logic.

    * Alternatively to say Russian TU-154s are unsafe hence all planes including the latest Airbus and Boeing are not safe is a farce.

    * People die on roads (quite alot more than nuclear accidents mind you), does that mean we should ban roads? or build more safe motorways and replace old boreens.


    This forum attracts people who are very engineering and technology oriented and understand what I am trying to say here, to put it another way.
    When the word "nuclear" is mentioned all sense and logic seems to go out of the window for some people. Fear is a powerful emotion (as the climate change crowd have learned) but misdirected fear is a dangerous and blind one.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    If spent fuel is reprocessed and then re-used the end result is less waste especially as plutonium and anticides are burnt off. The remaining Uranium looses about 99.9% of it's radiation within a 40 year period if stored.

    The research into Thorium based reactors could result in the amount of waste needing storage been turned into a minor fraction of current levels. That and it removes concerns over proliferation.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    dubhthach wrote: »
    If spent fuel is reprocessed and then re-used the end result is less waste especially as plutonium and anticides are burnt off. The remaining Uranium looses about 99.9% of it's radiation within a 40 year period if stored.

    The research into Thorium based reactors could result in the amount of waste needing storage been turned into a minor fraction of current levels. That and it removes concerns over proliferation.

    The main problem at Fukushima now are waste storage pods, now if the waste wasnt stored on site (as all plants endup doing due to politics) and was reprocessed, this wouldn't be as big as mess :( The irony.

    I hope more 1st gen plants are decommissioned ASAP, Fukushima reactor was 2 weeks away from it when the earthquake struck.

    There is still 11 RMBK 1000 "Chernobyl" Class reactors in operation. These should be replaced and closed ASAP the last thing the world needs is a reminder of this Soviet reactor design, whose main aim was nuclear weapon production, not electricity. On a more interesting note the New Sarcophagus is finally under construction at Chernobyl.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 861 ✭✭✭yawnstretch


    I'd love to believe that the waste is safely recycled or only lasts 40 years but when I hear about mountains being stuffed full of waste for millions of years I remember that nuclear has always been marketed as clean and safe.

    Why should I believe the industry facts and figures when they have a conflict of interest (making money)? What industry wants a long term renewable solution when they can charge us for mining and boiling special rocks? Money to be made guarding the waste too probably.

    Right now the human race needs to be scaling back industrialization. We need to be much more economical while we figure out how to become sustainable. There are no planets nearby to colonize. This is the only one we have!

    If you want to heat people check this out:

    http://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_GhvQTeJ1wkc/S2H_8TtqBYI/AAAAAAAAA8s/hopMM5tOzgE/s800/IMG_5988.JPG

    It's water flowing down a mountain in pipes in Switzerland. It uses gravity to turn dynamos (not hot steam turning nuclear dynamos).

    You are being sold a service - not a solution.


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