Why isn't classism taboo?

omen80 · 07-03-2011 10:44PM

We need classes. Otherwise we would be one step away from communism.

krd · 07-03-2011 11:20PM

omen80 wrote: »

We need classes. Otherwise we would be one step away from communism.

What's wrong with communism, comrade?

I'm being a little facetious. I do know quite a bit about communism.

Most people would be very surprised to learn, that under communism the same class distinctions and inequalities were quickly assumed after the revolutions. In Cuba, if you're related to a well connected family there are all kinds of material rewards and privileges. It's an even more unequal society than what we have here. The same in Soviet Russia.

But we do have communism in Ireland: Communism for the rich and brutal free enterprise for everyone else.

FlutterinBantam · 07-03-2011 11:50PM

krd wrote: »

What's wrong with communism, comrade?

I'm being a little facetious. I do know quite a bit about communism.

Most people would be very surprised to learn, that under communism the same class distinctions and inequalities were quickly assumed after the revolutions. In Cuba, if you're related to a well connected family there are all kinds of material rewards and privileges. It's an even more unequal society than what we have here. The same in Soviet Russia.

But we do have communism in Ireland: Communism for the rich and brutal free enterprise for everyone else.

So, let's evaluate your rationale.

As I perceive it you want a classless society where everyone ,regardless of ambition or enterprise is equal?

As I see it everyone has free education up to second level. Right?

if you don't partake in that advantage and drop out, surely you can't expect those who work hard and persevere to support you. Right?

krd · 08-03-2011 12:16AM

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

So, let's evaluate your rationale.

As I perceive it you want a classless society where everyone ,regardless of ambition or enterprise is equal?

As I see it everyone has free education up to second level. Right?

if you don't partake in that advantage and drop out, surely you can't expect those who work hard and persevere to support you. Right?

No, I don't believe the world is an equal place - some people work hard and should be rewarded for their hard work. In the world we live in, an individuals economic reward is not always proportional to their effort or economic contribution. I've had my gut busted working, where I was rewarded sweet FA. Being managed by well connected dimwits - many of who were intellectually disadvantaged but socially very well advantaged.

Most economic choices and relationships are Hobson choices - take it or leave it. There is no choice. Fonr many people working they may as well be working under a totalitarianism dictatorship. In fact the Soviet union attempted to model their society on American capitalist enterprises like Ford.

I would like a fair society. A society where people, regardless of their social origins, are rewarded for their hard work. And where the weak, the poor and the old are protected - civilized society. Not a no holds barred, winner or cheat takes all one. People should be respected and rewarded for who they are and what they do - not for the vagina they plop out of.

Cianos · 08-03-2011 12:39AM

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

I wouldn't quite accept that.

Racism in my book is a totally irrational hatred of a race purely based on colour-nothing else. Nothing else at all.

True, but people justify it in all types of ways - intelligence, anti social behaviour, crime rates etc.

Now I think it's unreasonable to drill this stuff down to the 'at what point' stage.

Fair enough, I was just illustrating the point in that way.

I think people make reasonable assumptions, that's how it works.

If people experience a negative and aggressive attitude from a certain group, and that group dress and speak in similar fashion, you can't blame the person for assuming that based of dress ,speech, and attitude, the person who dress and acts similarly is of the same mindset?

I wouldn't blame them, again it's from creating patterns for defensive reasons. But that doesn't mean it's in any way accurate.

I think people make a lot of unreasonable assumptions - which is okay, they should just be able to admit that it's unreasonable.

If I'm walking down a dark street and there's someone approaching me wearing a tracksuit, a safe thing to do is assume something is going to happen, to be prepared. If the person approaching is wearing a suit, I'll be less on guard.

Logically, it's highly unlikely that either are going to do anything. I've walked past hundreds of people wearing tracksuits and nothing has happened...yet I'll still be more assuming of the first person than the second person. So I'm making assumptions about the first guy the same way I made assumptions about all the hundreds of other tracksuit wearers I've walked by in the past. Logic would say that an assumption that has been proven wrong hundreds of times is unreasonable.

krd · 08-03-2011 12:47AM

Cianos, you have to ask yourself what kind of society we live in. We're firmly part of the Anglo Saxon world. People from the Scandinavian countries come to countries like Ireland and England and are horrified by the way we live and our social tensions.

To quote a Finish friend: "We give money to the poor in Finland to buy clothes - but we tell them, don't spend it on tracksuits"

Get off a plane from anywhere in the world to any city in the UK or Ireland you think you've landed in some kind of Olympic village or that there's some massive athletics convention in train.

FlutterinBantam · 08-03-2011 10:20AM

Cianos wrote: »

True, but people justify it in all types of ways - intelligence, anti social behaviour, crime rates etc.

Fair enough, I was just illustrating the point in that way.

I wouldn't blame them, again it's from creating patterns for defensive reasons. But that doesn't mean it's in any way accurate.

I think people make a lot of unreasonable assumptions - which is okay, they should just be able to admit that it's unreasonable.

If I'm walking down a dark street and there's someone approaching me wearing a tracksuit, a safe thing to do is assume something is going to happen, to be prepared. If the person approaching is wearing a suit, I'll be less on guard.

Logically, it's highly unlikely that either are going to do anything. I've walked past hundreds of people wearing tracksuits and nothing has happened...yet I'll still be more assuming of the first person than the second person. So I'm making assumptions about the first guy the same way I made assumptions about all the hundreds of other tracksuit wearers I've walked by in the past. Logic would say that an assumption that has been proven wrong hundreds of times is unreasonable.

Yours and my personal experience may be that,however others may not have been so lucky, therefore we take their actual factual experiences into account and fashion our views accordingly.

I haven't seen a great deal of court reports of suited gents attacking randomers whereas on the other hand I have seen plenty of track-suited furrowed brow ,finger sticking individuals, photographed outside courthouses.

So I wouldn't be beating myself up about being too unreasonable.

prinz · 08-03-2011 10:38AM

TheHatter wrote: »

Rather, those who do identify people as rich or poor, whatever their explanation may be, are Classist. It is the scale on which they base their judgement.
It exists. Some seem to be making excuses for it. Whether against beggars or prisoners, genuine refugees or the unemployed, it is wrong, and should be eradicated.

Right so what do we know call someone who is unemployed? Or in prison? Got new catchy terms that we all must learn?

Cianos · 08-03-2011 10:54AM

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Yours and my personal experience may be that,however others may not have been so lucky, therefore we take their actual factual experiences into account and fashion our views accordingly.

I haven't seen a great deal of court reports of suited gents attacking randomers whereas on the other hand I have seen plenty of track-suited furrowed brow ,finger sticking individuals, photographed outside courthouses.

So I wouldn't be beating myself up about being too unreasonable.

Yes, most criminals certainly seem to dress in tracksuits etc - so a cautionary reaction when being approached by someone dressed similarly is a natural defensive reaction.

But you have to see the parallel between this and, say, some cities in the states where most crimes are committed by African Americans - a cautionary reaction when being approached by an African American on a dark street is also a natural defensive reaction. Making assumptions about a possible threat is based upon the awareness that "most crimes are committed by African Americans" (rather than "most African Americans commit crimes") - he's in a compromised situation; alone, dark street and the person down the road fits the particular profile, so it's natural to be worried in the moment.

As you and I have passed hundreds of tracksuit wearers and nothing has happened, our state-side friend has passed hundreds of black people and nothing has happened. He probably knows people who have gotten in to trouble by people who fit the profile, as most people know someone who has suffered from criminality.

But for him to resolutely and outwardly make assumptions and statements about black people in general would be deemed racist - which is a social taboo - meaning far more people think it than say it. Whereas here, the steps getting to those assumptions are the same as regards tracksuit wearers, yet outwardly making classist remarks directed at people who appear to fit the profile is totally acceptable.

TheHatter · 08-03-2011 12:01PM

"Tracksuitism" is fine with me.

Exactly what you wear is a personal choice. If you wear tracksuits because others do, thats not begging me to confer respect.

Basically, given that the style (if not the specific brands) that you wear are at your discretion, I think judging people who wear tracksuits, if they do so as a group... its ok with me.

This discussion is about Classism though. No?

krd · 08-03-2011 12:17PM

FlutterinBantam, trust me. Any weekend night you'll find heino crazed rugger buggers bashing strangers heads in. There's a rugby pub around the corner from me - if I walk past it any weekend night I usually get abuse shouted at me in posh accents. I never respond to the abuse - as I know the braying animals would descend on me mob handed and kick me to death on the ground. Of course they will be no arrests or prosecutions for my murder. Remember the murder of Brian Murphy outside Anabel's in 2006. They fitted up the one working class person who happened to be stupid enough to fall in with such low lifes. And the rest of the killers walked away scot free. They probably waltzed into jobs in banking and screwing us over at this very moment in time.

On Sunday morning I was walking around the city centre. Spooky. There are so many homeless people on the streets if you're out early the place looks like there's a camping jamboree on. Anyway. I was walking past one of the wretches, and he asked me the time - in a Ross Carroll O'kelly accent. So, there are people from the guided classes on the streets too. (Though, he could be one of those working class people who've learned to fake the accent of the better classes - there's quite a few of them about; par venus and interlopers - keep a close eye out. )

FlutterinBantam · 08-03-2011 11:41PM

krd wrote: »

FlutterinBantam, trust me. Any weekend night you'll find heino crazed rugger buggers bashing strangers heads in. There's a rugby pub around the corner from me - if I walk past it any weekend night I usually get abuse shouted at me in posh accents. I never respond to the abuse - as I know the braying animals would descend on me mob handed and kick me to death on the ground. Of course they will be no arrests or prosecutions for my murder. Remember the murder of Brian Murphy outside Anabel's in 2006. They fitted up the one working class person who happened to be stupid enough to fall in with such low lifes. And the rest of the killers walked away scot free. They probably waltzed into jobs in banking and screwing us over at this very moment in time.

On Sunday morning I was walking around the city centre. Spooky. There are so many homeless people on the streets if you're out early the place looks like there's a camping jamboree on. Anyway. I was walking past one of the wretches, and he asked me the time - in a Ross Carroll O'kelly accent. So, there are people from the guided classes on the streets too. (Though, he could be one of those working class people who've learned to fake the accent of the better classes - there's quite a few of them about; par venus and interlopers - keep a close eye out. )

I think perhaps you are over reacting.."surely kick you to death on the ground":eek: A bit of an exaggeration surely.

You also seem a bit obsessed by the Annabel's incident, while not minimising it, it was a relatively isolated incident.

I don't go about my daily life worrying too much about class and status 'cause eventually it will just eat you up and and turn you into a blinkered and bitter individual and make life very tedious indeed.

krd · 16-03-2011 04:10PM

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

I think perhaps you are over reacting.."surely kick you to death on the ground":eek: A bit of an exaggeration surely.

You also seem a bit obsessed by the Annabel's incident, while not minimising it, it was a relatively isolated incident.

The Annabel's incident was not a once off. Remember years ago we used have later hours for licenses. These hours had to be curtailed due to a whole rake of incidents just like Annabel's. If I remember correctly, about 7 deaths in a short time frame. All connected with Planet Murphy's Camden street.

I don't go about my daily life worrying too much about class and status 'cause eventually it will just eat you up and and turn you into a blinkered and bitter individual and make life very tedious indeed.

If it effects your economic opportunities in life, it effects every moment of your life. And it's more than just economic opportunities. I have been sneered at, humiliated, and treated with contempt by people who presume themselves to be of a higher social status then myself. Knackery Irish people with a little a cash, a scutty little house in a socially exclusive area. I believe everyone, regardless of social background is entitled to dignity and respect. I believe anyone who holds the opposite view does not even deserve to be treated as human.

It's easy not to be bitter, when you've got the nicest slice of the cake. You might want everyone else to shut up so you can enjoy it in peace, without any feelings of guilt. Or the fear that someone is going try stop you from gobbling it all down.

FlutterinBantam · 17-03-2011 07:29PM

krd wrote: »

The Annabel's incident was not a once off. Remember years ago we used have later hours for licenses. These hours had to be curtailed due to a whole rake of incidents just like Annabel's. If I remember correctly, about 7 deaths in a short time frame. All connected with Planet Murphy's Camden street.

If it effects your economic opportunities in life, it effects every moment of your life. And it's more than just economic opportunities. I have been sneered at, humiliated, and treated with contempt by people who presume themselves to be of a higher social status then myself. Knackery Irish people with a little a cash, a scutty little house in a socially exclusive area. I believe everyone, regardless of social background is entitled to dignity and respect. I believe anyone who holds the opposite view does not even deserve to be treated as human.

It's easy not to be bitter, when you've got the nicest slice of the cake. You might want everyone else to shut up so you can enjoy it in peace, without any feelings of guilt. Or the fear that someone is going try stop you from gobbling it all down.

There's where we differ.

I believe respect has to be earned.

Usually those with a social chip on their shoulder use this argument to justify their stance.

eg "
You don't like me because I am working class" When the real reason they are not liked is they are running a car repair business from their home and the focking place is clogged up with cars and noise.

Let's deal with the real world here, no just surmisations and popular myths.

Why isn't classism taboo?

Comments