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Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )
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2009 numbers (I think that 2010 may be in the press somewhere by now)As a matter of interest does anyone know what the subvention per passenger Journey is on: IÉ, Bus Éireann, Dublin Bus?
Dublin Bus
pax:128m subvention:€83.2m subvention per trip:0.65c
Bus Eireann
pax:85m subvention:€49.3m subvention per trip:0.58c
Irish Rail
pax:39m subvention:€170.6 subvention per trip:€4.37
couple of notes:
1. Capital grants are not included in these figures. The state buys equipment for these companies and just gives it to them as far as I know.
2. The amount subvented per trip varies widely across services. eg Irish Rail on the Western Rail Corridor receive over €150 per trip while DART is said to be profitable (no subsidy).
--edit--
2010 numbers:
Dublin Bus
121m pax €75.8m subvention sub/trip:0.63c
Irish Rail
38.3m pax €151m subvention sub/trip:€3.940 -
This feels somewhat like history repeating its self...
You have already wrongly claimed that Metro North does not serve any other population centres other than Swords and you tried to claim there is no density inside the M50 when the greatest density is inside the M50. My reply on the Dart Underground thread is here, just in case you missed it???
To add to that argument Metro North allows Metro West to serve more of north Finglas, and areas like Blanchardstown.
Wrong? Do point out. I'm waiting.
Last time I checked the MN went to Swords a town of some 40K. I am aware that it doesn't uplink there and magically reappears in the CBD. The concept of building and expensive rail link underneath practically nobody hasn't eluded me.
There is no density within the M50 that justifys MN! Check the figures, go there and have a look around. Loads of 2 story houses. Not sure exactly what point you were trying to make in the above post? Bus is the way forward for these areas.0 -
Wrong? Do point out. I'm waiting.
Last time I checked the MN went to Swords a town of some 40K. I am aware that it doesn't uplink there and magically reappears in the CBD. The concept of building and expensive rail link underneath practically nobody hasn't eluded me.
There is no density within the M50 that justifys MN! Check the figures, go there and have a look around. Loads of 2 story houses. Not sure exactly what point you were trying to make in the above post? Bus is the way forward for these areas.
What densties justify a light rail link, in your opinion? And what are the densities along Metro North corridor?
You keep telling us North Dublin city does not have the densities to justify Metro North, so you give us the figures.
Back up your argument on this thread with hard numbers.0 -
Wrong? Do point out. I'm waiting.
Last time I checked the MN went to Swords a town of some 40K. I am aware that it doesn't uplink there and magically reappears in the CBD. The concept of building and expensive rail link underneath practically nobody hasn't eluded me.
There is no density within the M50 that justifys MN! Check the figures, go there and have a look around. Loads of 2 story houses. Not sure exactly what point you were trying to make in the above post? Bus is the way forward for these areas.
No density within the M50? Have you really looked at my post yet?
At this stage it just seems like you're anti-rail.
The reason it's being built underground isn't just to serve people, but largely because there is no room overground for proper busways or tram lines along the route. Again, you're living in dream land.Please go visit Ballymun is going low rise and Northwood is a couple of nice apartment blocks in quasi parkland. All of these "redevlopments" you speak off are small fry compared with what is actually needed.
I have. I know the areas well.
Are you by any change getting mixed up with hight and density? Hight does not always equal density. High density is achieved in most cities by spread out density, not hight.Will people walk from Phibsborough to the nearest MN station when they'd be in to town faster on a bus? People are already complaining about "how far" Docklands rail station is from anywhere!
The Matter stop is in Phibsborough. At peak times metro into town would be faster and more reliable. I'd love to know what bus would get you from the Matter to the Green and beyond faster than an underground metro.The council has overruled most major multistory developments, we're stuck with a general 6 story limit instead of 8 and most neighbourhoods go bananas when any sort of high density is proposed. Can you realistically see most of MN corridor within the M50 being bulldozed and higher density developments being built?
The route does not and will unlikely ever have the population density to justify the staggering amounts required to construct Metro North.
Need I go on? Or is reality too much?
You're talking nonsense. From "only 2 story low density housing is being served within the M50 ring" to more sweeping statements like "most of MN corridor within the M50 being bulldozed".
You're still in denial that there is already density along the route. Those maps I linked to are based on census data, not my views.
Phibsborough and Ballymun are set by the council at 16 storeys for residential and 12 storeys for offices, or up to 50m. There are problems with the development plan being overly restrictive, but that can be changed, a project like Metro North is not for the short term.Jack. I take it you live in Dublin? Drive the route, look around - you wouldn't need a census document to tell you the obvious. Visit Barcelona and you can see immediately why it works.... this shiny overpriced project will detract from providing real transport solutions for Dublin.
Have you driven the route, because you keep suggesting buses where there is no room for them. Driving the route misses most of the larger apartment blocks and other development I linked to.0 -
There is no density within the M50 that justifys MN! Check the figures, go there and have a look around. Loads of 2 story houses. Not sure exactly what point you were trying to make in the above post? Bus is the way forward for these areas.
Then what is justified? A magic QBC? A Luas that floats above traffic? A DART spur that protrudes at right angles from the Northern Line?
This debate goes both ways. What is your incredibly cost efficient solution...I have a feeling its one of the above...0 -
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No it doesn't. Read your article again. It says that even allowing for depreciation, the Luas made an operating profit and the depreciation was massive (due to our recession no doubt).
This is EXACTLY what I said and I specifically said operating profit to exclude the construction costs which will fade into memory within a generation and this piece of infrastructure will still be ferrying workers about in 100 years. Nobody asks how much it cost to build the Picadilly line anymore, and rightly so.
Same logic could be applied to the current banking situation. Nobody seems to want that one to fade into memory.0 -
Same logic could be applied to the current banking situation. Nobody seems to want that one to fade into memory.
Can you offer anything but rhetoric or generalisations and poor examples which you flip flop from one to another. Almost all your main points are disprove:- You keep saying that there is no density within the M50 but the census data mapped out shows the high density within the M50.
- You claimed that "only 2 story low density housing is being served within the M50", when clearly that is wrong.
- You seem to be confusing hight with density. While the two are interlinked, one does not always mean the other. The mixed but overall high density areas in and around Ballymun are an example of this.
- You keep saying buses should serve high density areas around Ballymun, but you're not dealing with the reality of the routes between it and the city being small roads and/or heavily congested routes.
- You don't seem to be able to compare like with like. You claim Dublin needs Barcelona-like density to support one partly underground metro line. Nobody is suggesting Barcelona-like 11 metro lines (which are largely underground?).
- You claimed Swords should be served by the heavily congested Northern line. People could be buses there. The example you used is Dachau in Germany where under 2.5km gets you from almost ever where in the town to the main train station with U-Bahn services, most of the town is around 1km from a train station. And you were trying to compare that to Swords where it's nearly 7km to the Northern line from parts of the town and the large bulk of housing is about 5km away from a train station.
- You tried to claim nobody in Phibsborough would walk to a metro stop as if the nearest stop was miles away. But the Matter stop is in Phibsborough.
- You talk about the whole route as if there is no room for more density. When there's loads of room around Swords, the areas north of Ballymun, and Ballymun its self. While Phibsborough is likely to be redeveloped sooner or later. And there's other small and large pockets of land which can be developed along the canal, in Drumcondra and even some in Glasnevin.
- You seem to be anti-rail and you seem to be in denial that Luas and Dart have been overall good projects which have added a lot to the city.
How can anybody trust what you're saying about Metro North?This is the same old rehash. Thanks for the lovely Google views. I know the area well thank you very much and they only serve to enhance my point of view. The problem is, as always, is that your figures don't add up. You're attaching "very large" and " massive populations" to areas where they don't exist! A 'massive population' on the north circular road???? It's mainly 2-3 story Georgian houses last time I drove down there. In fact I'll stand corrected but I don't think there's any apt blocks on the NCR?
DCU? Yes the metro will required to get them from the campus residences to the classrooms.
The city can do quite well out of the the 3/4 tracking with the feeder bus services AND have change to do other projects.
It is true to say that within the M50 has a RELATIVELY higher density than outside it. That's never been disputed. It's still low density 2 story housing.
I do not accept that there there is no room for dedicated bus routes, lanes or other means of running express services. It's your supposition that there isn't. If we want them we can build them.
I didn't bring up Dachau somebody else did but as a recent visitor there it demonstrated to me that this is a good solution for Swords. I don't see a single solution replacing MN but a series of solutions that work in an integrated manner and serve the city.
So pie in the sky it ain't.
More distractions.
You can keep saying there's only two story houses inside the M50 until you're blue in the face. I've proven otherwise, please stop calling black white. Even a lot of the two story housing is not "low density 2 story housing" (ie a county house with a large garden), much of the two stories within the M50 are not even detached.
Dachau was still your example. Three or four tracking or the northern line is planned anyway. Dublin needs both, not one or the other.
Yes, so many DCU students live on campus that the car parks and nearby estates are not full of cars. Never mind DCU staff, on campus companies, or the Helix. :rolleyes:
I said the North Circular Road area, go back and look at the links to see exactly where those apartments are. A bulk of the road it self, in the areas we are talking about, is three or more stories high, not two.
If you think I'm wrong about there being no room for a bus way or BRT -- you prove me wrong. Show me your solutions -- start a new thread on it if its that groundbreaking. EDIT: You never did answer my questions on how you see BRT fitting into the route before on this thread.0 - You keep saying that there is no density within the M50 but the census data mapped out shows the high density within the M50.
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I' bored with it by now. Anyone else feel the same?
My only negative issues with MN are Government commitment and its overall chances of being a long term financial and social success without DU.
I tend to leave my very historical and personal preferences at the door, because at this stage we need something somewhere and fast.0 -
No density within the M50? Have you really looked at my post yet?
At this stage it just seems like you're anti-rail.
The reason it's being built underground isn't just to serve people, but largely because there is no room overground for proper busways or tram lines along the route. Again, you're living in dream land.
I have. I know the areas well.
Are you by any change getting mixed up with hight and density? Hight does not always equal density. High density is achieved in most cities by spread out density, not hight.
The Matter stop is in Phibsborough. At peak times metro into town would be faster and more reliable. I'd love to know what bus would get you from the Matter to the Green and beyond faster than an underground metro.
You're talking nonsense. From "only 2 story low density housing is being served within the M50 ring" to more sweeping statements like "most of MN corridor within the M50 being bulldozed".
You're still in denial that there is already density along the route. Those maps I linked to are based on census data, not my views.
Phibsborough and Ballymun are set by the council at 16 storeys for residential and 12 storeys for offices, or up to 50m. There are problems with the development plan being overly restrictive, but that can be changed, a project like Metro North is not for the short term.
Have you driven the route, because you keep suggesting buses where there is no room for them. Driving the route misses most of the larger apartment blocks and other development I linked to.
You ain't going to get it but the figures speak for themselves and that you can't dispute. Look at the census data.
I'm not an anti-rail. If the population and the suers were there, I would be first to encourage it. Knock down houses and build as big a hole as you like to get it it done. However, the customers aren't there to justify the enormous cost of building it. That's the facts.
Height and density? I don't think you get the difference. At the moment we have low density housing along the entire MN route. Allowing taller buildings automatically increases the density (assuming that they are occupied) of the same land area. Within the M50 most of the housing is long established. The opportunity to increase future density is limited. Limited that locals will object and limited because of the development plan. Even in the Swords area it's 2 story sprawl.The Matter stop is in Phibsborough. At peak times metro into town would be faster and more reliable. I'd love to know what bus would get you from the Matter to the Green and beyond faster than an underground metro.
Providing a helicopter service would! Shall we do that? It would be faster direct and more reliable? Your arguement is null and void. Buses are a perfectly reliable means of transport and at the right price point.
S it happens, the distance from the Mater to Phibsborough would make it more practical to take the bus and you'd have a greater range of destinations.
Anyway George Hook is talking about Metro North now on Newstalk (Tuesday March 14th)0 -
You ain't going to get it but the figures speak for themselves and that you can't dispute. Look at the census data.
What figures?Height and density? I don't think you get the difference. At the moment we have low density housing along the entire MN route.
There are areas of low density housing and areas of medium density like the ones that monument has shown. Even without the metro, there was a huge amount of infill development over the last ten years which has resulted in a rising density. If proper public transport was provided, there is still a huge amount of scope for further densification.
There are massive amounts of undeveloped space right beside the proposed station at Ballymun, there is the DPT boring site opposite Whitehall church, there is the church lands at Holy Cross and on Griffith avenue if they ever decide to sell, there is more at St. Pats if they wanted to move to DCU-2 at Griffith and all of that is before you get to existing houses which could be demolished and replaced with higher density apartment blocks over time.0 -
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You ain't going to get it but the figures speak for themselves and that you can't dispute. Look at the census data.
I'm not an anti-rail. If the population and the suers were there, I would be first to encourage it. Knock down houses and build as big a hole as you like to get it it done. However, the customers aren't there to justify the enormous cost of building it. That's the facts.
What density and population is needed for Metro North? What are you basing this on?
And while you're at it what densities and populations are needed for Dart Underground, Luas and Commuter rail?Height and density? I don't think you get the difference. At the moment we have low density housing along the entire MN route. Allowing taller buildings automatically increases the density (assuming that they are occupied) of the same land area. Within the M50 most of the housing is long established. The opportunity to increase future density is limited. Limited that locals will object and limited because of the development plan. Even in the Swords area it's 2 story sprawl.
You're not getting it.
You've lost the argument about density and population within the M50. What the census shows is the largest density and largest population within the M50. Of the whole Greater Dublin Area, 47% of people live within the M50.
Loads of opportunity to increase density in Swords, the areas north of Ballymun, in Ballymun, in Phibsborough, and around the north circular road. Even in Glasnevin and Drumcondra there's some scope -- there's a surprising amount of scope as mentioned in the above post. With Metro West feeding into Metro North, you're also talking about North Finglas and the areas around Blanch.Providing a helicopter service would! Shall we do that? It would be faster direct and more reliable? Your arguement is null and void. Buses are a perfectly reliable means of transport and at the right price point.
S it happens, the distance from the Mater to Phibsborough would make it more practical to take the bus and you'd have a greater range of destinations.
Stop making up arguments. And any chance of leaving the rhetoric out?
I argued against you claiming that nobody in Phibsborough would use a metro stop on their doorstep. Buses will remain important, that does not mean nobody will use Metro North as you were trying to claim. Even in London, with it's Underground network, buses are a cornerstone of the public transport system. It's a network, not one or the other.0 -
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Here's another little hint/clue to the upfront cost to the State of Metro North.
Remember the Greens using the figure €700million in an election document?
Well, I would now suggest it may have some credence.
From the Metro North Facebook page operated by the RPA - it's in a reply to the Junkman's No to Metro North post on the latest Ryanair guff re €5billion cost of Metro:http://www.facebook.com/pages/Metro-North/139624076083382
Metro North will cost far less than €5 billion to build and despite what Ryanair choose to believe is not just an airport metro. Indeed, RPA would agree with Ryanair that a rail line whose sole purpose is serving the airport could not be ju...stified. Metro North will serve the north side of Dublin and provide excellent interchange with rail and bus, serve shopping districts, universities, hospitals and will provide a world class transport system reducing journey times, getting people out of cars and contributing significantly to the continued economic vibrancy of Dublin.
The project is ready to go, will create over 6,000 jobs during construction and provide an economic return in excess of €1billion. For every €1 million spent on Metro North construction €1.5 million will go back into the Irish economy.
Two thirds of in excess of €1bn comes in at circa €700m, does it not?0 -
Jack Noble wrote: »Here's another little hint/clue to the upfront cost to the State of Metro North.
Remember the Greens using the figure €700million in an election document?
Well, I would now suggest it may have some credence.
From the Metro North Facebook page operated by the RPA - it's in a reply to the Junkman's No to Metro North post on the latest Ryanair guff re €5billion cost of Metro:
Two thirds of in excess of €1bn comes in at circa €700m, does it not?
Are they including what they spent already in the 700 million0 -
Are they including what they spent already in the 700 million
The Green Party figure was in a budget document for the years 2011 to 2014 so my understanding is that €700m would include the circa €250m earmarked this year and next for enabling works.
Does it include the €135m spent to date on design, property acquistion, consultancy, etc? That I don't know.
But that's two separate sources where the figure €700m is apparent.
Coincidence?0 -
Jack Noble wrote: »The Green Party figure was in a budget document for the years 2011 to 2014 so my understanding is that €700m would include the circa €250m earmarked this year and next for enabling works.
Does it include the €135m spent to date on design, property acquistion, consultancy, etc? That I don't know.
But that's two separate sources where the figure €700m is apparent.
Coincidence?
It suits the RPA to put out a low figure in spin , without having to stand over the figure . Just the RPA trying to force the government into allowing it to do the enabling works .0 -
It suits the RPA to put out a low figure in spin , without having to stand over the figure . Just the RPA trying to force the government into allowing it to do the enabling works .
Call it what you like but I'm more interested that the Greens had the €700m in their budget document - seeing as they had access to the actual figures presented to the Cabinet and being used by Finance and Transport.
I believe the Greens let the real figure slip out during the election - the RPA comment today on Facebook simply confirms what the GP said, IMHO.
But we'll know for sure later this year.0 -
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In order to believe that, you'd have to be pretty paranoid, you'd have to believe that the RPA were only pushing this because it's their pet project. And not because 100s of thousands of Dubliners want it and will use it all the time.It suits the RPA to put out a low figure in spin , without having to stand over the figure . Just the RPA trying to force the government into allowing it to do the enabling works .
Are we still on track for an April start to the enabling works? I remember the outgoing gov saying that was the plan.0 -
Join Date:Posts: 4954
Correct. I lived in Melbourne and Sydney for a few months back in the day. A pair of larger urban sprawl zones you'll never see.There are areas of low density housing and areas of medium density like the ones that monument has shown. Even without the metro, there was a huge amount of infill development over the last ten years which has resulted in a rising density. If proper public transport was provided, there is still a huge amount of scope for further densification.
...and all of that is before you get to existing houses which could be demolished and replaced with higher density apartment blocks over time.
And yet, great public transport. In Melbourne it was a large commuter rail system backed up by trams, buses and a large network of motorways which fed park and rides. In Sydney it was a large urban heavy rail system with some underground sections backed up by buses, motorways and park and ride sites.
But most of all, I saw that they were making judicious use of infill. The street I lived on was lined with bungalows, and the occasional random apartment block with around 10 units. It was obvious from their randomness that they didn't date from the construction of the street and had been created by knocking down adjacent pairs of houses and building the block. There was a Cityrail station five minutes away. Additionally, train stations would often have shopping and medium-intensity developments in the immediate vicinity, to further boost numbers.
It wasn't perfect of course but I really think Australia shows that you can have good public transport even in a low-density city. Dublin needs DART, Metro North and possibly 1 more metro line, backed up by a small number of Luas extensions, a bus overhaul, and the construction of larger park and ride sites in commuter towns. We already have the motorways and the bones of the rail. Once MN and DU get going, the rest is pretty easy. A second Metro line will be easier to justify when the first one is a success (which it will) and the Luas extensions will sail through cause people can already see that the Luas is a success.0 -
from Build.ieAccording to an unpublished Government brief, further delays to Metro North in Dublin are "not an option" and could undermine the State's ability to seek investors for other major infrastructure projects.
Officials at the Department of Transport have said the Government need to either scrap the proposed 18km rail link from St Stephen's Green to Swords or proceed quickly with enabling works.
The delays have affected the two bidders involved in the procurement process for the planned Metro, who have had to invest significant sums of money to keep their teams mobilised. The brief stated: "If the project does not proceed based on this competition it is highly unlikely that bidders with the requisite skills would invest the substantial sums required to put another bid together.
"This could also have a serious impact on the credibility of the Government as a counter-party for PPP [public-private partnership] deals for other major infrastructure investment projects."
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Fine Gael and Labour's programme for government does give a firm commitment to funding Metro North, but it pledges to support high-capacity commuter services subject to cost-benefit analysis.
The full extent of the exchequer budget for the project has not been disclosed though it is estimated to be somewhere in the region of €3 billion.
The Railway Procurement Agency have prepared the latest estimates on the business case for the Metro, and they estimate it would yield €2 in economic benefits for every €1 spent on its construction. Officials also estimate that it could create about 4,000 construction jobs, as well as 2,000 other posts linked to the project during the construction period.
According to records released under the Freedom of Information Act, State has already spent about €135 million on planning, diverting utilities and works on heritage for Metro North and a further €45 million is expected to be spent on similar works this year.
This brings the total spend on Metro North to almost €175 million before the project has received formal Government approval.
Some commentators have advocated scrapping Metro North and focusing on the proposed Dart Underground scheme on the basis that it would be cheaper, benefit more passengers and yield a greater economic return.
This project would involve building a tunnel to link the Docklands and Inchicore, which would provide underground stations in the city and link existing rail systems such as the Luas and Inter-city trains.
In unpublished records, department officials say a straight comparison between Metro and the Dart Underground is difficult as they have different objectives.
Given the pressure on the public finances, the previous government announced last year that it would not be possible to fund the Dart project in the near future.
(JG)
http://www.build.ie/national_news.asp?newsid=1241590 -
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There's a real venom againnst MN the likes of which I have never seen against any infrastructure project in Ireland.
We have a collection of "Irish Independent" types, Myers, MOL and all, who continue to propogate out and out lies, and hold to the line that MN is just an airport rail link. Their slavish insistence on telling these mistruths tells me there is something much deeper to the outright hostility towards this project - one which obviously in the minds of these people, completely outweighs the wishes of the People of that part of the City, who lets face it, quite obviously outnumber Myers, O'Leary, Carroll and their Cronies.
So if anyone knows exactly what their major issue is, their issue which makes them tell complete lies - over and over again so (hopefully for them) they stick, can they please come out and tell us exactly what this issue is??
The stupid bloody people of this country crowed on during the boom about how we failed to invest in transport infrastructure in readiness for the boom.... and now, on the edge of us making that investment, they cry stop??? They say we dont need this?? They try to pretend that a Metropolitan area of about 1.6 million people doesnt need an efficient rail system?
They claim that BUS is the way forward when BUS has manifestly failed to get ENOUGH people out of their cars, and failed to make the city a more attractive place to live?
What is the real agenda folks - out with it!!!!??0 -
There's a real venom againnst MN the likes of which I have never seen against any infrastructure project in Ireland.
The anti-Luas "journalism" was worse believe it or not. It was more or less the same shower that time too.
You have to realise that many people who are journalists are actually socialised psychopaths.
They are drawn to the power overload of the profession as it allows the psychopath who is generally an expert on nothing - to not only pontificate in order to indulge his/her pathological need to adore his/her own god complex, but the power trip it provides these individuals is thrilling to them. I would have to say Irish journalism per head has more observable clinical psychopaths at the top of the profession than even places such as Irish politics, banking and property development where one would expect to come across psychopathic clustering to a far greater degree. Psychopaths are the greatest social problem we face in the world today. I even wrote a book about it.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Puzzling-People-Psychopath-Thomas-Sheridan/dp/1905605285/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1300302052&sr=8-1
They hide their pathology behind a mask of sanity and expertise - when they are in fact, they are just dangerous lunatics who have no belief in anything really and just enjoy destroying people, societies and nations. When you see crusades like this against metro north - you are often dealing with psychopaths who have found what they percieve is an "easy target" to go after and destroy in order to feed their egos and sense of importance. They are not interested in facts. This is why they still trot out the 5 billion figure constantly. Rather their psychopathic need for power over the perceptions of others is what motivates them.
Journalism is not a profession which draws (for the most part) healthy people at all. Most are happy propagandists and some are outright psychopaths. Take your pick. I haven't named any names in this thread. That's not for me to do. However, I think it is becoming increasingly obvious with this latest journalistic crusade and comparing it to previous ones which media types are not interested in anything other than destruction of infrastructure projects as it makes them feel important. There is nothing about this kind of behaviour which is normal in any way. They know that people on this thread are upset and angry reading the grabage they publish in newpapers and say on TV/Radio and they love it. They enjoy causing negative feelings in others as it is basically the only thing a psychopath can do in order to feel alive to begin with.
The solution is to stop feeding the beast. Stop buying newspapers, visting their websites and switch off TV and the entire world they have created to mess with the rest of us which lose advertising revenue and collapse.0 -
I remember the debate on Luas, I dont think O'leary got involved that time, but yes, I remember it was quite a debate.
O'leary getting involved always worries me because far too many people in this country lend credance to the self serving tripe he comes out with on transport issues. It's all to serve the "greater" interest of Ryanair at all times, and everyone working in aviation knows it - its just a pity more people dont listen to us.0 -
spacetweek wrote: »In order to believe that, you'd have to be pretty paranoid, you'd have to believe that the RPA were only pushing this because it's their pet project. And not because 100s of thousands of Dubliners want it and will use it all the time.
Are we still on track for an April start to the enabling works? I remember the outgoing gov saying that was the plan.
Just because your paranoid, does not mean they are not all out to get you:)
The RPA are fighting for their existence. The best case scenario is a merge with the NRA. With Veolia running Luas & no other project in the pipeline , one could argue they are not needed .0 -
There's a real venom againnst MN the likes of which I have never seen against any infrastructure project in Ireland.
We have a collection of "Irish Independent" types, Myers, MOL and all, who continue to propogate out and out lies, and hold to the line that MN is just an airport rail link. Their slavish insistence on telling these mistruths tells me there is something much deeper to the outright hostility towards this project - one which obviously in the minds of these people, completely outweighs the wishes of the People of that part of the City, who lets face it, quite obviously outnumber Myers, O'Leary, Carroll and their Cronies.
So if anyone knows exactly what their major issue is, their issue which makes them tell complete lies - over and over again so (hopefully for them) they stick, can they please come out and tell us exactly what this issue is??
The stupid bloody people of this country crowed on during the boom about how we failed to invest in transport infrastructure in readiness for the boom.... and now, on the edge of us making that investment, they cry stop??? They say we dont need this?? They try to pretend that a Metropolitan area of about 1.6 million people doesnt need an efficient rail system?
They claim that BUS is the way forward when BUS has manifestly failed to get ENOUGH people out of their cars, and failed to make the city a more attractive place to live?
What is the real agenda folks - out with it!!!!??
I think the RPA handled things very badly & pushed through their preferred route & were supported by developers in O'Connell Street that want particular stations close to their new developments . They alienated a lot of people. They denied the existence of a document which was then made available to those that the RPA had promised that it didn't exist. They failed to engage with people until very late in the day.0 -
There's a real venom againnst MN the likes of which I have never seen against any infrastructure project in Ireland.
We have a collection of "Irish Independent" types, Myers, MOL and all, who continue to propogate out and out lies, and hold to the line that MN is just an airport rail link. Their slavish insistence on telling these mistruths tells me there is something much deeper to the outright hostility towards this project - one which obviously in the minds of these people, completely outweighs the wishes of the People of that part of the City, who lets face it, quite obviously outnumber Myers, O'Leary, Carroll and their Cronies.
So if anyone knows exactly what their major issue is, their issue which makes them tell complete lies - over and over again so (hopefully for them) they stick, can they please come out and tell us exactly what this issue is??
The stupid bloody people of this country crowed on during the boom about how we failed to invest in transport infrastructure in readiness for the boom.... and now, on the edge of us making that investment, they cry stop??? They say we dont need this?? They try to pretend that a Metropolitan area of about 1.6 million people doesnt need an efficient rail system?
They claim that BUS is the way forward when BUS has manifestly failed to get ENOUGH people out of their cars, and failed to make the city a more attractive place to live?
What is the real agenda folks - out with it!!!!??
In relation to the people with a so called agenda.
It's a combination of their age, social class and life experiences. They are wrapped up in an ivory tower and conditioned to believe that Dublin can exist as a bus dominant public transport city for the working classes or a car dependent one for those who can afford all the costs that go with car ownership. They are traditional, lack vision in an urban environment and cannot fathom forms of change. Some of what they say is fair and valid, but the overall approach ruins anything interesting they have to say.
I believe the anti MN stance comes from the way it was show boated by the FF lead Governments, while other projects like DU were cast adrift and it was left to others to try and promote it. Add to that the CIE induced culture that convinces many of its way of doing things, despite them actually hating CIE.
Culture and Tradition are the reasons you are looking for. It has been conditioning this country since 1922 and don't doubt it.0 -
DWCommuter wrote: »In relation to the people with a so called agenda.
It's a combination of their age, social class and life experiences. They are wrapped up in an ivory tower and conditioned to believe that Dublin can exist as a bus dominant public transport city for the working classes or a car dependent one for those who can afford all the costs that go with car ownership.
Spot on, and add this red herrings about the Boer War memorial and the Green being dug up. What! Why is this even brought up?
The way absurd journalists go on about this one would think the Green is going to dug up and left as a pile of rubble following the construction of the DU/MN.
To even suggest this and then expect people to believe that this is what is going to happen shows the level of "intellect" these stange little media pundits have. Are these obnoxious creatures actually claiming that the Green will be dug up and left as a mess and not restored? Just consider the mentality of such a statement. It leads to one of two conclusions:- Irish journalists are mentally insane and really believe the Green will not be restored when the site works are completed? or:
- Irish Journalists know they are talking bollox and just put such notions out there to keep their names in the papers so nobody forgets their names?
Neither stance does any favours to the city/country they claims to care about.
Enough of these pathetic pundits. Many of them pathologically insane and more and more Irish people seem to be waking up to this which explains the collapse of newspapers sales and RTEs decent into ratings oblivion - they are all out of control, have too much public influence they do not deserve and need to be ignored.0 -
OurLadyofKnock wrote: »Spot on, and add this red herrings about the Boer War memorial and the Green being dug up. What! Why is this even brought up?
The way absurd journalists go on about this one would think the Green is going to dug up and left as a pile of rubble following the construction of the DU/MN.
To even suggest this and then expect people to believe that this is what is going to happen shows the level of "intellect" these stange little media pundits have. Are these obnoxious creatures actually claiming that the Green will be dug up and left as a mess and not restored? Just consider the mentality of such a statement. It leads to one of two conclusions:- Irish journalists are mentally insane and really believe the Green will not be restored when the site works are completed? or:
- Irish Journalists know they are talking bollox and just put such notions out there to keep their names in the papers so nobody forgets their names?
Neither stance does any favours to the city/country they claims to care about.
Enough of these pathetic pundits. Many of them pathologically insane and more and more Irish people seem to be waking up to this which explains the collapse of newspapers sales and RTEs decent into ratings oblivion - they are all out of control, have too much public influence they do not deserve and need to be ignored.
A new brand of correspondent is needed. In fact many can be found on forums like this.
Thats why I get so ****ing annoyed when Journalists are criticised along with politicians and the voluntary voice that makes some sense, is written off before its even explored. Anyone remember Platform 11? That was a voluntary voice that kicked some ass on rail issues and taught Irish Rail a few lessons along with the RPA. It was also a source of info for these pathetic pundits and politicians who earn money for being ordinary. The country needs an effective rail lobby more so now than it did in 2003.0 -
WRT density, I found this image on the Bow Group website. All three scenarios have the same density (i.e. number of people in the same area), but one spreads the people out more horizontally, while another spreads them out more vertically.
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WRT density, I found this image on the Bow Group website. All three scenarios have the same density (i.e. number of people in the same area), but one spreads the people out more horizontally, while another spreads them out more vertically.
Aard,
Thanks for the image. Most people don't realise that "High-Rise/High density" Ballymun only had a density of 8 houses per acre, while Griffith avenue which consists of semi-detached houses has a density of 24 houses per acre!0
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