Air Corps to collect Irish citizens from Libya

SamuelFox · 23-02-2011 06:17PM

This is just posturing. Every other country is sending a charter plane, why do the Irish need to send a military plane? Its not as comfortable and probably a lot more expensive. Reason: bragging rights in the mess. Another pointless waste of taxpayers money to boost DF egos.

danbohan · 23-02-2011 06:26PM

SamuelFox wrote: »

This is just posturing. Every other country is sending a charter plane, why do the Irish need to send a military plane? Its not as comfortable and probably a lot more expensive. Reason: bragging rights in the mess. Another pointless waste of taxpayers money to boost DF egos.

how can you say that , 10 of our f16s will in route to offer protection when we get the ok from the imf to pay for the fuel for them. !

ChunkyLover_53 · 23-02-2011 06:42PM

SamuelFox wrote: »

This is just posturing. Every other country is sending a charter plane, why do the Irish need to send a military plane? Its not as comfortable and probably a lot more expensive. Reason: bragging rights in the mess. Another pointless waste of taxpayers money to boost DF egos.

Taxpayers money would be used to hire a charter plane too. If I was stuck in Libya at the moment I wouldnt give a rats ass if they sent a shoe box with wings to get me out, as long as I got out. They can brag about it all they want.

Best use of taxpayers money in a long long time.

Sgt. Bilko 09 · 23-02-2011 06:49PM

SamuelFox wrote: »

This is just posturing. Every other country is sending a charter plane, why do the Irish need to send a military plane? Its not as comfortable and probably a lot more expensive. Reason: bragging rights in the mess. Another pointless waste of taxpayers money to boost DF egos.

FYI

French navy are also on stand by with two of its patrol boats en route too and the italian military have sent an ac130 troop transport aircraft to malta also for there so were not the military using its equipment for the good of the Irish people.

BrianD · 23-02-2011 06:55PM

ChunkyLover_53 wrote: »

Taxpayers money would be used to hire a charter plane too. If I was stuck in Libya at the moment I wouldnt give a rats ass if they sent a shoe box with wings to get me out, as long as I got out. They can brag about it all they want.

Best use of taxpayers money in a long long time.

No it's not - unless we get these people to pay up. Next we'll be paying to repatriate people for any reason.

I suggested that a commercial hire would probably be cheaper.

OS119 · 23-02-2011 07:11PM

Sgt. Bilko 09 wrote: »

FYI

French navy are also on stand by with two of its patrol boats en route too and the italian military have sent an ac130 troop transport aircraft to malta also for there so were not the military using its equipment for the good of the Irish people.

the military aircraft sent by france, italy and anyone else will be equipped with defensive aid suites - radar warning recievers, IR decoys, chaff, possibly laser warning systems and a slack handful of other goodies that will mean that, should the security situation become so serious that civil charter aircraft cannot land in Libya, the C-130/C-17's will be able to. they are also very much larger - that means for each opening they get to bring 100+ EU citizens out, the IAC aircraft, taking up the same opening, will be lucky to get 20 shoe-horned into them.

that makes them a very different capability to the civil charter aircraft, and not just a willy-waving exercise.

i'll give you three guesses as to whether the two aircraft sent by the IG have those defensive capabilities - but you'll only need one.

Steyr · 23-02-2011 07:30PM

Sgt. Bilko 09 wrote: »

FYI

French navy are also on stand by with two of its patrol boats en route too and the italian military have sent an ac130 troop transport aircraft to malta also for there so were not the military using its equipment for the good of the Irish people.

The Italians dont operate AC130 Spectre Gunships.

discus · 23-02-2011 07:30PM

Great to see them helping out the Irish abroad.

Manic Moran · 23-02-2011 07:31PM

the IAC aircraft, taking up the same opening, will be lucky to get 20 shoe-horned into them

I realise the CASA isn't exactly a C-130, but if we can fit 33 troops each with a backpack and duffle bag into a CH-47 which is a foot shorter inside, I'll be astonished if you can't fit forty people into a CN235. The modules are four seats per row, and with a typical airline's seat pitch of 32", that makes eleven rows. Drop a row for some bags.

Don't see what's wrong with the typical web seats though.

NTM

zuroph · 23-02-2011 07:34PM

talk of gaddafi trying to get the runways shot up in tripoli, would they not be better sending someone in by ground to get the irish, and bring them out that way?

ChunkyLover_53 · 23-02-2011 07:52PM

BrianD wrote: »

No it's not - unless we get these people to pay up. Next we'll be paying to repatriate people for any reason.

I suggested that a commercial hire would probably be cheaper.

Perhaps it would be. I'm just delighted someone showed some balls & made a decision, be it military aircraft or civilian charter flight someone in Government decided to give a rats about its citizens for once.

If those Irish people were left to make their own way out of Libya and came into harms way there would be plenty of peolple on the 'Why didn't the Goverment/Military do anything?' band wagon. At least they are doing something about it rather than sitting with their thumbs up their ass.

This would be a very different thread if the Government /Military weren't doing anything about it.

ScouseMouse · 23-02-2011 08:02PM

SamuelFox wrote: »

This is just posturing. Every other country is sending a charter plane, why do the Irish need to send a military plane? Its not as comfortable and probably a lot more expensive. Reason: bragging rights in the mess. Another pointless waste of taxpayers money to boost DF egos.

Surely the crew are getting paid anyway, whether they are off the irish coast or in Malta. Same with the plane, if its flying around off the coast, well how is it costing more to bring back some irish citizens who are stuck in a very volatile situation, which is no fault of their own.

Unless the aircrews are sitting on their backsides in a fancy hotel sunning themselves, I cannot see how its costing much more than their usual costs.

hk · 23-02-2011 08:05PM

BrianD wrote: »

No it's not - unless we get these people to pay up. Next we'll be paying to repatriate people for any reason.

I suggested that a commercial hire would probably be cheaper.

Suggest all you want, but please show me how its cheaper.
1. The pilots are full time and would be paid anyway.
2.The aircraft would have been on a maritime patrol, and since the flight to malta is straight cruise at altitude and shorter than a maritime patrol, which is low level, burns more fuel and is harder on the aircraft maintenance wise.
3. With a charter the costs would be crew wages, fuel and costs to cover wear and tear.

Also charter aircraft are exempt slot times, can fly military routes, have diplomatic status and generally can do a multitude of things that other aircraft cant..... Oh no wait that would the things military aircraft can do.

Who says these people are not deserving to be evacuated out of an extremely hostile situation. It is not the same as Egypt and the state are opening fire frequently on civilians.

To suggest these people should pay is just an insult. Suggesting that most people who work in the middle east dont pay tax simply isnt true, im sure there are Irish citizens to be evacuated who are government workers, people working for Irish companies who are trading in Lybia and bringing revenue into the country and charity workers in schools etc.

Colmo52 · 23-02-2011 08:47PM

From Twitter @defenceforces

An Air Corps CASA aircraft has successfully landed at Tripoli International Airport #Libya at 4.50pm this evening. More info when we have it

gizmo555 · 23-02-2011 08:55PM

RTE News reports one of these aircraft now landed in Tripoli at 4:50pm Irish time.

Oops - missed previous post.

blondie83 · 23-02-2011 09:30PM

BrianD wrote: »

Raises an interesting question. Most people who work in many middle eastern countries do so tax free.

I presume that the state will send a bill?

I'm also curious as to why the state is doing this for the first time ever.

Tax free? I wish! No we'd be sent for a week or two at a time, then off somewhere else usually, taxes were paid in Ireland though! We weren't paid any extra for it either - but sure was just part of the job. I'm really glad they're sending the planes down to get them out :-)

Savage93 · 23-02-2011 09:52PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Wait til the RN sends an aircraft carrier, that'll scare them.........

maybe they would if they had one, Ark Royal for sale for scrap, Harriers gone to the junkyard in the sky

BrianD · 23-02-2011 10:04PM

hk wrote: »

Suggest all you want, but please show me how its cheaper.
1. The pilots are full time and would be paid anyway.
2.The aircraft would have been on a maritime patrol, and since the flight to malta is straight cruise at altitude and shorter than a maritime patrol, which is low level, burns more fuel and is harder on the aircraft maintenance wise.
3. With a charter the costs would be crew wages, fuel and costs to cover wear and tear.

Also charter aircraft are exempt slot times, can fly military routes, have diplomatic status and generally can do a multitude of things that other aircraft cant..... Oh no wait that would the things military aircraft can do.

Who says these people are not deserving to be evacuated out of an extremely hostile situation. It is not the same as Egypt and the state are opening fire frequently on civilians.

To suggest these people should pay is just an insult. Suggesting that most people who work in the middle east dont pay tax simply isnt true, im sure there are Irish citizens to be evacuated who are government workers, people working for Irish companies who are trading in Lybia and bringing revenue into the country and charity workers in schools etc.

An insult? They're insulting me. Why not pay?

1) They've taken a maritime patrol aircraft off duty and putting it and it's crew potentially in harms way.

2) The attraction of working in the middle east for many people is that it's tax free. Not everybody, but most gigs are advertised that way.

3) If you choose to work in a country that is run by a despot and is known sponsor of international terror then you should put by a contingency fund to extricate yourself out of there. It least have an insurance policy

I'm not saying that the State should not act when Irish nationals are in danger. We should be presenting them with a bill for the services rendered. After all Mercury Engineering and others were there to make money and now were bailing them out.

hk wrote:

lso charter aircraft are exempt slot times, can fly military routes, have diplomatic status and generally can do a multitude of things that other aircraft cant..... Oh no wait that would the things military aircraft can do.

Utter rubbish. The Air Corps will require permission to fly into Tripoli as would a plane chartered by the Government. They'd be potentially intercepted (not sure if Libya still has a functioning air force) In fact a military aircraft of a foreign government would be less welcome than a civilian one. Even a hired 737 would be more efficient than sending a Casa and a Learjet.

Morpheus · 23-02-2011 10:06PM

You can order a military plane to ignore libya and enter libyan airspace and forcibly land and remove your people, you cant order the same from a charter plane. not saying this would happen, but there is your contingency, regardless of what equipment they have, if the order came down, i can guarantee theyd have made the flight.

gizmo555 · 23-02-2011 10:32PM

RTE now say that aircraft has taken off again and may not have taken any passengers with it.

ChunkyLover_53 · 23-02-2011 10:40PM

BBC are reporting Tripoli Airport is in 'total chaos'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12556005

OS119 · 24-02-2011 12:46AM

Morphéus wrote: »

You can order a military plane to ignore libya and enter libyan airspace and forcibly land and remove your people, you cant order the same from a charter plane. not saying this would happen, but there is your contingency, regardless of what equipment they have, if the order came down, i can guarantee theyd have made the flight.

a foreign military aircraft is more likely to be shot down in such circumstances than a foreign civil aircraft.

quite how does that help those looking to be evacuated?

Steyr · 24-02-2011 01:12AM

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0223/libya.html

Libya: Efforts to evacuate foreign citizens
Updated: 23:03, Wednesday, 23 February 2011

The Department of Foreign Affairs has said an Air Corps flight from Tripoli has touched down at Valetta in Malta, however it is understood it returned with no passengers on board.

The Department of Foreign Affairs has said an Aer Corps flight from Tripoli has touched down at Valetta in Malta.

It is understood the plane had clearance to land at Tripoli but left the airport without any passengers on board.

The Department says it was not possible to communicate with the flight when it was on the ground in Tripoli and it is awaiting a debriefing from the crew.

The aircraft is one of two Air Corps planes which had been sent in an attempt to bring home Irish citizens from Libya as protests against Muammar Gaddafi intensify.

The operation is one of many being taken by Governments around the world concerned for the safety of their citizens in Libya.

Nine Air Corps personnel left Casement Aerodrome in Baldonnel overnight in two aircraft.

The Defence Forces are liaising with the Department of Foreign Affairs (DFA) regarding the operation.

The DFA has said there are no reports of any Irish deaths in Libya.

A Learjet 45 and a Casa patrol plane were on stand by in Malta since last night for a possible evacuation of about 40 Irish people from Libya.

Meanwhile, European Union governments have agreed to prepare possible sanctions on Libya in response to Muammar Gaddafi's violent crackdown on anti-government protests.

Experts will now draw up a list of proposed measures, which could include visa bans, asset freezes, an arms embargo and other restrictions, before EU governments agree when to impose them.

Popular protests in Libya's neighbours Egypt and Tunisia have toppled entrenched leaders, but Gaddafi said he would not be forced out by the rebellion.

'This is my country, my country,' he said in a speech on national television yesterday. 'I will fight to the last drop of my blood.'

Mr Gaddafi said he would 'die a martyr in the land of my ancestors' and urged his followers to demonstrate their support.

'Capture the rats,' he said of anti-regime demonstrators. 'Go out of your homes and storm them.'

In New York, the UN Security Council has condemned the use of violence and called for those responsible for attacks on civilians to be held to account.

Amid reports of further defections from the Gaddafi government, several hundred people held a pro-Gaddafi rally in Tripoli's central Green Square last night.

A government spokesman accused international media of exaggerating the gravity of the situation in the country.

But swathes of Libya are no longer under government control.

In Sabratah, 80 km west of the capital, the Libyan army has deployed a 'large number' of soldiers after protestors destroyed almost all the security services offices.

Rebel soldiers in eastern Libya say the city of Tobruk is no longer under Gaddafi's control.

Tobruk residents said the city had been in the hands of the people for three days. They said the smoke rising above the city was from a munitions depot bombed by troops loyal to one of Gaddafi's sons.

Human Rights Watch says 62 people have died in clashes in Tripoli in the past two days, on top of its previous toll of 233 dead.

Opposition groups put the figure far much higher.

Steyr · 24-02-2011 02:59AM

Manic Moran wrote: »

I realise the CASA isn't exactly a C-130, but if we can fit 33 troops each with a backpack and duffle bag into a CH-47 which is a foot shorter inside, I'll be astonished if you can't fit forty people into a CN235. The modules are four seats per row, and with a typical airline's seat pitch of 32", that makes eleven rows. Drop a row for some bags.

Don't see what's wrong with the typical web seats though.

NTM

http://www.worldairpics.com/forum/index.php?topic=2656.0
Quote MACHLOOPER

"None of the actual mission equipment is removed. The saros and photographers seats are removed as well as the flare launcher to give room to standard (small) airline seats, more of which are fitted along the port side of the cabin. The larger 'Club' seats(x4) in the crew rest area can also be replaced by an extra row of smaller seats making 6 instead of the standard 4.
The rear panel of the aft cabin, the equipment cabinet and the raft launcher are also removed to allow unhindered access via the ramp."

Kristopherus · 24-02-2011 03:13AM

Go to bed:) Yuo'll feel better in the morning:):)

lapsed · 24-02-2011 03:33AM

SamuelFox wrote: »

This is just posturing. Every other country is sending a charter plane, why do the Irish need to send a military plane? Its not as comfortable and probably a lot more expensive. Reason: bragging rights in the mess. Another pointless waste of taxpayers money to boost DF egos.

What a stupid comment. The DF don't take decisions. They follow instructions from the Government.

dowlingm · 24-02-2011 05:33AM

After Canada got burned with the huge costs of extraction after Lebanon Israel kicked off a couple of years ago, there was huge public pressure to re-enforce rules where the Government can require evacuees to sign contracts to repay the cost of their extraction. An Air Canada B777 was sent to Cairo to ferry to Frankfurt (where a last minute bribe appears to have been demanded with passengers paying into a hat being passed around to raise two grand) and a Skylink 220 seater was sent/is being sent to Tripoli to ferry to Rome. For Libya it's $500 and one piece of luggage.

They could have sent a Polaris (A310 military/MATS fit) but I suppose it's easier to charge someone when the cost isn't buried in the mil budget but rather a nice easy invoice from a third party supplier.

twinytwo · 24-02-2011 10:15AM

SamuelFox wrote: »

This is just posturing. Every other country is sending a charter plane, why do the Irish need to send a military plane? Its not as comfortable and probably a lot more expensive. Reason: bragging rights in the mess. Another pointless waste of taxpayers money to boost DF egos.

Are you actually serious?? would you rather we sent a naval boat?. ****ing hell how can sending a means of getting our people out of a country that could end in civil war equal bragging rights

.If you were stuck in the country im sure you wouldnt care if they got you out in a hot air ballon.

And also England, france and greece have sent in military planes

gizmo555 · 24-02-2011 11:57AM

Steyr wrote: »

The Department says it was not possible to communicate with the flight when it was on the ground in Tripoli and it is awaiting a debriefing from the crew.

Apparently no-one thought of giving the crew a satellite phone to use while they were on the ground . . .

BrianD · 24-02-2011 12:57PM

Didn't go exactly according to plan yesterday did it? This is descending into a farce.

I am curious as to why these planes were sent. We've had situations before and there was no direct intervention. It seems that the Irish Government acted as fast if not faster than others. The current government don't seem to be making much publicity out of it . So what's the story? A favour to the companies whose employees are there? Is it the Defence Forces doing a favour for the Government who provided much needed modernisation funds over the years? A reminder to the incoming Government that the Air Corp are useful? WOuld be interesting to know how the decision came about.

The Brits were still having "technical problems" yesterday and if you noticed on the news last night that the pictures from Malta showed an RAF C-130 at the airport (assuming these pictures weren't file footage).

Listening to PK on Radio 1 this morning it seems clear that many of these companies don't have contingency plans to extract their people. These companies can not continue to trade like this and expect the state and taxpayer to bail out their employees when the going gets tough. The Canadian model of contract of repayment is a very fair system of dealing with this. They get you out and you repay the cost later.

Anyway, getting back to military matters. What state is the Libyan army and air defences in? The BBC news showed an "abandoned" SAM facility last night. Also he soesn't seem to be able to roll out what ever part of the army he still commands - and it seems that he does still have loyalty in sections of the armed forces.

There's also talk of him creating his own emirate within Libya which would be an interesting development.

Air Corps to collect Irish citizens from Libya

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