Wisconsin Protests

bazkennedy · 22-02-2011 01:03PM #1

What do people think of what's going on in Wisconsin at the moment. The Republic governor wants to bring in a labour bill that will remove the right to collective bargaining. This has cause several days of protests. Democratic state senators have fled the state to prevent the Republicans from holding a vote (the GOP are 1 vote short of a quorum)

Amerika · 22-02-2011 03:22PM

As a prior union member, I stand in solidarity with these unions.

Lets face it, without the benefit of unions... State, County and Municipalities would assuredly reintroduce child labor (the schools do have an ample supply you know). But you might ask yourself why would public servants need a union when there are a plethora of labor laws, civil rights laws and lawyers eager to take on any labor case? Or why would you need a union when you work in a monopolistic, non-competitive environment? Well, simply there’s nothing to see there, so please move along!

Who cares that the average teacher package in Milwaukee is over $100K (while the average income in WI is around $47K per year), and also is home to some of the poorest test scores in the country. The unions job is to work for their members, and it’s their job is to make schools into places of employment for adults rather than child-centered learning environments (those damn kids!). They’ve done their job pretty well so far, don’t you think? And all those union dues paid to the politicians should have bought them something, right? So why muck up such as wonderful system, even in this period of economic turmoil.

And forget about the $3 billion dollar WI state budget deficit over the next two years they keep yammering about. Much of Obama’s Stimulus package of $850 billion was used to try and cover many of the state employee salaries and benefit shortfalls. So just do it again and let our grandkids worry about it, or just raise everyone’s taxes. Does a 98% sales tax rate really sound so bad?

Long live the “3 C's”... Collusion, Corruption and Coercion, a union’s best friend!

(Thank god Ronald Reagan is no longer around and in power.)

I think I need some TEA.

RichieC · 22-02-2011 04:07PM

They're punishing the unions that didn't give Governor Walker support in the elections.

Manic Moran · 22-02-2011 05:55PM

I can't say I'm overall a fan of unions. Representative associations are one thing, but unions are a bit more dodgy. Unions of public employees, however, I am in no uncertainty at all. They are often quite powerful (California Teacher's Association is over a third of a million voters), and by voting, that means that they have control over the other side of the table, the government which is their employer. They're indirectly negotiating with themselves. Who can't see a conflict of interest here?

Either way, be public unions a good thing or a bad thing, the People of Wisconsin elected a set of representatives who are carrying out legitimate government policies, and are doing more or less what they said they would do if elected.

NTM

Amerika · 22-02-2011 07:41PM

Remember all the outrage over some of the signs and rhetoric at the Tea Party protests. My god, it was almost non-stop brouhaha. Hmmm… so where’s the outrage now? I guess silence is beholden.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=71gsnLfsbbM

Or is just a case of Union Protests – GOOD, Tea Party Protests – EVIL!

RichieC · 22-02-2011 10:43PM

Manic Moran wrote: »

Either way, be public unions a good thing or a bad thing, the People of Wisconsin elected a set of representatives who are carrying out legitimate government policies, and are doing more or less what they said they would do if elected.

By that logic so did Obama... yet the Tea partiers still flipped out about his healthcare reforms.

The argument i hear is "yea but we're talking about the mandatory buying of a private sector service which against the constitution". Yet, they were talking of blood watering the tree of liberty long before they knew anything about that.

On May 2nd, 1933, the day after Labor day, Nazi groups occupied union halls and labor leaders were arrested. Trade Unions were outlawed by Adolf Hitler, while collective bargaining and the right to strike was abolished. This was the beginning of a consolidation of power by the fascist regime which systematically wiped out all opposition groups, starting with unions, liberals, socialists, and communists using Himmler’s state police.
Fast forward to America today, particularly Wisconsin. Governor Walker and the Republican/Tea Party members of the state legislature are attempting to pass a bill that would not only severely punish public unions (with exception for the police, fire, and state trooper unions that supported his campaign), but it would effectively end 50 years to the right of these workers to collectively bargain.

Collective bargaining is a process of voluntary negotiations between employers and trade unions aimed at reaching agreements which regulate working conditions. Collective agreements usually set out wage scales, working hours, training, health and safety, overtime, grievance mechanisms and rights to participate in workplace or company affairs.

First of all, assaulting the rights of workers to collectively bargain has absolutely nothing to do with any immediate budgetary issues. It does however have everything to do with ending one of the basic rights of labor to organize.
Second, and more importantly, the budget “crisis” in Wisconsin is both exaggerated and created in part by the new Republican power base as a tool to attack political opponents. Walker decreased state revenue when he enacted tax cuts for the rich and big corporations, who are not surprisingly large campaign donors for his political campaign.

http://newsjunkiepost.com/2011/02/20/may-1933-hitler-abolishes-unions/

feel free to dismiss everything stated in the article by evoking Godwins law or screaming about biased sources.

enjoy your night.

Manic Moran · 22-02-2011 11:35PM

RichieC wrote: »

By that logic so did Obama... yet the Tea partiers still flipped out about his healthcare reforms.

I'm not sure he did, actually. I can't recall off the top of my head exactly what it was that Obama had promised in the elections, but I strongly doubt he had been promising a 2,500 page colossus that seemed to make almost nobody happy.

And at that, I don't recall minority Congressional legislators walking away from the job.

And finally, most tea party members were likely not protesting as federal employees worried about their personal benefits.

The argument i hear is "yea but we're talking about the mandatory buying of a private sector service which against the constitution". Yet, they were talking of blood watering the tree of liberty long before they knew anything about that.

I certainly don't mean to imply that the teachers should just shut up and take it. On the other hand, there must also be a realisation that minority viewpoints will usually lose in the legislature. The safeguard against the tyranny of the majority is the Constitution and the law of the land, not minority parties absconding.

feel free to dismiss everything stated in the article by evoking Godwins law or screaming about biased sources.

Erm. Thank your for your permission...

Godwin's law attained in six posts! BIASED SOURCES SUCK!!!!

Happy?

From the article you quote, Adolf banned unions precisely because they hold massive political weight, which is the whole problem of the conflict of interest when it comes to public sector workers I had mentioned earlier. Effectively, they're telling the elected government "Give us what we want, or we'll use our political clout to get rid of you." Wouldn't you love to be able to tell your boss to give you a raise or you'll fire him? I know I would.

I have other issues with unions in general simply on the efficiency/economic side of things, but that's far less egregious than the conflict posed by public employees.

enjoy your night.

Thank you. Still afternoon here, though, I've a bit of time to go yet.

NTM

Denerick · 22-02-2011 11:41PM

The power of public sector unions in all western countries is disproportionately significant. That is not to say that I support a stripping away of a fundamental advance of mankind (The right of labour to organise, to struggle for better conditions, and generally to improve the lot of society)

RichieC · 23-02-2011 12:05AM

Manic Moran wrote: »

I certainly don't mean to imply that the teachers should just shut up and take it. On the other hand, there must also be a realisation that minority viewpoints will usually lose in the legislature. The safeguard against the tyranny of the majority is the Constitution and the law of the land, not minority parties absconding.

So the right never lower themselves to legislative shenanigans to get their way?

This is power play to appease the big business money that put the tea party candidates in power, in time the normal joe soaps who are reacting to this via their knee jerk identity politics will realise the mistake they made, and only when it is too late. Just like the Campaign Finance Laws the supreme court over turned last year, you'll be alive to regret it.

Manic Moran · 23-02-2011 04:38AM

RichieC wrote: »

So the right never lower themselves to legislative shenanigans to get their way?

Not at all, but at least they use the rules of the legislature to do it, varying from filibuster through vote-trading. The Wisconsin Democrat Senators have gone beyond the rules of the legislature, so far beyond that under the Wisconsin law that authorises the Master at Arms to physically grab them to come back, they're outside the jurisdiction. Put another way, they were elected to represent their constituents in their seats in the legislature. They're nowhere near their seats.

The last time this happened was eight years ago in Texas, and it was Democrats there as well, at it happened.

This is power play to appease the big business money that put the tea party candidates in power, in time the normal joe soaps who are reacting to this via their knee jerk identity politics will realise the mistake they made, and only when it is too late.

Uh-huh. As opposed to the union money that gets put forward? The largest single political contributor in the 2010 election cycle appears to have been a union (Service Employees International Union Comittee on Political Education, $32.2m).The largest business PAC contribution was Honeywell, $5.6m.
Figures from campaignmoney.com

Just like the Campaign Finance Laws the supreme court over turned last year, you'll be alive to regret it.

I happen to agree with the Court's ruling. I'd prefer if there was no private funding at all for election campaigns, to include the candidate's personal fortune, but if there is, well, so be it. Although you'll note that the Citizen's United ruling does allow unions to contribute independently as well: they're also corporations, after all.

NTM

Manic Moran · 23-02-2011 05:12AM

And again. Indiana this time.

http://www.indystar.com/article/20110222/NEWS/110222004/House-Democrats-flee-Indiana-stop-votes?odyssey=mod|breaking|text|IndyStar.com

Seats on one side of the Indiana House were nearly empty today as House Democrats departed the the state rather than vote on anti-union legislation.

A source tells The Indianapolis Star that Democrats are headed to Illinois, though it was possible some also might go to Kentucky. They need to go to a state with a Democratic governor to avoid being taken into police custody and returned to Indiana.

The House came into session twice this morning, with only three of the 40 Democrats present. Those were needed to make a motion, and a seconding motion, for any procedural steps Democrats would want to take to ensure Republicans don’t do anything official without quorum.

With only 58 legislators present, there was no quorum present to do business. The House needs 67 of its members to be present.

NTM

Exile 1798 · 23-02-2011 09:42AM

Amerika wrote: »

As a prior union member, I stand in solidarity with these unions.

Lets face it, without the benefit of unions... State, County and Municipalities would assuredly reintroduce child labor (the schools do have an ample supply you know). But you might ask yourself why would public servants need a union when there are a plethora of labor laws, civil rights laws and lawyers eager to take on any labor case? Or why would you need a union when you work in a monopolistic, non-competitive environment? Well, simply there’s nothing to see there, so please move along!

Who cares that the average teacher package in Milwaukee is over $100K (while the average income in WI is around $47K per year), and also is home to some of the poorest test scores in the country. The unions job is to work for their members, and it’s their job is to make schools into places of employment for adults rather than child-centered learning environments (those damn kids!). They’ve done their job pretty well so far, don’t you think? And all those union dues paid to the politicians should have bought them something, right? So why muck up such as wonderful system, even in this period of economic turmoil.

And forget about the $3 billion dollar WI state budget deficit over the next two years they keep yammering about. Much of Obama’s Stimulus package of $850 billion was used to try and cover many of the state employee salaries and benefit shortfalls. So just do it again and let our grandkids worry about it, or just raise everyone’s taxes. Does a 98% sales tax rate really sound so bad?

Long live the “3 C's”... Collusion, Corruption and Coercion, a union’s best friend!

(Thank god Ronald Reagan is no longer around and in power.)

I think I need some TEA.

So out of sarcastic stream of conciseness let's have a look at the only passing attempts at facts based argument.

Who cares that the average teacher package in Milwaukee is over $100K (while the average income in WI is around $47K per year),

False. And hey, if you're just going to make stuff up why not make it a cool million?

and also is home to some of the poorest test scores in the country.

Actually, some of the highest.

Wisconsin average ACT test score third highest in nation

http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/education/article_e1a9af02-aa5f-11df-a9ff-001cc4c002e0.html

RichieC · 23-02-2011 12:24PM

reposted from facebook:

Are you sick of highly paid teachers?

Teachers' hefty salaries are driving up taxes, and they only work 9 or10 months a year! It's time we put things in perspective and pay them for what they do - babysit!

We can get that for less than minimum wage.

That's right. Let's give them $3.00 an hour and only the hours they worked; not any of that silly planning time, or any time they spend before or after school. That would be $19.50 a day (7:45 to 3:00 PM with 45 min. off for lunch and plan-- that equals 6 1/2 hours).

Each parent should pay $19.50 a day for these teachers to baby-sit their children. Now how many students do they teach in a day...maybe 30? So that's $19.50 x 30 = $585.00 a day.

However, remember they only work 180 days a year!!! I am not going to pay them for any vacations.

LET'S SEE....

That's $585 X 180= $105,300

per year. (Hold on! My calculator needs new batteries).

What about those special

education teachers and the ones with Master's degrees? Well, we could pay them minimum wage ($7.75), and just to be fair, round it off to $8.00 an

hour. That would be $8 X 6 1/2 hours X 30 children X 180 days = $280,800 per year.

Wait a minute -- there's

something wrong here! There sure is!

The average teacher's salary

(nation wide) is $50,000. $50,000/180 days

= $277.77/per day/30

students=$9.25/6.5 hours = $1.42 per hour per student--a very inexpensive baby-sitter and they even EDUCATE your kids!) WHAT A DEAL!!!!

:pac:

RichieC · 23-02-2011 01:21PM

Manic Moran wrote: »

I happen to agree with the Court's ruling. I'd prefer if there was no private funding at all for election campaigns, to include the candidate's personal fortune, but if there is, well, so be it. Although you'll note that the Citizen's United ruling does allow unions to contribute independently as well: they're also corporations, after all.

NTM

Natch.

Sgt. Sensible · 23-02-2011 04:19PM

Exile 1798 wrote: »

False. And hey, if you're just going to make stuff up why not make it a cool million?

My ex lives there. The average salary for teachers in Wisconsin is around $48000. The median Wisconsin household income, according to the US Census Bureau is about $51,000.

I'm loathe to encourage any distasteful Nazi related derailing, but as for the guy going on about Hitler, it was absolutely essential that the organised working class opposition to the nazis had political clout as they were all that stood between him and his plans for war. In hindsight it's unfortunate that they didn't have enough damned clout, though this view depends on where one would place themselves on the German political spectrum between say 1928 and 1933.

Manic Moran · 23-02-2011 04:37PM

RichieC wrote: »

Natch.

Believe it or not, I actually had to look that up. Here's me thinking it was some form of eloquent and elegantly short argument.

Would you care to state your position on the concept of a public sector union hammering out negotiations with people they have a say in electing or not-re-electing, and why the non-union taxpayer isn't unfairly under-represented as a result of this situation?

NTM

20Cent · 23-02-2011 04:53PM

How could America call itself the land of the free if they ban collective bargaining?
How could it be banned anyway?

Sgt. Sensible · 23-02-2011 05:17PM

I read richiec's post incorrectly. Busy day. Apologies.

Manic Moran · 23-02-2011 06:57PM

Exile 1798 wrote: »

Actually, some of the highest.
http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/education/article_e1a9af02-aa5f-11df-a9ff-001cc4c002e0.html

This is true. Unfortunately, that is more a sad reflection of the state of education in the US as a whole.
Look at reading:

http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/pdf/main2009/2010458.pdf

Table on Page 16 shows a slight drop in Wisconsin's 4th grade reading scores between 1998 and 2008.

Tables on pages 53 and 54 show similar drops, with the 8th Grade figures showing no change (with about one in three students being 'proficient' in reading English), despite a 60% increase in per-pupil spending in real terms over the same amount of time.

It's one of those pyhrric successes.

NTM

Overheal · 23-02-2011 07:49PM

This is also a good time to mention I earned US College Credits for Honors classes I took in the Leaving Cert. Seems a bit crazy that Irish high school counterparts are doing college level stuff while US Students are doing... what exactly

Amerika · 23-02-2011 09:01PM

Exile 1798 wrote: »

False. And hey, if you're just going to make stuff up why not make it a cool million?

My post noting the $100k teacher package was regarding "Milwaukee," and teacher package includes salary plus benefits.
http://maciverinstitute.com/2010/03/average-mps-teacher-compensation-tops-100kyear/

Actually, some of the highest.

Once again, my post noted "Milwaukee."

Apologies will be accepted. (but somehow all I expect to get are yabuts)

RichieC · 24-02-2011 12:27AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBnSv3a6Nh4

amacachi · 24-02-2011 02:28AM

Overheal wrote: »

This is also a good time to mention I earned US College Credits for Honors classes I took in the Leaving Cert. Seems a bit crazy that Irish high school counterparts are doing college level stuff while US Students are doing... what exactly

Do any maths in high school? An American mate couldn't believe how much more we did when he moved over here.

For once I'm on the side of the unions, something that really doesn't happen very often.

cheesehead · 24-02-2011 04:19AM

Anectdotally, as a resident of Wisconsin, I would say sentiment on the street is running approximately 80% to 90% in favor of Gov. Scott Walker's position.

Many aren't viewing this as Democrat vs. Republican or Union vs. Non-Union.

Many view this as a matter of math. We simply can't continue to fully fund pension benefits and medical benefits for retired public workers.

My only complaint: Why didn't Walker include Police/Fire Unions in the bill (presently they are exempt). To me, that does smack of purely politics. Perhaps once this bill passes (and my prediction is it will), Walker will then go after the Police/Fire Unions.

As an aside: Is Walker setting himself up for a more "national" position? Like NJ Governor Chris Christie, the Republican Governors appear to be the ones leading the Republican Party at this point. Christie insists he has no plans to run for national office in 2012 (he hasn't ruled out 2016), but it's early, so who knows.

Overheal · 24-02-2011 04:48AM

amacachi wrote: »

Do any maths in high school? An American mate couldn't believe how much more we did when he moved over here.

For once I'm on the side of the unions, something that really doesn't happen very often.

I cant support the unions on this, sorry. A Public sector union that wants to bleed the taxpayer to do the same work and effectively eroding the value for dollar the education system provides.

No i never did US HS Math but I have gotten bits and pieces of it off of SAT prep tests and the like. It's alarmingly basic.

Perhaps we should just shut down most public schools and instead give the funding out as grants/scholarships to parents to get their kids into privately run schools.

Memnoch · 24-02-2011 08:01AM

Overheal wrote: »

I cant support the unions on this, sorry. A Public sector union that wants to bleed the taxpayer to do the same work and effectively eroding the value for dollar the education system provides.

No i never did US HS Math but I have gotten bits and pieces of it off of SAT prep tests and the like. It's alarmingly basic.

Perhaps we should just shut down most public schools and instead give the funding out as grants/scholarships to parents to get their kids into privately run schools.

This is the problem right here. It doesn't matter whether you agree or disagree with the unions on THIS issue or THAT issue. Just like it doesn't matter whether you agree or disagree with Human Rights law on this issue or that issue.

Either people should have the right to bargain collectively or they shouldn't, that's the principle at stake here.

I stand firmly behind the right of people to democratically band together in order to protect their rights. Removing this right is a fundamental blow to the idea of basic democracy.

20Cent · 24-02-2011 01:03PM

Regarding the comments about it not being fair that Unions have more access to negotiation than other people. Isn't it interesting that while Democratic party senators in Wisconsin can't get replies from Walker a wealthy donor David Koch can just call up and chat away so easily. Shows that Walker is not opposed to talking to interest groups. Just it is the ones that give him lots of money.

Amerika · 24-02-2011 02:02PM

Memnoch wrote: »

I stand firmly behind the right of people to democratically band together in order to protect their rights. Removing this right is a fundamental blow to the idea of basic democracy.

Collective Bargaining is not a right! It is merely a privilege bestowed on unions by a legislature of whom many receive substantial donations from the unions. And privileges can and should be revoked if abused as in the case of teacher unions.

How does tenure and probationary periods, leaves and sabbaticals, some of the most important issues of teacher union collective bargaining efforts, help educate our children? It actually does more harm than good for the education process.

Let’s face it, what the teachers union is most afraid of is school districts wishing to no longer automatically withhold union dues from teachers and paying those monies to the unions. They want it to be the responsibility of the teachers to pay their dues themselves. This would probably decrease dues money received by unions by 30%-40% if it is let up to the teachers themselves to pay their dues. It really is all about the union money (in my opinion).

BluePlanet · 24-02-2011 03:09PM

Amerika wrote: »

It really is all about the union money (in my opinion).

But i thought this wasn't about union busting, and was really about solving a budget crisis?

At least that little pretense has been dropped.

Amerika · 24-02-2011 03:20PM

BluePlanet wrote: »

But i thought this wasn't about union busting, and was really about solving a budget crisis?

At least that little pretense has been dropped.

No... for the union bosses, it seems to really be all about the dues money. For the Governor of WI, it is all about dealing with a budget deficit.

RichieC · 24-02-2011 03:24PM

It's all about stripping the rights of workers, the republicans get a lot of money from people wanting this, so they do.

It amazes me, every political issue that pops up in america they're guaranteed half will oppose and half will support, all they need to to is present it either as leftish or rightish and the people think no further!

Sean Hannity supports this! it must be something I'd support!

*heads off to brush up on talking points I can use on the interwebz*

Stripping workers rights should be an issue everyone who is not a squillionaire should oppose.

Wisconsin Protests

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