Fine Gael policy to end compusory Irish till Leaving Cert

Amhran Nua · 07-02-2011 03:57PM

Snakeblood wrote: »

Nah, English and Math for example in Ireland have proven they are useful to the overwhelming majority of students. People need those. They should be mandatory.

Really? How many people use maths beyond basic arithmetic on a regular basis? How many people use what they learned from Shakespeare on a regular basis? If you look at it from a utilitarian perspective, neither of these subjects are at all vital. I'm playing devil's advocate here, but that doesn't mean the issued rasied are wrong.

Snakeblood wrote: »

That's not a chip on my shoulder about bad lessons, that was not seeing what sense learning Irish made.

I hope the points I have made have helped in explaining at least some of what sense it can make.

Snakeblood wrote: »

at the moment I don't see the spark, and I think forcing people to do something extinguishes any possible spark.

I don't know, I think a lot of people would be quite happy to learn Irish even as adults if they were presented with an intelligent and enjoyable curriculum which does not at this time exist. That depends on the circles you move in of course, but it would certainly reflect my experiences on the matter.

LordSutch · 07-02-2011 04:04PM

Snakeblood wrote: »

Nah, English and Math for example in Ireland have proven they are useful to the overwhelming majority of students. People need those. They should be mandatory. Then after that there should be more of a choice given to students.

Well indeed, English & Maths are among several subjects that should be compulory, but I think a choice of language would be nice, so instead of compulsive Irish, maybe a choice between Irish, German, Spanish, or French (for example) would be the selection?

Snakeblood wrote: »

I'm fine with Irish as a national language, I think it's an uphill struggle, and I think that there'll have to be some sort of need for Irish to make it regain something like its former importance. Like if Sinn Fein came to power on a nationalist fervour after the entire country goes belly up, it might provide a spark for the revival, but at the moment I don't see the spark, and I think forcing people to do something extinguishes any possible spark. There needs to be an advantage to Irish. it can be an emotional one, but it was never made clear.

'Spark' is right, but we certainly don't need the Shinners for that, and anyway, I thought they had stopped that kinda carry on

Guy:Incognito · 07-02-2011 04:04PM

Mental Mickey wrote: »

Very insightful. :rolleyes:

Oh, my appologies, should I tow the line and join groups to demand Irish be beaten in to everyone in the country?

Peopel should be free to make their own choices and if those choices coflict with yours and you see that as dilluting Irish culture, well thats your problem, not anyone elses. You go have whatever culture and values suit you and I'll have mine. Just dont try force yours on me.

I was forced to learn Irish right up to leaving cert (even though I made a conscious decision to attend a German school here for 2nd level)and I have never once had the need or inclination to use any of it outside of the classroom.

kraggy · 07-02-2011 04:06PM

Snakeblood wrote: »

Classical Studies, Japanese and Lithuanian aren't compulsory. If there aren't enough numbers to support them, they'll be cut.

Irish is compulsory, despite large numbers of people not wanting to do it.

Do you see there is a difference there?

syklops wrote: »

But his main argument is not resources, his argument is along similar lines as me. By having it compulsory it damages the language. People want to be able to make their own choices when it comes to their own education. Forcing people to take the subject just makes people bitter towards the language. As has been pointed out, this bitterness breeds bitterness and over time the language becomes less popular.

Can you not see that having it as a compulsory language damages the language?

I can see you are both coming from, and indeed, forcing people to do a subject that is taught badly with boring content is definitely a way to turn people off it.

However, if you revamp the curriculum, make it interesting, relevant and give the majority of the marks for oral, then you'll increase the percentage of people who want to do it.

Many people can't stand maths. Should we make that an optional subject too? Afterall, when are we going to have to prove the binomial theorem or calculate the cosine of an angle in the real world?

TeddyTedson · 07-02-2011 04:08PM

Why are they protesting? If people want to learn Irish they can still do it for the leaving cert, forcing people who don't want to is just pointless.
If they really want to revive the language they should just start making all primary schools thought through Irish.

Snakeblood · 07-02-2011 04:12PM

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Really? How many people use maths beyond basic arithmetic on a regular basis? How many people use what they learned from Shakespeare on a regular basis? If you look at it from a utilitarian perspective, neither of these subjects are at all vital. I'm playing devil's advocate here, but that doesn't mean the issued rasied are wrong.

I hope the points I have made have helped in explaining at least some of what sense it can make.

I don't know, I think a lot of people would be quite happy to learn Irish even as adults if they were presented with an intelligent and enjoyable curriculum which does not at this time exist. That depends on the circles you move in of course, but it would certainly reflect my experiences on the matter.

Well, I'd think Maths is a basic building block for any further numeracy related learning to come (and many students do go on to further education where skills beyond numeracy are required), I'd guess at a rate far past the (wikipedia sourced) 70-80 thousand daily use Irish speakers in the world.

Ditto English, which (I covered this in a previous post) encourages critical thinking and analysis, and the ability to communicate well with others. I would think they are vital to interpret complicated concepts of our troublesome modern world. With that said, I did my best to ignore Maths as a subject.

Irish at present *doesn't* help the vast majority who learn it communicate with others which is a major problem with it. It's ignoring the main purpose of a language. English does that job in Ireland, and I don't think Irish has the advantages necessary to take back its spot. Culturally it would be nice to have, but I don't see it happening, and if it doesn't have a genuine utility, then at best it will be an affectation.

Yes, it does make more sense, but not enough to justify removing choice from the equation, for me.

I think many adults and children would be happy to learn Irish. I think that they should have the choice, certainly.

I'm not 100% on utility, but I don't think it can be ignored.What benefit does it give to the man in the street who is on the fence whether to greet someone in Irish or English to choose Irish?

Guy:Incognito · 07-02-2011 04:13PM

kraggy wrote: »

Many people can't stand maths. Should we make that an optional subject too? Afterall, when are we going to have to prove the binomial theorem or calculate the cosine of an angle in the real world?

Knowign how to do these things can be usefull to a lot of 3rd level courses and can also get the brain working in different ways that can be used for much lower level stuff through life. What benefit can being thought Irish have that cant be replicated by learning another language that a person could well find usefull and can make use of later in life?

TeddyTedson wrote: »

If they really want to revive the language they should just start making all primary schools thought through Irish.

Where do the foreign kids or even Irish kids returning here from living abroad fit in with that model?

deise go deo · 07-02-2011 04:30PM

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Where do the foreign kids or even Irish kids returning here from living abroad fit in with that model?

Well they would fit in just like everyone else, They would learn Irish in that model through Immersion education just like they do now in Gaelscoileanna.

Amhran Nua · 07-02-2011 04:50PM

Snakeblood wrote: »

Well, I'd think Maths is a basic building block for any further numeracy related learning to come (and many students do go on to further education where skills beyond numeracy are required), I'd guess at a rate far past the (wikipedia sourced) 70-80 thousand daily use Irish speakers in the world.

Ditto English, which (I covered this in a previous post) encourages critical thinking and analysis, and the ability to communicate well with others. I would think they are vital to interpret complicated concepts of our troublesome modern world. With that said, I did my best to ignore Maths as a subject.

But the overwhelming majority of people won't use maths beyond the barest basics, and you need a philosophy course to teach critical thinking, not English, where you can learn literary analysis, another skill of highly debatable value. And even with that I'd question the level of English that many people leaving school actually have. Perhaps another area where the course could use some revision?

Either way there's no more of a pressing need for these subjects to be mandatory than Irish, if you look at it in a hard light. Which is why the bigger picture needs to be taken into account, not simply will you personally be saying hello to people in one language or another.

I'll leave it there for now since AH isn't the best forum to discuss these things, but I'll just briefly summarise what I'm saying:

The value of subjects goes beyond their immediate utility, which is why some are mandatory
Culture has a very real and quantifiable value, not just in hard capital
The Irish language is a vital part of our culture
The Irish language curriculum is a train wreck at the moment, I think a lot less people would be opposed to it being mandatory if it was taugh in a reasonably sane fashion

Guy:Incognito · 07-02-2011 04:55PM

deise go deo wrote: »

Well they would fit in just like everyone else, They would learn Irish in that model through Immersion education just like they do now in Gaelscoileanna.

Not all kids are there to start at jumior infants is what I mean. Every year I'm sure there are kids around the country startign school in Ireland for the first time in each age group. Meaning you'll have a kid, be they a foreign kid coming here for the first time or an Irish kid returning that will go in to the school system at every age from 4 right up to 18. If everythign is thought through Irish, where do these kids fit in, given that they may well have never heard a word of the language in their lives. You cant just drop a 12 year old just arrived from Lituania in to an Irish school and assume all will be fine.

deise go deo · 07-02-2011 05:07PM

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Not all kids are there to start at jumior infants is what I mean. Every year I'm sure there are kids around the country startign school in Ireland for the first time in each age group. Meaning you'll have a kid, be they a foreign kid coming here for the first time or an Irish kid returning that will go in to the school system at every age from 4 right up to 18. If everythign is thought through Irish, where do these kids fit in, given that they may well have never heard a word of the language in their lives. You cant just drop a 12 year old just arrived from Lituania in to an Irish school and assume all will be fine.

Ah, I see, Well turning all primary schools into Gaelscoils is only an idea(And not really a practicle one) I honestly cant imagin that ALL primary schools well ever be turned into Gaelscoileanna, However in a situation where they were, I can only imagin it would really run on the same basis as in non English speaking countries.

Support for learning Irish from the school. In an immersion enviroment though children will learn a language very quickly, So while they would struggle to adapt for the first few months, They would still learn the language very quickly and would catch up to the rest of the class in a year or so.
This is what happens in Gaelscoileanna as it is. When kids start they dont have much Irish in general, But because it is an Immersion enviroment, they learn very fast.

Mental Mickey · 07-02-2011 05:17PM

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Oh, my appologies, should I tow the line and join groups to demand Irish be beaten in to everyone in the country?

Peopel should be free to make their own choices and if those choices coflict with yours and you see that as dilluting Irish culture, well thats your problem, not anyone elses. You go have whatever culture and values suit you and I'll have mine. Just dont try force yours on me.

I was forced to learn Irish right up to leaving cert (even though I made a conscious decision to attend a German school here for 2nd level)and I have never once had the need or inclination to use any of it outside of the classroom.

So you're not proud to be Irish then, are you not? Also, I think you should go back & learn English, if some of your spelling is anything to go by!?

Ri_Nollaig · 07-02-2011 05:17PM

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Roverek wrote: »

and just polish at school

Wait, what?

I think the correct use of case is very important there.

Snakeblood · 07-02-2011 05:26PM

Mental Mickey wrote: »

So you're not proud to be Irish then, are you not? Also, I think you should go back & learn English, if some of your spelling is anything to go by!?

Wanting to learn Irish has no bearing on being proud to be Irish.

Guy:Incognito · 07-02-2011 05:27PM

Mental Mickey wrote: »

So you're not proud to be Irish then, are you not? Also, I think you should go back & learn English, if some of your spelling is anything to go by!?

Is that the best you can come up with? Letters the wrong way around are nothing to do with my spelling and all to do with my typing. Maybe we should replace Irish with something usefull like more computer classes and ensuring everyone leaves school being able to touch type?

I'm no more or less proud of being Irish than I am any other parts of my life, especially ones that are accidents of birth rather than my own achievements. I'd rank thinks I made happen myself that influence my life higher than something that just happened that I'd no control over.

Krusader · 07-02-2011 05:28PM

I've thought lately why people dismiss Irish and say it's useless. But really has English been all that good to us, since the state was formed 90 years ago, we've had only 10 years of prosperity and we blew that. Now no Gaeilgóir in their right mind would want Irish to replace English because most Gaeilgóirí are bilingual or even multi-lingual and they know and understand the value of being able to speak multiple languages and how this effects your worldly view and your mental capacity for thinking outside the box.
People will say there's no value in learning Irish, there is the obvious cultural value but also the analytical one. A language is a code, teaching kids to break this code will only help to enhance their education and there mental abilities.
There was a study done last year by Queens University that kids in Gaeilscoileanna were surpassing their peers in English medium schools in Maths and guess what other subject English. How amazing is that.
The advantages of bi-lingualism are well documented and before people say why not teach French/Spanish/Mandarin etc. We do not have the resources to teach through these languages, we have them in Irish, we just need to reform our dated curriculum in primary and secondary schools

deise go deo · 07-02-2011 05:34PM

Crosáidí wrote: »

I've thought lately why people dismiss Irish and say it's useless. But really has English been all that good to us, since the state was formed 90 years ago, we've had only 10 years of prosperity and we blew that. Now no Gaeilgóir in their right mind would want Irish to replace English because most Gaeilgóirí are bilingual or even multi-lingual and they know and understand the value of being able to speak multiple languages and how this effects your worldly view and your mental capacity for thinking outside the box.
People will say there's no value in learning Irish, there is the obvious cultural value but also the analytical one. A language is a code, teaching kids to break this code will only help to enhance their education and there mental abilities.
There was a study done last year by Queens University that kids in Gaeilscoileanna were surpassing their peers in English medium schools in Maths and guess what other subject English. How amazing is that.
The advantages of bi-lingualism are well documented and before people say why not teach French/Spanish/Mandarin etc. We do not have the resources to teach through these languages, we have them in Irish, we just need to reform our dated curriculum in primary and secondary schools

Beside's the point of lack of resourses for teaching through a language other than Irish.

The most important factor is simple lack of Desire, Gaelscoileanna are far more popular than Forighn language immersion.

Guy:Incognito · 07-02-2011 05:36PM

Crosáidí wrote: »

.
People will say there's no value in learning Irish, there is the obvious cultural value but also the analytical one. A language is a code, teaching kids to break this code will only help to enhance their education and there mental abilities.

I addressed that point above, which leads on to your point below.

Crosáidí wrote: »

.

The advantages of bi-lingualism are well documented and before people say why not teach French/Spanish/Mandarin etc. We do not have the resources to teach through these languages, we have them in Irish, we just need to reform our dated curriculum in primary and secondary schools

Freing up 7 periods (I think it was in my secondary school) a week in secondary school and whatever time is spent in Primary on Irish is a lot of resources to redirect to a language people can use everyday in later life. Most kids dont learn eveyrthing through Irish anyway so we dont have the facilities for that either. With Irish takign up little or none of the school week of a large amount of kids, there would be plenty of time and resources to use teaching another European language.

Snakeblood · 07-02-2011 05:37PM

deise go deo wrote: »

Besides the point of lack of resources for teaching through a language other than Irish.

The most important factor is simple lack of Desire, Gaelscoileanna are far more popular than Foreign language immersion.

If desire is the major factor, then why is Irish compulsory in schools? Surely you should make people want to do it not make them do it.

deise go deo · 07-02-2011 05:39PM

Snakeblood wrote: »

If desire is the major factor, then why is Irish compulsory in schools? Surely you should make people want to do it not make them do it.

People do want to do it, The majority of people between 15 and 24 want Irish to remain compulsory.

There is no desire for forighn language immersion schools, there is for Gaelscoileanna.

Marcus.Aurelius · 07-02-2011 05:39PM

At last, a humane and intelligent policy about compulsory Irish in Secondary School. Long awaited progress on this would be very welcome.

I hope.

Snakeblood · 07-02-2011 05:41PM

deise go deo wrote: »

People do want to do it, The majority of people between 15 and 24 want Irish to remain compulsory.

There is no desire for forighn language immersion schools, there is for Gaelscoileanna.

They're not the only people in the country.

another thought: If they are willing for it to be compulsory, then hurrah, we don't need to force others, seeing as there is no risk of it becoming equivalent to classical studies on the totem pole. I'd rather whatever group wanted to to be compulsory did it themselves, they seem committed to the notion, not like the people who don't want to do it.

deise go deo · 07-02-2011 05:45PM

Snakeblood wrote: »

They're not the only people in the country.

Yes, But they are the people that this policy actually affects.

Guy:Incognito · 07-02-2011 05:45PM

deise go deo wrote: »

There is no desire for forighn language immersion schools, there is for Gaelscoileanna.

Do we have an foreign language immersion schools in this country for all these 15-24 years olds to compare?

deise go deo wrote: »

Yes, But they are the people that this policy actually affects.

This policy is not and should not be the only option on the table.Everyone in schools and everyone yet to go to a school from now until whenever the school system in abolished is affected and to a lesser extent so are the familes of any kids in schools.

Snakeblood · 07-02-2011 05:48PM

deise go deo wrote: »

Yes, But they are the people that this policy actually affects.

No, it affects 5-17 year olds. There's 2 years out of the 9 years you specify that it actually effects. That's just cherrypicking statistics. I believe most people outside the 15-24 age group don't want it compulsory, too.

deise go deo · 07-02-2011 05:49PM

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Do we have an foreign language immersion schools in this country for all these 15-24 years olds to compare?

Well there you have it, No one has set up these schools over the last 30 years, In the same period over 100 gaelscoileanna have been set up by parents. Which is in the most demand?

deise go deo · 07-02-2011 05:51PM

Snakeblood wrote: »

No, it affects 5-17 year olds. There's 2 years out of the 9 years you specify that it actually effects. That's just cherrypicking statistics. I believe most people outside the 15-24 age group don't want it compulsory, too.

How dose the LC affect 5 year olds? This policy is about the Irish for the LC, Not the whole education system. Those who are actually doing the LC are actually in the group most in favor of keeping it compulsory.

Guy:Incognito · 07-02-2011 05:52PM

deise go deo wrote: »

Well there you have it, No one has set up these schools over the last 30 years, In the same period over 100 gaelscoileanna have been set up by parents. Which is in the most demand?

Stop teaching Irish altoghter in schools then lets compare in 30 years time.
The last 10 - 15 years have seen a huge influx of foreign people to Ireland, so why not wait a while to see what influence all these people have to the debate.

deise go deo wrote: »

How dose the LC affect 5 year olds? .

It doesnt now but they will be doing it in future and as below it affects 5 year olds a lot more than it will affect the current 15-24 year olds.

deise go deo wrote: »

Not the whole education system. Those who are actually doing the LC are actually in the group most in favor of keeping it compulsory.

How many 18-24 year olds are doing the leaving? You cant use a group of 15-24 years olds as your arguement then say it's the people doing the leaveing now when the vast majority of peopel in that group are finished their leaving. Anyway is it not stupidly short sighted to go on the opinions of the people who will not be affected by any policy anyway? Anyone in the LC cycle now will be doing Irish regardless of what happens in the GE or any policies brought in thereafter.

Snakeblood · 07-02-2011 05:59PM

deise go deo wrote: »

How dose the LC affect 5 year olds? This policy is about the Irish for the LC, Not the whole education system. Those who are actually doing the LC are actually in the group most in favor of keeping it compulsory.

I'd hope that this would be the first step in removing Irish as a compulsory subject at all ages.

Do you know what proportion of the 15-24s they are? 15-24 is a big group.

iMax · 07-02-2011 05:59PM

I'll be lambasted for this, but I don't think it should be compulsary at all. I think Irish & Religion lessons should be given outside of the normal curriculum hours. Replace them with two european languages or one european one & one world one (Russian or chinese for example).

Irish is of no use outside of Ireland, whereby another language would be & Religion should not be in schools anyway.

For the record, I'm the father of a five year old who just started school this year & I'd still send her for the Irish lessons, until she was old enough to make up her own mind about it.

Fine Gael policy to end compusory Irish till Leaving Cert

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