Its official : public sector pay per hour is 49% higher than private sector

RichardAnd · 26-01-2011 02:03PM

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Kudos to you for putting it down to your age that you didn't get into debt, rather than claiming that it was because you were clever. And it's not just the young that avoided the pitfalls; age is my excuse too, because my attitudes and habits were shaped by growing up in a time when people simply didn't have much to spend, and I have lived accordingly.

I'm with you all the way: our economic difficulties are my problem, too. I have this idea, which appears strange to some of the demon spawn of the Celtic tomcat, that we are tied to one another as members of one society, and that it is a good thing if we operate together for the general good.

There is a term for it: social solidarity. It seems to have dropped out of the political lexicon for many people. When our government introduces economic measures, many ask "what's in it for me?" which is fair enough, but fewer people ask the second question "what's in it for us?".

My personal circumstances are fairly comfortable. I don't object to being made a bit less comfortable if it is part of a programme that is for the general good.

I would love to say my precocious wisdom allowed me to dodge the bullet of getting a mortgage but that would simply be untrue. No, I was simply lucky enough not to have been in a position to buy a house during the boom as I was in college. What does make me very thankful was that, after leaving school, I went into the PS as a clerical. Now, had I kept that job and not gone to college, it's entirely likely that I would have bought a house or an apartment or otherwise gotten myself into debt. I would like to say I wouldn't have but I simply can't. I'm lucky, that's all.

What I can say, however, is that I have learned from the experience of watching this mess unfold. I know now that taking on a debt is a serious commitment and should only be taken after careful consideration or, better yet, not taken at all.

To other people of younger years, this is not a time to let yourself become bogged down by what others have or by what others have done to you. Rather, look around and learn a few lessons so that when this happens again (and it will), you will be better prepared.

The_Honeybadger · 26-01-2011 02:23PM

fliball123 wrote: »

I wouldnt say its jealousy its fear and the fact that the money is not there to pay these guys I wish it was but it isnt

I did say that some are genuinely concerned for the country, ps wages are one problem in a multplicity of problems that we have, yet these are what are shouted about the most here, in some cases it most certainly is jealousy, this is however only my opinion. I will readily admit that it p***ed me off no end when my sis in law who has fewer qualifications than I do was earning more than I was for a relatively handy number in the PS (by her own admission), while I was doing 50+ hours a week and under ferocious pressure from my employer to up productivity or we'd all be out of a job. But I got over it, and am now focused on upskilling and getting a professional qualification to better myself. With the IMF and EU now involved, if PS wages need to be cut again they will be, I'm done with debating it on here.

gigino · 26-01-2011 03:47PM

mickeyk wrote: »

I will readily admit that it p***ed me off no end when my sis in law who has fewer qualifications than I do was earning more than I was for a relatively handy number in the PS (by her own admission), while I was doing 50+ hours a week and under ferocious pressure from my employer to up productivity or we'd all be out of a job.

From my relations as well, I know people in the private sector are not paid as much as we are in the the public sector, but thats their tough luck. They can get a job in the public sector if they want to. They made their own bed in the private sector and cannot expect the public sector to take more cuts.

P. Breathnach wrote: »

There is a term for it: social solidarity.

Social solidarity means the government standing up and backing the social partners.

The_Honeybadger · 26-01-2011 05:14PM

gigino wrote: »

From my relations as well, I know people in the private sector are not paid as much as we are in the the public sector, but thats their tough luck. They can get a job in the public sector if they want to. They made their own bed in the private sector and cannot expect the public sector to take more cuts.
.

That was the point of my post, perhaps you should re-read it gigino :rolleyes:

gigino · 26-01-2011 06:52PM

mickeyk wrote: »

That was the point of my post, perhaps you should re-read it gigino :rolleyes:

We are agreed on that so. Who cares if people, equally qualified in the same career in the private sector have to work longer hours for much less money. If they do not earn much thats their problem, they can always apply for a job in the public sector or else emigrate. Its not easy paying two mortgages on the reduced public sector pay of only 65k.

The_Honeybadger · 26-01-2011 07:36PM

gigino wrote: »

We are agreed on that so. Who cares if people, equally qualified in the same career in the private sector have to work longer hours for much less money. If they do not earn much thats their problem, they can always apply for a job in the public sector or else emigrate. Its not easy paying two mortgages on the reduced public sector pay of only 65k.

LOL! Indeed, a real struggle.

kaiser sauze · 26-01-2011 11:03PM

doc_17 wrote: »

I know the origionalk comment may have been in jest but the reality is every masn woman and child in Irreland now has at at least one mortgage - the bailout of the banks will be theirs to pay for the rest of their lives..

Is that what 'gigino' was alluding to?

gigino wrote: »

Lots of public servants have 2 or 3 mortgages, because during the celtic tiger years the greedy private sector banks and estate agents were encouraging us to buy holiday homes and investment properties to suppliment our pensions. Think of the Garda with the flat in Rathmines, the teacher with the holiday home etc. If you had one property which increased in value a lot, you could use it as the deposit on the 2nd property and so on. The private sector destroyed the economy. The public sector have already had cuts and should not have to pay for it. The loans / amount of money owed to the private sector has not been cut.

And private sector workers with non-permanent, eminently sackable and non-pensionable jobs did not?

Who forced these public sector workers to sign for the 2nd, 3rd or 4th loan?

gigino · 26-01-2011 11:34PM

kaiser sauze wrote: »

Who forced these public sector workers to sign for the 2nd, 3rd or 4th loan?

The greedy private sector enticed and profited from this. Now they are arguing for public sector wages to be reduced further but they are not reducing the amount of the loans. Lots of public servants - probably the majority in certain areas eg teachers, lecturers, Gardai, hospital workers etc have holiday homes, investment properties etc. The private sector went mad marketing these during the boom years. We did not cause the crash. Yet we have to pay for it now.
The private sector ripped us off.

kaiser sauze · 27-01-2011 12:07AM

gigino wrote: »

The greedy private sector enticed and profited from this. Now they are arguing for public sector wages to be reduced further but they are not reducing the amount of the loans. Lots of public servants - probably the majority in certain areas eg teachers, lecturers, Gardai, hospital workers etc have holiday homes, investment properties etc. The private sector went mad marketing these during the boom years. We did not cause the crash. Yet we have to pay for it now.
The private sector ripped us off.

Again...who forced these public (and private) sector workers to take out these loans?

queensinead · 27-01-2011 12:12AM

ardmacha wrote: »

Perhaps you haven't noticed that it has been cut twice to an average of 14% so far.

Yes, people who insist that "we need to cut PS pay" seem to forget that the PS had two substantial pay cuts before the latest Universal Social Charge, which everybody, including the PS workers, had to pay.

The reaction to both was interesting. When PS wages were cut, there was general celebration---"at last the country is doing the right thing", and so on
But the USC caused much more outrage--"ordinary workers are seeing their wages slashed. We cannot keep taking money out of the economy".

Remember that PS workers pay the USC as well, they pay the tax increases, and all the other new fees, charges and tax hikes. On top of the two earlier pay cuts.

noodler · 27-01-2011 12:29AM

gigino wrote: »

Our policemen, teachers and civil servants deserve to be paid more than anyone else as we got shafted by the private sector. It was the private sector who charged us so much for our houses and holiday homes and cars.

gigino wrote: »

Many piublic servants have big mortgages and loans to service so cannot have another pay cut. Its very hard to pay two mortgages on 65k a year.

gigino wrote: »

Lots of public servants have 2 or 3 mortgages, because during the celtic tiger years the greedy private sector banks and estate agents were encouraging us to buy holiday homes and investment properties to suppliment our pensions. Think of the Garda with the flat in Rathmines, the teacher with the holiday home etc. If you had one property which increased in value a lot, you could use it as the deposit on the 2nd property and so on. The private sector destroyed the economy. The public sector have already had cuts and should not have to pay for it. The loans / amount of money owed to the private sector has not been cut.

gigino wrote: »

From my relations as well, I know people in the private sector are not paid as much as we are in the the public sector, but thats their tough luck. They can get a job in the public sector if they want to. They made their own bed in the private sector and cannot expect the public sector to take more cuts.

Social solidarity means the government standing up and backing the social partners.

Don't be so naive - PS wages grew out of all proportion to sustainable revenues and productivity. Their own tough luck - do you actually re-read the crap you post?

gigino wrote: »

The greedy private sector enticed and profited from this. Now they are arguing for public sector wages to be reduced further but they are not reducing the amount of the loans. Lots of public servants - probably the majority in certain areas eg teachers, lecturers, Gardai, hospital workers etc have holiday homes, investment properties etc. The private sector went mad marketing these during the boom years. We did not cause the crash. Yet we have to pay for it now.
The private sector ripped us off.

The greedy private sector actually financed the PS wages durint the benchmarking fiasco actually.

You must have a mummu or daddy in the PS but that doesn't excuse ignoring the facts.

noodler · 27-01-2011 12:33AM

gigino wrote: »

The greedy private sector enticed and profited from this. Now they are arguing for public sector wages to be reduced further but they are not reducing the amount of the loans. Lots of public servants - probably the majority in certain areas eg teachers, lecturers, Gardai, hospital workers etc have holiday homes, investment properties etc. The private sector went mad marketing these during the boom years. We did not cause the crash. Yet we have to pay for it now.
The private sector ripped us off.

What about the 99.9% of the private sector who didn't cause the problem, yet still lost their jobs, pay, lost pensions etc?

They paid for the high PS wage bill when revenues were high and now they are being asked to suffer unemployment whilst any decrease has to be dragged from the PS kicking and screaming.

noodler · 27-01-2011 12:35AM

Wasn't the average pay cut in the 2010 budget 5%?

Wasn't the average pension levy 7.5%?

Is that not 12.5 rather than the 14 alot of people keep mentioning?

Head The Wall · 27-01-2011 12:50AM

Don't forget the tax credits that can be claimed against the pension payment reducing it further

And Gugino please tell us specifically how the private sector made anybody go into a bank and sign mortgage papers. I await your answer but I suspect you will find that people signed up to these mortgages of their own free volition.

gigino · 27-01-2011 01:13AM

noodler wrote: »

What about the 99.9% of the private sector who didn't cause the problem, yet still lost their jobs, pay, lost pensions etc?

They paid for the high PS wage bill when revenues were high and now they are being asked to suffer unemployment whilst any decrease has to be dragged from the PS kicking and screaming.

Its tough on most private sector workers but why did they not get public service jobs ? Most were not good enough. Thats why we deserve higher pay , more time off etc, and we should not apologise for it. We should go on strike if the government cuts our wages again. Many of us have commitments like additional properties / mortgages etc we cannot get rid of - yet the cost of these, payable to the private sector, is not reduced. Over 100,000 Irish people have have foreign ( not Irish ) holiday homes alone - yet most will not admit publically to it, for fear of jealousy, appearing foolish etc. Yet the costs have to be paid. No more pay cuts. Lots of people are down hundreds of euro per week.

whiteonion · 27-01-2011 01:36AM

In the Public Sector you can decide to NOT show up for work FOR OVER A ****ING YEAR and still get paid.
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/civil-servant-on-full-pay-during-years-absence-2511043.html

The Public Sector is a black hole where money is wasted never to return.

The Public Sector is what Linux/Unix geeks would refer to as /dev/null.

Head The Wall · 27-01-2011 01:45AM

I'll rehash this old nugget "We pay the best because we get the best"

It'll be interesting to see how that case ends up, I bet it'll be settled out of court and they'll pay her off when she hasn't a leg to stand on. Sure it's not their money they're spending

Matt Bauer · 27-01-2011 01:57AM

gigino wrote: »

Its tough on most private sector workers but why did they not get public service jobs ? Most were not good enough. Thats why we deserve higher pay , more time off etc, and we should not apologise for it. We should go on strike if the government cuts our wages again. Many of us have commitments like additional properties / mortgages etc we cannot get rid of - yet the cost of these, payable to the private sector, is not reduced. Over 100,000 Irish people have have foreign ( not Irish ) holiday homes alone - yet most will not admit publically to it, for fear of jealousy, appearing foolish etc. Yet the costs have to be paid. No more pay cuts. Lots of people are down hundreds of euro per week.

Do I detect a hint of sarcasm?

P. Breathnach · 27-01-2011 02:34AM

Matt Bauer wrote: »

Do I detect a hint of sarcasm?

Wow! Somebody noticed.

[Even if sarcasm is not the word I would choose.]

Treehouse72 · 27-01-2011 04:29AM

I think satire's the word.

Count Dooku · 27-01-2011 09:30AM

P. Breathnach wrote: »

There is a term for it: social solidarity. It seems to have dropped out of the political lexicon for many people.

Because it become excuse to preserve income of those who got everything for nothing on expense of ordinary private sector workers

macannrb · 27-01-2011 10:09AM

Count Dooku wrote: »

Because it become excuse to preserve income of those who got everything for nothing on expense of ordinary private sector workers

And because it means higher taxes for everyone, and a bigger hole to dig ourselves out of in 5 years time

fliball123 · 27-01-2011 10:49AM

mickeyk wrote: »

I did say that some are genuinely concerned for the country, ps wages are one problem in a multplicity of problems that we have, yet these are what are shouted about the most here, in some cases it most certainly is jealousy, this is however only my opinion. I will readily admit that it p***ed me off no end when my sis in law who has fewer qualifications than I do was earning more than I was for a relatively handy number in the PS (by her own admission), while I was doing 50+ hours a week and under ferocious pressure from my employer to up productivity or we'd all be out of a job. But I got over it, and am now focused on upskilling and getting a professional qualification to better myself. With the IMF and EU now involved, if PS wages need to be cut again they will be, I'm done with debating it on here.

Its not jealousy..if you look at the other areas of spend which is the problem or overspend..The likes of the dole, money spent on public services itself and pensions all got cut this budget and will continue to be cut but under the cpa the ps wage and numbers cannot be cut. As I say its not jealousy its fear as the p.s wage spend is out of control as is all other areas but at least they are cutting back on all other areas...

fliball123 · 27-01-2011 10:54AM

queensinead wrote: »

Yes, people who insist that "we need to cut PS pay" seem to forget that the PS had two substantial pay cuts before the latest Universal Social Charge, which everybody, including the PS workers, had to pay.

The reaction to both was interesting. When PS wages were cut, there was general celebration---"at last the country is doing the right thing", and so on
But the USC caused much more outrage--"ordinary workers are seeing their wages slashed. We cannot keep taking money out of the economy".

Remember that PS workers pay the USC as well, they pay the tax increases, and all the other new fees, charges and tax hikes. On top of the two earlier pay cuts.

Guys its simple if the ps wage gets cut it means people have to pay less tax...

anyway I aggree with a previous poster as this argument is going to be redundant as it will be cut in sept as with the usc taxing the fcuk out of everyone we are well beyond the point of diminishing returns..The dole will get another cut this dec as will pensions but tax cannot be raised anymore as I reckon a lot of people paying taxes will leave the country between now and the end of the year meaning less tax take even do the tax has risen.

Best of luck p.s I do want to see a cut in your wage but I hope its done at sensible level

fliball123 · 27-01-2011 10:59AM

gigino wrote: »

Its tough on most private sector workers but why did they not get public service jobs ? Most were not good enough. Thats why we deserve higher pay , more time off etc, and we should not apologise for it. We should go on strike if the government cuts our wages again. Many of us have commitments like additional properties / mortgages etc we cannot get rid of - yet the cost of these, payable to the private sector, is not reduced. Over 100,000 Irish people have have foreign ( not Irish ) holiday homes alone - yet most will not admit publically to it, for fear of jealousy, appearing foolish etc. Yet the costs have to be paid. No more pay cuts. Lots of people are down hundreds of euro per week.

Your an obvious troll. There has been an embargo for the last 2/3 years.. In any other country their public sector and in this country historically ps workers are paid less as they get a lot of perks such as over iinflated penions etc...But this is no longer sustainable. Remember there are a lot more people in the private sector with higher education than the p.s...and for anyone with more than one home and struggling bad luck for them. Sell one of the properties even if its in neg equity and consolidate ... I am not as a tax payer prepared to pay for your overly lavish lifestyle...What makes you think you deserve 2/3/4 properties when the majority of people paying your wage cannot afford one...Either your a toll or your deluded

RichardAnd · 27-01-2011 11:45AM

fliball123 wrote: »

Your an obvious troll. There has been an embargo for the last 2/3 years.. In any other country their public sector and in this country historically ps workers are paid less as they get a lot of perks such as over iinflated penions etc...But this is no longer sustainable. Remember there are a lot more people in the private sector with higher education than the p.s...and for anyone with more than one home and struggling bad luck for them. Sell one of the properties even if its in neg equity and consolidate ... I am not as a tax payer prepared to pay for your overly lavish lifestyle...What makes you think you deserve 2/3/4 properties when the majority of people paying your wage cannot afford one...Either your a toll or your deluded

I think you're taking a post that is totally sardonic a little seriously

Count Dooku · 27-01-2011 11:47AM

fliball123 wrote: »

There has been an embargo for the last 2/3 years..

public service numbers and pensioners, based on whole time equivalent measurement increased to 380,953 in 2010 from 373,228 in 2009

http://www.finance.gov.ie/documents/publications/reports/2010/payanal0510.pdf

:rolleyes:

The_Thing · 27-01-2011 09:03PM

fliball123 wrote: »

Guys its simple if the ps wage gets cut it means people have to pay less tax...

Guys it simple - I don't give a fcuk about the private sector and the problems they've created for themselves. As I've stated before the only loan I ever have had was one for £4,000 to buy a car. I never got into debt because I was afraid of losing the farm I had inherited to some fat cat in a suit if I couldn't repay the loan. I will not be made a scapegoat for the excesses of others. We have had two pay cuts already. If my salary is cut further I will do less work. I will put my feet up every afternoon and read the Farmers Journal.

Treehouse72 · 27-01-2011 10:27PM

The_Thing wrote: »

Guys it simple - I don't give a fcuk about the private sector and the problems they've created for themselves. As I've stated before the only loan I ever have had was one for £4,000 to buy a car. I never got into debt because I was afraid of losing the farm I had inherited to some fat cat in a suit if I couldn't repay the loan. I will not be made a scapegoat for the excesses of others. We have had two pay cuts already. If my salary is cut further I will do less work. I will put my feet up every afternoon and read the Farmers Journal.

You talk about the "private sector" as though it is a lumpen mass of Seanie Fitzpatricks. You honestly think everyone in the private sector is a fat cat? For the love of Christ the way some of you go on you'd swear the banking sector IS the private sector. What about the burger flippers in Borza takeaway and the trolly girls in Tesco and the taxi drivers and the small sole traders and the retail workers and the call centre workers and the cleaners and the security guards? Not too many of them wearing suits. But somehow these people count as "fat cats". The doziness of thinking here is infuriating.

As for the "excesses of others", what about benchmarking for God's sake?? Was that not excessive? And how come it was ok on the way up, but not on the way down? How is that fair? How is that deal not one that should be stood over?

Finally, you low paid PS workers need to cut the rest loose. You might have a case for limited cuts, but anyone on over the median/average industrial wage in the PS is fair game IMO.

thebman · 27-01-2011 10:45PM

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I'm with you all the way: our economic difficulties are my problem, too. I have this idea, which appears strange to some of the demon spawn of the Celtic tomcat, that we are tied to one another as members of one society, and that it is a good thing if we operate together for the general good.

There is a term for it: social solidarity. It seems to have dropped out of the political lexicon for many people. When our government introduces economic measures, many ask "what's in it for me?" which is fair enough, but fewer people ask the second question "what's in it for us?".

My personal circumstances are fairly comfortable. I don't object to being made a bit less comfortable if it is part of a programme that is for the general good.

That is all well and good for you that you are in comfortable personal circumstances but least we forget, the reason these cuts have to be made is that ignoring our current deficit, we have a debt mountain which is increasing in size due to punishing interest repayments and we have to renew some of these bonds at higher interest rates even if accessing the bailout funds in the future.

We have to work very hard to stop ourselves defaulting and no amount of tax increases will solve the problem.

You talk about social solidarity yet the research is there to show tax increases make recovery more difficult than spending cuts. It is freely available on the IMF's website.

Social solidarity would say the state must reduce in size for the sake of society in general. I would suggests starting with some of the quango's, tax increases will have to happen too of course but the majority must come from spending cuts for the sake of a speedier recovery IMO.

Not a witch hunt against public sector workers as some on here would love to claim but unfortunately the harsh reality of the situation we find ourselves in, IMO.

Its official : public sector pay per hour is 49% higher than private sector

Comments