Ned O'Keefe & All That Is Wrong With Irish Politics

starbelgrade · 25-01-2011 10:21AM #1

In Cork East, Ned O’Keefe, who has been a TD since 1982 has announced he’s retiring. In a statement on the radio this morning, he managed to inadvertently sum up all that is wrong with Irish politics...

To paraphrase, he said, "If you fill the potholes, build the houses & get people the medical card, you'll be in The Dail forever".

As he steps down, his son, councillor Kevin O’Keefe, will contest his seat.

So there we have it - nepotism, the parish pump politics & a stark realisation of why a large percentage of the electorate consistently vote the way they do, all summed up nicely in one sentence & one action.

If ever there was a prime example of why the Dail is badly in need of reform, then this would be one.

yosemite_sam · 25-01-2011 10:23AM

Yes the son is running, when will they learn

gandalf · 25-01-2011 11:00AM

Unfortunately for a lot of people who cast their votes in a General Election they cannot distinguish between the work of a county councillor and that of a national representative. Until we as a people can separate this fully then there will always be a temptation for these TD's to cater for the lowest common denominator which is peoples individual greed.

The main thing I want from any new Government is addressing this issue. Until we can stop our national representatives from thinking their duty is to fill potholes, open schools, attend every funeral in their constituency then we are risking a similar situation happening in this country again where everyone has their eye off the big picture because they are stuck focusing on microscopic local issues.

I really would love an end to so-called family dynasty seats as well. Again people are lazy with their votes in this country. They will vote for someone because they recognise their name.

Also who says that being a county councillor is the best training to be a national representative. It sounds to me that it just ingrains the bad practice of sorting local issues ahead of the national ones that they should be dealing with.

Riskymove · 25-01-2011 11:04AM

gandalf wrote: »

Until we as a people can separate this fully then there will always be a temptation for these TD's to cater for the lowest common denominator which is peoples individual greed.

+1

until people stop basing their vote on such things, candidates will continue to operate like this

later12 · 25-01-2011 11:05AM

gandalf wrote: »

Also who says that being a county councillor is the best training to be a national representative. It sounds to me that it just ingrains the bad practice of sorting local issues ahead of the national ones that they should be dealing with.

Nobody says it's the best training, as far as i know, but it certainly can be a good indicator of how worthwhile the candidate can be before the potential elevation to a more senior and responsible public role on a national level.

If a local councillor had a strong track record in delivering on policy issues, and was able to show himself to be in touch with the public, and brave in his political will, then I would suggest that he could be a very valuable TD and that his role as a councillor would only be of benefit from the point of view of showcasing his talents through the work that he had undertaken locally. Just like a CEO's job can showcase or underline his particular skills set, or the leader of a voluntary group, or so on.

gandalf · 25-01-2011 11:20AM

Riskymove wrote: »

+1

until people stop basing their vote on such things, candidates will continue to operate like this

I don't feel that people will change? At the end of the day the Irish electorate seem particularly selfish. How else can you explain how Michael Lowry, Beverley Cooper Flynn and Jackie Healy Rae get re-elected.

A couple of things can be done immediately. Put a system in place where if a TD makes representations about local issues those issues are put to the back of the queue and both the TD and the party who requested the intervention are told this.

A longer term solution is that of a total list system for National Representatives and the total reform of local government which I do believe should be one of the priorities of the incoming regime.

P. Breathnach · 25-01-2011 11:21AM

starbelgrade wrote: »

... To paraphrase, he said, "If you fill the potholes, build the houses & get people the medical card, you'll be in The Dail forever"....

gandalf wrote: »

Unfortunately for a lot of people who cast their votes in a General Election they cannot distinguish between the work of a county councillor and that of a national representative...

Filling the potholes etc. is not the function of a local representative either. That's administrative and practical work, and is the realm of public servants.

later10 wrote: »

... If a local councillor had a strong track record in delivering on policy issues ...

That's what it should be about: policy. Councillors have a role in setting priorities, giving general direction to local administration (a role exercised when they are functioning as a council). It is reasonable for an individual councillor to let the engineering service know about a pothole problem on a particular road; it is not reasonable for a councillor to decide the scheduling of road maintenance and repair operations.

mgmt · 25-01-2011 11:22AM

We need to reduce the Dail to at most a 100 TDs. That way there could be live debates on tv between the candidates.

P. Breathnach · 25-01-2011 11:25AM

gandalf wrote: »

... A couple of things can be done immediately. Put a system in place where if a TD makes representations about local issues those issues are put to the back of the queue and both the TD and the party who requested the intervention are told this....

Don't underestimate the cute-hoorism of Irish politicians: they would make representations about all local issues except the ones they favour.

gandalf · 25-01-2011 11:27AM

later10 wrote: »

Nobody says it's the best training, as far as i know, but it certainly can be a good indicator of how worthwhile the candidate can be before the potential elevation to a more senior and responsible public role on a national level.

If a local councillor had a strong track record in delivering on policy issues, and was able to show himself to be in touch with the public, and brave in his political will, then I would suggest that he could be a very valuable TD and that his role as a councillor would only be of benefit from the point of view of showcasing his talents through the work that he had undertaken locally. Just like a CEO's job can showcase or underline his particular skills set, or the leader of a voluntary group, or so on.

To be honest at the moment all I see is that local councillors are nothing more that assistants to TD's and that is how they are portrayed on any literature that violates my letterbox. Just because someone is good at getting potholes fixed or repair street lights does not automatically mean they have the skills to decide on NATIONAL jobs strategies or complex economic issues.

Personally I believe we need to drastically reduce the number of Councils and to make County Councillors fully paid positions with no interference from their colleagues in the national parliament.

petroltimer · 25-01-2011 11:29AM

i think what your saying is why we need a big drop in the number of TD's, we got 26 counties not sure of the numbers but say 8 for dublin 3 for cork, galway, limerick and 2 for the rest so roughly around 60-65 TD's this would mean they would have to focus on national issues, would not have enough time for all the local things so county councilors do their job.

gandalf · 25-01-2011 11:31AM

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Don't underestimate the cute-hoorism of Irish politicians: they would make representations about all local issues except the ones they favour.

Well maybe a better mechanism is to include a clause that if X number of representations happen a TD is banned from seeking re-election.

Tea drinker · 25-01-2011 11:32AM

mgmt wrote: »

We need to reduce the Dail to at most a 100 TDs. That way there could be live debates on tv between the candidates.

maybe less then they won't have time to be fvckin about opening off licences. Well, LESS time.

later12 · 25-01-2011 12:00PM

gandalf wrote: »

To be honest at the moment all I see is that local councillors are nothing more that assistants to TD's

Assistant probably isn't the correct word, but I would say protogé, yes absolutely. While they have some delegated powers, they are essentially junior to a TD in terms of policy scope and influence both in terms of governance and within their political organisation. I don't see anything wrong with that. If you want to see an overhaul of the local government system, fine, but that is a longer term issue which would require constitutional amendment. My point was one of councillors becoming TDs and I think there is nothing wrong with it under the current format, and in some cases it is better for the councillor to get a dose of reality before considering whether or not he may be ready for national politics.

Just because someone is good at getting potholes fixed or repair street lights does not automatically mean they have the skills to decide on NATIONAL jobs strategies or complex economic issues.

You could say the same for anyone who puts themselves forward as a first time candidate, be that a CEO, a policeman or an RTE Economics Editor. However at least in the case of councillors, their achievments on policy issues can be publicly assessed and measured.

Bottle_of_Smoke · 25-01-2011 12:06PM

starbelgrade wrote: »

As he steps down, his son, councillor Kevin O’Keefe, will contest his seat.

So there we have it - nepotism, the parish pump politics & a stark realisation of why a large percentage of the electorate consistently vote the way they do, all summed up nicely in one sentence & one action.

Is it really fair to call that nepotism? I mean its not like the seat is just being given to him. He has to get elected.

johngalway · 25-01-2011 12:16PM

starbelgrade wrote: »

"If you fill the potholes, build the houses & get people the medical card, you'll be in The Dail forever".

And he is correct. But it's unfair to lay all of the blame at the politicians doorstep for that. Try dealing with some civil servants when they think they're right, or the computer tells them they're right. Without a pol, or a solicitor, see how far you get. That is from personal experience, when the little person on the street is wrong, they're wrong, when they're right, they're still wrong.

I would much prefer a system that works for the people, instead of one that works for it's own interests.

starbelgrade · 25-01-2011 12:21PM

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Is it really fair to call that nepotism? I mean its not like the seat is just being given to him. He has to get elected.

His son is already a FF councillor & he'd have to be nominated by the party to run for the general elections... I could be wrong, but I'm sure that his father's position in FF had something to do with both of these things.

It's no guarantee that he'll get elected, granted, but that's besides the point.

hotmail.com · 25-01-2011 12:23PM

Do TDs get medical cards for their constituents when they're not entitled to them?

starbelgrade · 25-01-2011 12:23PM

johngalway wrote: »

And he is correct. But it's unfair to lay all of the blame at the politicians doorstep for that.

Your selective quoting of my post ignores the fact that I clearly wasn't attributing all the blame to the politicians.

later12 · 25-01-2011 12:24PM

johngalway wrote: »

And he is correct. But it's unfair to lay all of the blame at the politicians doorstep for that. Try dealing with some civil servants when they think they're right, or the computer tells them they're right. Without a pol, or a solicitor, see how far you get. That is from personal experience, when the little person on the street is wrong, they're wrong, when they're right, they're still wrong.

I would much prefer a system that works for the people, instead of one that works for it's own interests.

This is true.

The problem, often is that when a member of the public goes into his local county council offices or whatever have you, he is, perhaps, met by bullheaded Mary who was on the tiles last night and really isn't that concerned about your grant application or your medical card or whatever it is.
Councillors and TDs on the other hand tend to be intimately familiar with the councils and their building and their staff, they know who to ask and they know personal phone numbers and they know how to persist and badger civil servants - or at least, the ones who actually matter, and that latter knowledge is important.

starbelgrade · 25-01-2011 12:24PM

hotmail.com wrote: »

Do TDs get medical cards for their constituents when they're not entitled to them?

Yes.

They also push through planning permissions & bump people up housing lists, among other things.

Riskymove · 25-01-2011 12:29PM

starbelgrade wrote: »

Yes.

no they dont, this would easily be revealed

in most cases they only do what people are not arsed to do themselves or as you suggest get something looked at or decided upon quicker than it would be

TDs cannot get people who are not entitled to a medical card allocated one

Riskymove · 25-01-2011 12:32PM

gandalf wrote: »

I don't feel that people will change? At the end of the day the Irish electorate seem particularly selfish. How else can you explain how Michael Lowry, Beverley Cooper Flynn and Jackie Healy Rae get re-elected.

A couple of things can be done immediately. Put a system in place where if a TD makes representations about local issues those issues are put to the back of the queue and both the TD and the party who requested the intervention are told this.

my point is that most people act in that way and want this way, as you say they are selfish

as long as that is the case, the things you suggest are never going to happen

A longer term solution is that of a total list system for National Representatives and the total reform of local government which I do believe should be one of the priorities of the incoming regime.

giving actual power to Local governemtn might result in more focus being given to local issues at that level

however, even in a list system I think people will still vote on a selfish basis...it simply becomes what can FF or FG etc do for me or my locality rather than Joe or Mary Bloggs TD

it is the constituency that forms the basis for the problem I think as opposed to the system

starbelgrade · 25-01-2011 12:37PM

Riskymove wrote: »

no they dont, this would easily be revealed

TDs cannot get people who are not entitled to a medical card allocated one

I know for a fact that they can & do.

I also personally know dozens of developers that had planning pushed through.

The fact that these things are not widely revealed or reported doesn't mean that they don't happen.

Riskymove · 25-01-2011 12:42PM

starbelgrade wrote: »

I know for a fact that they can & do.

I also personally know dozens of developers that had planning pushed through.

The fact that these things are not widely revealed or reported doesn't mean that they don't happen.

I was talking about the medical card comment...imo TDs cannot get you things you are not entitled to, although they can certainly try to make you feel like they can!!

of course planning can be pushed through (i.e. voted for by politicians) that is how the system works and there are many legacy issues remaining from that corrupt system

johngalway · 25-01-2011 12:48PM

starbelgrade wrote: »

Your selective quoting of my post ignores the fact that I clearly wasn't attributing all the blame to the politicians.

I was quoting Ned O'Keefe, not you.

starbelgrade · 25-01-2011 12:55PM

johngalway wrote: »

I was quoting Ned O'Keefe, not you.

Oops. My apologies.

Padraig Mor · 25-01-2011 01:17PM

hotmail.com wrote: »

Do TDs get medical cards for their constituents when they're not entitled to them?

Riskymove wrote: »

no they dont, this would easily be revealed

in most cases they only do what people are not arsed to do themselves or as you suggest get something looked at or decided upon quicker than it would be

TDs cannot get people who are not entitled to a medical card allocated one

starbelgrade wrote: »

I know for a fact that they can & do.

I also personally know dozens of developers that had planning pushed through.

The fact that these things are not widely revealed or reported doesn't mean that they don't happen.

My mother worked for the then Health Board many years ago (we're talking 1960s here). According to her, 'representation' by a politician regarding a constituent generally had the opposite effect to that intended - it made the staff more likely to investigate the application in depth to see if they actually met the criteria. i.e. "if they are eligible, they wouldn't need XXXX to have a word - let's have a close look at this one".

OTOH, a friend of mine from the Kerry South constituency claims that a certain well known gombeen TD from the area got a medical card for him when he was in college without him even applying (and he certainly wouldn't have met the criteria).......

later12 · 25-01-2011 01:29PM

Riskymove wrote: »

TDs cannot get you things you are not entitled to

Really? I hope you are not that naive.

I remember when I was off to university a local vote-hunter lamented what a pity it was that I was not about to attend UCD and assured me that if I changed my mind and went to UCD instead of going abroad, he could guarantee me a place on a hall of residence at UCD arising from professional contacts - and I know many people who did benefit from his promise which he duly followed through on post election.
I'm sure there are many younger voters from Tipperary reading this who might know exactly who I am talking about.

The point is that he wasn't even a TD at the time, nor is he now, he was just a councillor who had been nominated to sit on a board. If people really think that political corruption ended with Bertie Ahern or CJ Haughey or Ray Burke they are being extremely naive.

Riskymove · 25-01-2011 01:35PM

later10 wrote: »

Really? I hope you are not that naive.

I remember when I was off to university a local vote-hunter lamented what a pity it was that I was not about to attend UCD and assured me that if I changed my mind and went to UCD instead of going abroad, he could guarantee me a place on a hall of residence at UCD arising from professional contacts - and I know many people who did benefit from his promise which he duly followed through on post election.
I'm sure there are many younger voters from Tipperary reading this who might know exactly who I am talking about.

.

were you not entitled to a place on the hall of residence?

EDIT: to be clear I am talking about things like medical cards, a passport or whatever where there is a strict, law based criteria

IF UCD Board members allow strokes to happen on who gets into residence that is their business...but not likely illegal

you are either eligible for a medical card or not according to criteria...a TD nod and wink does not help

P. Breathnach · 25-01-2011 01:43PM

later10 wrote: »

...The problem, often is that when a member of the public goes into his local county council offices or whatever have you, he is, perhaps, met by bullheaded Mary who was on the tiles last night and really isn't that concerned about your grant application or your medical card or whatever it is.

I have encountered many difficult or unhelpful front-line staff in both the public and the private sector. It's generally not a problem to circumvent them; most often, all that you need do is ask for a supervisor or senior officer.

I know that many people do not think along such lines, but that is in part because they have been acculturated by our politicians to see the making of representations as the ordinary way of doing business.

Councillors and TDs on the other hand tend to be intimately familiar with the councils and their building and their staff, they know who to ask and they know personal phone numbers and they know how to persist and badger civil servants - or at least, the ones who actually matter, and that latter knowledge is important.

It is improper that public representatives meddle directly in the way public servants do their work. Knowing and using personal phone numbers involves an inappropriate working relationship. The work of any public servant should be directed by his or her immediate superior, not by a TD or MCC who has her direct line telephone number. If a public representative believes that intervention is necessary, the intervention should be done through set channels, the sort of channels that are available to me or to you.

Ned O'Keefe & All That Is Wrong With Irish Politics

Comments