Joe Higgins v. Jose Manuel Barroso. Who do you support?

Dionysus · 23-01-2011 02:24PM #1

Earlier last week Higgins launched an attack on the European Commission, specifically the current president of the European Commission, Barroso.

I agree with Higgins, but I also agree with Barroso. Higgins is correct: it is obscene to transfer the debts of private firms upon the shoulders of Irish people. Barroso is also correct: "the problems of Ireland were created by irresponsible financial behaviour of some Irish institutions and by the lack of supervision in the Irish market." 100% agree with that, although it should be noted that the ECB was supplying cheap credit throughout the Celtic Tiger years and thus fuelling the boom so it wasn't exactly white-as-white.

On the other hand, a large part of the reason why the ECB is "helping" Ireland is because German, British, French and other banks are the losers if we don't repay these private debts. At the very least, EU leaders from countries whose bank losses we are covering have a clash of interest. The high interest/profit which the ECB is charging Ireland reinforces this cynical interpretation of the ECB's role.

MrMatisse · 23-01-2011 02:27PM

The european banks regulated by other european governments lent recklessly also and we are bailing them out.

Go Joe

wolfpawnat · 23-01-2011 02:29PM

Europe is only interested in one thing here. Money. If they really wanted to help Ireland the interest rates would not be so high and we would not have as many conditions on the loans they and the IMF have given us!

Yes the Irish Government and the banks were wreckless, but as a Socialist Higgins is interested in the little people and not these banks.

Europe always had a certain control on the money in our banks but why is it only now that things went tits up they have comments to make?

AckwelFoley · 23-01-2011 02:32PM

a rock - plankton - gerry adams - that brown goo that sticks to a toilet - joe higgins - small animals - monkeys - us - your god.

So no, i don't support Joe

sensibleken · 23-01-2011 02:33PM

Much as I am loath to admit it, im on Joe's side on this one

My name is URL · 23-01-2011 03:19PM

I don't see how Higgins is wrong.. what he said is that billions of euro worth of debt is been placed on the shoulders of the Irish people to help alleviate the problems of a failed financial system. Barosso is correct in saying that Europe did not cause our financial institutions to act irresponsibly.. but hey, neither did the majority of Irish people.

Then Barosso says that it's important to know where the responsibility lies.. yeah, it lies with the same banks which are now a drain on the entire country. The ones which cannot be allowed to go under for the sake of the wider Europe. I'm struggling to see which part of the responsibity lies with me tbh

whoopdedoo · 23-01-2011 03:26PM

Barosso is in the wrong and he flippin well knows it!!

he's under no illusion where the money came from that was placing he noose around this countries neck!!

a PIG of a man!!!

Sanjuro · 23-01-2011 03:26PM

Well, the situation is a hell of a lot more complicated than 'Higgins thinks this, Baroso thinks this.' But if you were to sum up the whole mess into two sentences, both men are right. But they're not conflicting ideas. Baroso stated a fact, Higgins stated an opinion. And Higgins is right. It's incredibly unfair, and ethically wrong for the ECB and IMF to expect the Irish people to pay for the gamble of institutions.

Badgermonkey · 23-01-2011 03:39PM

Higgins the man is likeable, honest and principled. I've a lot of respect for him.

His political ideology however is nonsensical daydreaming.

Ali Babba · 23-01-2011 03:40PM

Whoever was involved should be made pay, especially those who borrowed recklessly in the first place, seize their assets and their transferred assets too, no exceptions. But to expect everyone else to pay for others mistakes is not acceptable in any shape of form. Fcuk the banks though, i've no sympathies for them, if they go broke so be it, there'll be fitter leaner banks in soon enough to replace them if they did go broke.

lugha · 23-01-2011 03:40PM

Sanjuro wrote: »

It's incredibly unfair, and ethically wrong for the ECB and IMF to expect the Irish people to pay for the gamble of institutions.

I think we should distinguish between the ECB and the IMF. It would seem the latter were more receptive to making the big boys share some pain.
And fair or unfair I don't know if there is much we can do about it given our dependency on the ECB.

big b · 23-01-2011 03:59PM

Irish mortgage defaulter - it's the banks' fault for lending me the money.

Irish state(-owned banks) - It's Europe's fault for lending us the money.

Responsibility for our actions ain't one of our strong points

Son Of A Vidic · 23-01-2011 04:02PM

My name is URL wrote: »

Barosso is correct in saying that Europe did not cause our financial institutions to act irresponsibly.. but hey, neither did the majority of Irish people.

But of course Barrosso conveniently ignores the reckless lending by the big German and French banks, to the incompetent Irish banks which caused this. He must at all times protect these big boys and indeed he has achieved this. If the gobshytes running the Irish banks weren't getting the credit from the European big boys, then we wouldn't be paying for all their 'risks' today.

Now Ireland is a relatively immature economy when compared to the likes of Germany and France. So when the Irish banks were out of control, why didn't our european 'partners' say "Hey lads, you need to calm down and reign it in a bit." Because now they own us, or is this what they wanted? The loss of national sovereignty and a nations financial enslavement, without a shot being fired. Clever bast@rds they are.

Dyr · 23-01-2011 04:04PM

snyper wrote: »

a rock - plankton - gerry adams - that brown goo that sticks to a toilet - joe higgins - small animals - monkeys - us - your god.

So no, i don't support Joe

culchies who vote Fianna Fail - a rock - plankton - gerry adams - that brown goo that sticks to a toilet - joe higgins - small animals - monkeys - us - your god Is the correct order

Stinicker · 23-01-2011 04:11PM

I have good respect for Joe Higgins, he often made that crook Bertie Ahern squirm in the Dail and was one of the few people in there at the time to stick it to him. His social policies however..... :rolleyes:

Zebra3 · 23-01-2011 04:15PM

big b wrote: »

Irish mortgage defaulter - it's the banks' fault for lending me the money.

Irish state(-owned banks) - It's Europe's fault for lending us the money.
Responsibility for our actions ain't one of our strong points

Except I'm not responsible and therefore should not be paying for f*ck ups by banks. Cop yourself on. :rolleyes:

Higgins is 100% correct and Barroso is simply doing a Pilate.

The EU is loaning us money at something like 6% that they are getting at 3%.

Friends like that.... :mad:

FlutterinBantam · 23-01-2011 04:17PM

Higgins is an idiot who is the epitome of a single issue campaigner.

In Higgins' team there is only one player.. the 'working man'.

He conveniently forgets /ignores/ brushes over the fact that society is far more complicated than the straight line scenario he is so trenchant in promulgating.

He totally ignores the fact that for there to be a 'working man' there has to be someone to work for, something to produce, profit to be made and an economy to support.

His rhetoric is pervasive till you drill down into his stupid and foolish ideals and I'm sure there are plenty of uninformed idiots out there who will think he is the saviour this country needs.

God help us!!

panda100 · 23-01-2011 04:17PM

Stinicker wrote: »

I have good respect for Joe Higgins, he often made that crook Bertie Ahern squirm in the Dail and was one of the few people in there at the time to stick it to him. His social policies however.....

........Are what this country needs?

I am 100% on Joe's side. I really don't like the neoliberal agenda of the European Union. Its corrupt, greedy and puts money above all else.

At least Joe is an elected politician, which can't be said for Barrosso.

big b · 23-01-2011 04:32PM

Zebra3 wrote: »

Except I'm not responsible and therefore should not be paying for f*ck ups by banks. Cop yourself on. :rolleyes:

Higgins is 100% correct and Barroso is simply doing a Pilate.

The EU is loaning us money at something like 6% that they are getting at 3%.

Friends like that.... :mad:

Yeah, and I'm not responsible for the baby boom, but my taxes still pay child allowance. I didn't use the health service, but my taxes go there too. I didn't avail of section 23 or 50 tax allowances, but I pay for them too, and so on....

Cop yourself on.

whoopdedoo · 23-01-2011 04:39PM

panda100 wrote: »

........Are what this country needs?

I am 100% on Joe's side. I really don't like the neoliberal agenda of the European Union. Its corrupt, greedy and puts money above all else.

At least Joe is an elected politician, which can't be said for Barrosso.

well said!!

I love watching Nigel Farage ripping into him and van rumpuy!

Badgermonkey · 23-01-2011 04:45PM

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Higgins is an idiot who is the epitome of a single issue campaigner.

In Higgins' team there is only one player.. the 'working man'.

He conveniently forgets /ignores/ brushes over the fact that society is far more complicated than the straight line scenario he is so trenchant in promulgating.

He totally ignores the fact that for there to be a 'working man' there has to be someone to work for, something to produce, profit to be made and an economy to support.

His rhetoric is pervasive till you drill down into his stupid and foolish ideals and I'm sure there are plenty of uninformed idiots out there who will think he is the saviour this country needs.

God help us!!

You forgot Boyd Barrett.

I think they're genuine, principled, well intentioned and deluded, though I wouldn't label them idiots.

K-9 · 23-01-2011 04:59PM

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

But of course Barrosso conveniently ignores the reckless lending by the big German and French banks, to the incompetent Irish banks which caused this. He must at all times protect these big boys and indeed he has achieved this. If the gobshytes running the Irish banks weren't getting the credit from the European big boys, then we wouldn't be paying for all their 'risks' today.

Now Ireland is a relatively immature economy when compared to the likes of Germany and France. So when the Irish banks were out of control, why didn't our european 'partners' say "Hey lads, you need to calm down and reign it in a bit." Because now they own us, or is this what they wanted? The loss of national sovereignty and a nations financial enslavement, without a shot being fired. Clever bast@rds they are.

True about the French and German banks, thing is, regulation of our own banks is Irelands business and we didn't do it properly. Banks lend money to make profits, that is what they do. It is up to each country to regulate its own banks.

French and German banks shouldn't have lent the likes of Anglo the billions they did but they had a certain reliance and trust that we had a proper banking system which is Irelands business.

If the situation was reversed and we were bailing out Germany, I wouldn't expect Irish banks to take the hit for lack of regulation in Germany.

Unpossible · 23-01-2011 05:14PM

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

So when the Irish banks were out of control, why didn't our european 'partners' say "Hey lads, you need to calm down and reign it in a bit."

Charlie McCreevy was warned by the other finance ministers of europe back in 2001/2002 that his policies were going to create a construction bubble, not only did he scoff at them, but then tried to go around telling the rest of europe how they should do things our way.

The reason we are getting our current loan at such a high rate is to make it a deterrent to others. If it was an easy loan then everyone in trouble would just latch onto it instead of taking the necessary pain.

FlutterinBantam · 23-01-2011 05:18PM

Badgermonkey wrote: »

You forgot Boyd Barrett.

I think they're genuine, principled, well intentioned and deluded, though I wouldn't label them idiots.

You are right, I was wrong there.

Deluded is the word I would use from now on.

squod · 23-01-2011 05:21PM

Unpossible wrote: »

The reason we are getting our current loan at such a high rate is to make it a deterrent to others.

The reason we are getting our current loan at such a high rate is because they can. You'd hardly expect these criminals to perpetrate such a high value fraud without making a few bob do you?

Unpossible · 23-01-2011 05:30PM

squod wrote: »

The reason we are getting our current loan at such a high rate is because they can. You'd hardly expect these criminals to perpetrate such a high value fraud without making a few bob do you?

Ok, lets do it your way, say 3% ? Now spain, portugal and a bunch of others have looked at that 3% and then at the rates they are being offered from the markets, which do you think they will choose? Bonus question: where will the money come from?

Personally when all of this crisis is over I think all countries should be borrowing at a flat EU rate. This could be done by the ECB providing funds to countries within the EU and the rate being set by what the ECB can get on the open market.

squod · 23-01-2011 05:37PM

We've 80 billion euro in the bank in the form of a pension reserve fund. If we weren't volunteering to pay back the debts of gamblers and career criminlas the figure we'd need to borrow could be easily afforded by dipping into this fund (as we are already doing).

Let me quote Mr Rehn's admirably frank reminder: "We need to recall that sovereign debt has not been at the origin of the crisis. Rather, private debt has become public debt. The financial sector has misallocated resources in the economy and then stopped working."

The bank bailout was meant to be a temporary stop gap to allow banks renegotiate their debts, not provide a bottomless pit of cash at the expense of the taxpayer.

Unpossible · 23-01-2011 05:49PM

squod wrote: »

We've 80 billion euro in the bank in the form of a pension reserve fund. If we weren't volunteering to pay back the debts of gamblers and career criminlas the figure we'd need to borrow could be easily afforded by dipping into this fund (as we are already doing).
The bank bailout was meant to be a temporary stop gap to allow banks renegotiate their debts, not provide a bottomless pit of cash at the expense of the taxpayer.

Yep

and I think we would have been better off with Richard Bruton as Finance minister when this crisis started, unfortunatly FF have managed to scupper any chance we had of getting out of this mess quickly. Just make sure everyone remembers this in 4/8/12 years time when FF are back trying to worm their way into power.

squod · 23-01-2011 06:13PM

I take Sen. Shane Ross' viewpoint on all of this. Crony-ism was/is such a factor in Irish politics & civil service.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uH9mpUn_VHs

AskMyChocolate · 23-01-2011 06:14PM

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Higgins is an idiot who is the epitome of a single issue campaigner.

In Higgins' team there is only one player.. the 'working man'.

He conveniently forgets /ignores/ brushes over the fact that society is far more complicated than the straight line scenario he is so trenchant in promulgating.

He totally ignores the fact that for there to be a 'working man' there has to be someone to work for, something to produce, profit to be made and an economy to support.

His rhetoric is pervasive till you drill down into his stupid and foolish ideals and I'm sure there are plenty of uninformed idiots out there who will think he is the saviour this country needs.

God help us!!

And no doubt you consider the socialists running Norway and the "uninformed idiots" running Statoil to be far inferior to your right wing conservative mates in Anglo/AIB/BoI?

Give me an uninformed person over a smug valueless fool incapable of rational thought any day of the week.

God help us indeed!

FlutterinBantam · 23-01-2011 06:37PM

AskMyChocolate wrote: »

And no doubt you consider the socialists running Norway and the "uninformed idiots" running Statoil to be far inferior to your right wing conservative mates in Anglo/AIB/BoI?

Give me an uninformed person over a smug valueless fool incapable of rational thought any day of the week.

God help us indeed!

You might enlighten us as to what the point of that post is pal, in the context of this thread.

Joe Higgins v. Jose Manuel Barroso. Who do you support?

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