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Fianna Fáil Leadership Challenge Underway

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Comments

  • #302
    Bill2673
    Closed Accounts Posts: 749 ✭✭✭Bill2673


    Biggins wrote: »
    Its a Fianna Fail = government in power event.
    Its relates to those that are running our lives, our country and the integrity of those that is running it.
    Who cares?
    You mean besides the rest of the EU looking on, the IMF wanting to keep an eye on the stability of European countries and its banks, then there is the stock markets, the bond holders that are looking for honesty and stability before they up their rates for fearing that Ireland will default besides been seen to be run by people that couldn't lay straight in bed.

    (...And if they up their rates because of 'fears', that means the public (you!) will end up paying more in your pay packet and further possible cuts to services too)

    The stock market won't bat an eyelid if the Fianna Fail hold a leadership battle and i very much doubt that the bond markets will.

    Investors look at policy not personalities, and policy clearly won't change if Fianna Fail changes its leadership for the last few weeks of its incumbency. There is absolutely no instability in macroeconomic policy terms from changing leader of Fianna Fail, and indeed very little when we move from FF to FG and/or Labour.

    Secondly, the bond markets have moved on from ireland, there has barely been any trading in irish bonds in recent months.

    I like your dramatic YOU!, but at this point our interest payments have been set by the IMF; the bond market will have ZERO! impact into Irish govt interest payments in the next two years.


  • #303
    jmayo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,226 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    dfbemt wrote: »
    'To the best of my ability' is another favourite

    Doesn't say much about his ability does it ?:rolleyes:
    LostinKildare wrote: »
    And the all-time, all-purpose favourite: "I don't accept that."

    No but we do have to accept it. :mad:
    Sierra Oscar wrote: »
    Yep, what everyone sort of was expecting . . . but there we have it out in the open.

    Cowen is finished if this is factual.

    No he is not, at this stage I recon e will stay until the election unless they find some muppet willing to take the job for a few months.
    Whoever leads ff into this eleciton is brown bread in political terms and none of the front runners want that.

    The only thing that might happen is one of the fornt runners may fear that after election what is left of ff party will go for someone that was never in the cabinet as they try and distance themselves from all those that were in cabinet from 1997 to 2011.
    Thus hannafin may fancy her chances, I think martin is waiting and he will get elected in cork on the sympathy vote.
    goat2 wrote: »
    why do people have to lie, did they not know, it is very easy to be caught out when telling lies

    It is mandatory in ff.
    Trotter wrote: »
    One mans word against the other.. We need to realise that FF will not move against him, and he is going nowhere.

    The Greens only want their legislation rammed through.. If the government holds, they've a small chance.. So they won't budge either.

    No ethics, no moral fibre, no doing what is right for our nation..

    Normal service resumes.. Move along, nothing to see here.. you peasant types.

    Exactly the greens lost their morals and spine when they backed bertie.
    They sold their souls to the devil for a few bicycle lanes and carbon taxes.
    ArtSmart wrote: »
    thing is, i'm getting a bad feeling that if anglo was given a few billion earlier on (07), it may have held back the waters until a new damn was built. but that's another story.

    Anglo was in so deep a few billion would never have fixed it.
    I remember hearing someone talk on radio about their loan book back in 2007 and that day I knew the bank was fecked.
    They reckoned the bank had over 50 to 60 billion in property related loans and anyone with half a brain knew we were in a property bubble so it was abvious what was going to happen.
    Of course I was labelled a cycnical paranoid eejit with talk like that. :rolleyes:
    the groutch wrote: »
    unfortunately it was abolished in a Referendum and the contsitution amendment prevents it ever being re-introduced

    Well he could accidently be shot in the back of an armoured car, cuascescu style.
    I don't want him shot, I want him water boarded until he squeals like a pig about all the dirty little secrets and lets us know all the wheres and whos.
    I think we all know the "whys" at this stage.

    I am not allowed discuss …



  • #304
    Bill2673
    Closed Accounts Posts: 749 ✭✭✭Bill2673


    Brilliant, another expert in hindsight.


  • #305
    SeaFields
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,551 ✭✭✭SeaFields


    Very objective debate about to start on Pat Kenny now - three FF TD's talking about Cowen.


  • #306
    patmac
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,595 ✭✭✭patmac


    Well done Fianna Fail couldn't organise a decent heave, Cowan hanging on for whatever reasons, no one with the balls to go against him.
    It's amazing how badly they have cocked things up. If Bertie was the 'Teflon Taoiseach' Cowan must be 'my nan's frying pan with all the gristle stuck on it Taoiseach'.


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  • #307
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Bill2673 wrote: »
    The stock market won't bat an eyelid if the Fianna Fail hold a leadership battle and i very much doubt that the bond markets will.

    Investors look at policy not personalities, and policy clearly won't change if Fianna Fail changes its leadership for the last few weeks of its incumbency. There is absolutely no instability in macroeconomic policy terms from changing leader of Fianna Fail, and indeed very little when we move from FF to FG and/or Labour.

    Secondly, the bond markets have moved on from ireland, there has barely been any trading in irish bonds in recent months.

    I like your dramatic YOU!, but at this point our interest payments have been set by the IMF; the bond market will have ZERO! impact into Irish govt interest payments in the next two years.

    Well in the past we (and other countries) have seen for themselves how volatile the stock markets are alone. Its all about money and if there is anything, absolutely anything that might effect their revenue invested, by heavens, every piece of news and ongoing events makes a difference to them (and we haven't even gotten to other companies residing or looking to come in, are seeing the whole mess).
    As for the rates of the massive current loans that we have now start to take from European bodies be it the big billions of loans or any future issue of bonds, they too are open to upping depending on the stability of any government country that they are emanating from.
    Investors don't look at policy - they look at stability and forecasts.

    You earlier asked "who cares?" I gave just one financial banking direction.
    There are others if you bother to look.
    Frankly, I care as do other members of the public. We want to see our country return back to a semblance of calm with a government that at least for one month in the year, is not up to their necks in some strange goings on.


  • #308
    Bill2673
    Closed Accounts Posts: 749 ✭✭✭Bill2673


    Biggins wrote: »
    Well in the past we (and other countries) have seen for themselves how volatile the stock markets are alone. Its all about money and if there is anything, absolutely anything that might effect their revenue invested, by heavens, every piece of news and ongoing events makes a difference to them.
    As for the rates of the massive current loans that we have now start to take from European bodies be it the big billions of loans or any future issue of bonds, they too are open to upping depending on the stability of any government country that they are emanating from.
    Investors don't look at policy - they look at stability and forecasts.

    You earlier asked who cares I gave just one financial banking direction.
    There are others if you bother to look.
    Frankly, I care as too other members of the public. We want to see our country return back to a sembalance of calm with a government that at least for one month in the year, is not up to their necks in some strange goings on.


    As I said, our sovereign interest rates are set in stone for the next two years.

    The stock markets don't give a hoot who leads Fianna Fail.

    As for who cares, fair enough you care.

    I might have asked, what difference does it make. Look the facts are that they are rearranging the deck chair to get a better election results; its got nada to with policy. Post election they will be in opposition, so then it will still be nada to do with policy.


  • #309
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Bill2673 wrote: »
    ...Post election they will be in opposition, so then it will still be nada to do with policy.
    Indeed, "post election" = the future. In the meantime right now is what people are looking at and the situation existing today and how it will effect them possibly tomorrow.
    You say "it will still be nada to do with policy" yet it was you that brought up policy a few minutes ago.
    Which is it? "Policy" is important or it isn't?


  • #310
    Bill2673
    Closed Accounts Posts: 749 ✭✭✭Bill2673


    Biggins wrote: »
    Indeed, "post election" = the future. In the meantime right now is what people are looking at and the situation existing today and how it will effect them possibly tomorrow.
    You say "it will still be nada to do with policy" yet it was you that brought up policy a few minutes ago.
    Which is it? "Policy" is important or it isn't?

    Come on now, i said both pre election and post election it is nothing to do with policy, i think that was clear enough from what I wrote. Thats my opinion, but i doubt anyone would think otherwise.


  • #311
    jmayo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,226 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    Bill2673 wrote: »
    Brilliant, another expert in hindsight.

    Actually sunshine check out my very first post on boards in Jan 2007 where I lamented fact we were losing real industry only to be replaced by bubble based construction.

    http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055033806&page=4

    So less of the sh**e about hindsight.
    Maybe you voted for bertie and his bubble economic policies, but some of us never did.

    I am not allowed discuss …



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  • #312
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Bill2673 wrote: »
    Come on now, i said both pre election and post election it is nothing to do with policy, i think that was clear enough from what I wrote. Thats my opinion, but i doubt anyone would think otherwise.
    Well we won't fall out over semantics or other minor stuff.
    At the end of the day, we are both discussing the matter so it seems for a start that we both care whats going on, along with other readers here and the rest of those picking up a paper this morning and/or those deliberately tuning their ear towards their radio and tv about this topic.


  • #313
    Bill2673
    Closed Accounts Posts: 749 ✭✭✭Bill2673


    jmayo wrote: »
    Actually sunshine check out my very first post on boards in Jan 2007 where I lamented fact we were losing real industry only to be replaced by bubble based construction.

    http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055033806&page=4

    So less of the sh**e about hindsight.
    Maybe you voted for bertie and his bubble economic policies, but some of us never did.


    Well done. I stand corrected.

    Of course, I'm a massive Bertie man. We meet every Tuesday for a picnic in the botanic gardens. Jaysus.


  • #314
    the groutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,096 ✭✭✭✭the groutch


    Bill2673 wrote: »
    Of course, I'm a massive Bertie man. We meet every Tuesday for a picnic in the botanic gardens. Jaysus.

    and then a trip to the national stud? ;)


  • #315
    jmayo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,226 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    Bill2673 wrote: »
    Well done. I stand corrected.

    You see now not everyone was a hindsight merchant and people claiming I am one really gets on my goat.
    Bill2673 wrote: »
    Of course, I'm a massive Bertie man. We meet every Tuesday for a picnic in the botanic gardens. Jaysus.

    Well alot of the ones claiming we were wise in hindsight did indeed vote for bertie.

    Speaking of meeting politicans, where were you in July 2008, north Wicklow perhaps ? :D

    I am not allowed discuss …



  • #316
    Bill2673
    Closed Accounts Posts: 749 ✭✭✭Bill2673


    jmayo wrote: »
    Actually sunshine check out my very first post on boards in Jan 2007 where I lamented fact we were losing real industry only to be replaced by bubble based construction.

    http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055033806&page=4

    So less of the sh**e about hindsight.
    Maybe you voted for bertie and his bubble economic policies, but some of us never did.


    Regarding your final point (that charitable comment on my political views) - i do actually live in Bertie's constituency....and i did actually campaign on behalf of a candidate at the last (2007) election, though it wasn't Bertie or another FF person. Anyway. The interesting thing for me was that of all the doors I knocked on, I met a lot of Mary Lou people, a good few P Mckenna people, a good few Tony Gregory people....but onle ONE woman said to me, sorry can't help you I'm voting Bertie.....so i was quite amazed when he topped the poll the way he did. Nobody admits to voting Fianna Fail!!!!


  • #317
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    ArtSmart wrote: »
    thing is, i'm getting a bad feeling that if anglo was given a few billion earlier on (07), it may have held back the waters until a new damn was built. but that's another story.
    They were bust to the tune of 50 billion plus, so a few billion in 2007 would have made no difference at all.


  • #318
    bmaxi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,859 ✭✭✭bmaxi


    Barname wrote: »
    I think its time the Gardai made their move.

    Stand up Commissioner, show some leadership.

    You jest of course, the only place you'll find a greater proportion of FF hacks than the Galway tent, is among the higher echelons of AGS.
    Is there even a functioning Commissioner at the moment? I thought Murphy took the pension and ran as well.


  • #319
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 45,402 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Panrich wrote: »
    It's not the countries fault that FF are having a leadership heave so I can't see how you credit FF in your post at the expense of the rest of us.
    This heave is based on the latest "scandal" involving Cowen which is based on his actions, inactions, percieved or otherwise.
    bmaxi wrote: »
    If this resignation materialises, how, with two leaders forced out under a cloud, in the space of three years, could FF possibly present themselves to the electorate as an acceptable government.
    But we had a situation where the Greens stood by his waffle but his own party seemingly weren't prepared to tolerate it?
    bmaxi wrote: »
    Hopefully, the years of lies, theft and corruption are coming to an end
    Do you still believe in Santa?
    Biggins wrote: »
    All sounds familiar!

    ...Like Haughty at the end.

    ...Like Bertie at the end.

    Next up ladies and gentlemen...
    At least Albert went before the big push!
    godtabh wrote: »
    Lenihan i'd say has a grave yard full of skeletons in is closet. I'm not sure how much the others have but they have them.

    If you make corruption easy people will be corrupt.

    The only way that FF could survive in the future is do a New Labour job on it but I dont there is any one in the party to do it.
    Someone I know always said that anyone who served with CJ shouldn't be allowed into any government.
    I believe the same applies to Bertie and Cowen!
    Barname wrote: »
    Cowen should be advised that the people of this nation will hold him accountable for his incompetence.
    Have you not realised that as a member of FF he doesn't care what the nation thinks?
    goat2 wrote: »
    he is a foolish man to stay in this job, if i were part of his family i would have spent the last few months begging him to step down, on a human level this must be having an auful effect on his health, that kind of pressure is a killer, it is hard to keep up the front that all is ok, there must be times he is hurt by comments, i do really feel sorry for the man
    Yes but then he would be spending more time at home! :D
    jmayo wrote: »
    Bingo narrative came up !!!
    Do I win a prize ?
    Nope. We've all lost!
    GSF wrote: »
    Its all about the party, the party, the party. screw the country.
    Is this revulsion or are you doing the FF chant?
    SeaFields wrote: »
    Green Party Statement this evening on the matter



    I wonder will they walk?!
    ROFL. The greens won't walk! They are too... green!
    lucozader wrote: »
    grassy knoll time
    Shall we hold a lottery to decide the lucky winner who goes forward to claim the prize? :D

    Help Keep Boards Alive. Support us by going ad free today. See here: https://subscriptions.boards.ie/ .



  • #320
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    Bill2673 wrote: »
    The stock market won't bat an eyelid if the Fianna Fail hold a leadership battle and i very much doubt that the bond markets will.

    Investors look at policy not personalities, and policy clearly won't change if Fianna Fail changes its leadership for the last few weeks of its incumbency. There is absolutely no instability in macroeconomic policy terms from changing leader of Fianna Fail, and indeed very little when we move from FF to FG and/or Labour.

    Secondly, the bond markets have moved on from ireland, there has barely been any trading in irish bonds in recent months.

    I like your dramatic YOU!, but at this point our interest payments have been set by the IMF; the bond market will have ZERO! impact into Irish govt interest payments in the next two years.
    Your're right that there won't be much difference when Cowen goes. But what we are looking at here is akin to a murder investigation - the victim will still be dead but at least we will know who the gombeens repsonsible actually were.


  • #321
    Bill2673
    Closed Accounts Posts: 749 ✭✭✭Bill2673


    Interesting question, how could the financial mess have been avoided.

    Once the property market turned, there was no way anglo could have been saved.....unless...maybe a foreign bank had bought it.

    But its an interesting question, how could the financial mess have been avoided. The answer presumably lies in the financial regulator imposing greater constraints on bank lending in years 2002 to 2006.

    For example, if you can't get a 90% mortgage on 4 times your salary, then you can't pay over the odds for your house.


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  • #322
    gandalf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,457 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    So based on Michael Somers latest interview with PK this morning.

    He doesn't recall being contacted - That language normally indicates that there is something to hide. I think we all can have a good stab at what that is.

    He had to take legal advice because of the pressure he was coming under. - Surely this cannot be for the representations from Anglo Irish Bank in the form of Seanie F and David Drumm. Sounds like someone in authority was putting him under pressure.

    He wanted the instructions in writing from the MoF to put additional funds in Anglo - Again pointing to the fact he was being put under direct or indirect pressure from someone in authority in Government.

    At this stage it is obvious that despite his protestations Cowen was involved in putting undue pressure on the NTMA either directly or indirectly. Eamon O'Cuiv said this morning that any cabinet minister who had doubts about Cowens honesty should stand down, well that time has come. I somehow doubt they will but I think we should all remember who they are if they do stand by Cowen.

    As for the Greens, at this stage what do they need to pull the plug. They have dithered and procrastinated to their hearts content but if they want to salvage any type of honour from this whole mess they need to do the right thing and walk away immediately.

    And as an aside why is this important to me personally. As someone whose career has been adversely effected over the last couple of years along with my earnings I want to see that those responsible for this mess are held to account in every way possible. For the record as well I have never voted for Fianna Fail in the two decades that I have had the rights as a voting citizen.


  • #323
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Bill2673 wrote: »
    Interesting question, how could the financial mess have been avoided.

    Once the property market turned, there was no way anglo could have been saved.....unless...maybe a foreign bank had bought it.

    But its an interesting question, how could the financial mess have been avoided. The answer presumably lies in the financial regulator imposing greater constraints on bank lending in years 2002 to 2006.

    For example, if you can't get a 90% mortgage on 4 times your salary, then you can't pay over the odds for your house.
    Hear what your saying but thats a whole massive topic for another thread.


  • #324
    Het-Field
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,350 ✭✭✭Het-Field


    Bill2673 wrote: »
    Interesting question, how could the financial mess have been avoided.

    Once the property market turned, there was no way anglo could have been saved.....unless...maybe a foreign bank had bought it.

    But its an interesting question, how could the financial mess have been avoided. The answer presumably lies in the financial regulator imposing greater constraints on bank lending in years 2002 to 2006.

    For example, if you can't get a 90% mortgage on 4 times your salary, then you can't pay over the odds for your house.

    The crisis could have been avoided had FF not utilised the property market as a cash cow to proffer the idea that they were a "socialist" party. Public expenditure went through the roof in 2004 when FF decided that they didnt like the result of the Local and European Elections of the same year. This was funded by increased revenue from unsustainable windfall taxes such as VAT, Stamp Duty and Capital Gains Tax. If that had been held in "escrow", then the Irish nation would have stood a chance.

    Anglo was unsavable. However, given the link between government policy and banking behaviour between 2004-2007, it is clear that there was a level of cahoots going on. The situation could have been saved by virtue of fiscal rectitude, and aversion to polulist politics, the refusal to create a moral hazard for the Banks, and the proffering of sensible and sustainable policy by the Government.


  • #325
    Bill2673
    Closed Accounts Posts: 749 ✭✭✭Bill2673


    Biggins wrote: »
    Hear what your saying but thats a whole massive topic for another thread.

    agreed.


  • #326
    56lcd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 82 ✭✭56lcd


    Obviously fianna fail should be categorized as an illict organisation, all known members of fianna fail should be rounded up Salem witch trial style, given a fair Nuremberg type trial and a decent public hanging.
    All assets of known fianna failers should be siezed by CAB.
    Fianna fail voters should be rounded up and put internment camps and be made wear a badge of shame.

    Electrodes should be permenantly attached to the scrotums of seanie,fingers,neary,drumm and the golden circle .... with variable voltage passing through.

    What part did Sean Quinn's gambling play in the downfall of our beloved country? ..... time for CAB to move in.


  • #327
    Fitzerb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 619 ✭✭✭Fitzerb


    Bill2673 wrote: »
    Interesting question, how could the financial mess have been avoided.

    Once the property market turned, there was no way anglo could have been saved.....unless...maybe a foreign bank had bought it.

    But its an interesting question, how could the financial mess have been avoided. The answer presumably lies in the financial regulator imposing greater constraints on bank lending in years 2002 to 2006.

    For example, if you can't get a 90% mortgage on 4 times your salary, then you can't pay over the odds for your house.


    While is thread is for FF bashing only l give my quick opinion on what
    could have been done. Applications to rezone land should have been
    managed and only agreed when earlier successful applications had the housing developments finished, sold and the local Council had taken control of
    the developed housing estates. This would have slowed down the
    overheated property market. The down side is that house prices would
    have remained high. But the overall exposure to risk of meltdown would
    have been far smaller for us all.


  • #328
    jmayo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,226 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    Bill2673 wrote: »
    Regarding your final point (that charitable comment on my political views) - i do actually live in Bertie's constituency....and i did actually campaign on behalf of a candidate at the last (2007) election, though it wasn't Bertie or another FF person. Anyway. The interesting thing for me was that of all the doors I knocked on, I met a lot of Mary Lou people, a good few P Mckenna people, a good few Tony Gregory people....but onle ONE woman said to me, sorry can't help you I'm voting Bertie.....so i was quite amazed when he topped the poll the way he did. Nobody admits to voting Fianna Fail!!!!

    It will be even harder now to find anyone admitting to voting for the gutter snipes.
    Fitzerb wrote: »

    While is thread is for FF bashing only l give my quick opinion on what
    could have been done. Applications to rezone land should have been
    managed and only agreed when earlier successful applications had the housing developments finished, sold and the local Council had taken control of
    the developed housing estates. This would have slowed down the
    overheated property market. The down side is that house prices would
    have remained high. But the overall exposure to risk of meltdown would
    have been far smaller for us all.

    Oh I can see where this is going. :)
    It is all the local councils fault. :rolleyes:

    Except if the government (all governments post 1977) actually allowed local councils raise money through residential rates for example, etc then they would not quickly jump at planning in order to riase money.
    Saying that it appears sometimes most local councillors are involved in construciton or house selling business.

    Anyway the government, (you know the thing ff were the primary part of) could have taken huge amount of steam out of the market.
    They could have ended section 23s/50s way back rather than sit on their hands for 2 or 3 years.
    Then they could have brought in taxes to prevent flipping and short term speculation, they could have increased taxes on investors which would have helped remove investors from the market who were competing with FTBs who actually were in more need of housing.
    And all of this would be before they got the central bank/IFSRA to stop the banks issuing 100% 50 year mortgage sand the like.

    So you see they could have cooled the market rather than cheerled as one bertie happily did.

    BTW can you please change your MS Word to use some other font before you psot into boards.ie ?

    I am not allowed discuss …



  • #329
    Bill2673
    Closed Accounts Posts: 749 ✭✭✭Bill2673


    jmayo wrote: »
    BTW can you please change your MS Word to use some other font before you psot into boards.ie ?


    yeah Fitzerb....and get a spell check installed while your at it....


  • #330
    Sierra Oscar
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,808 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    For what its worth (which is not very much), Martin Mansergh has issued a statement supporting Cowen's leadership.


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  • #331
    jmayo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,226 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    Bill2673 wrote: »
    yeah Fitzerb....and get a spell check installed while your at it....

    Touché.
    Well spotted there.
    Do you know what prize you have won ?
    A days golfing with biffo and friends courtesy of the taxpayers.

    BTW have you ever tried to quote Fitzerb's posts, if you have then you will know what I was talking about.

    I am not allowed discuss …



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