Its official : public sector pay per hour is 49% higher than private sector

RobbieTheRobber · 07-01-2011 03:32PM

fliball123 wrote: »

It depends on which state? also the population per hospital in the States is a lot higher than Ireland

Ill let you pick the best five states, and then compare the health services available to non privately insured patients as compared to non insured patients here!

fliball123 · 07-01-2011 03:37PM

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Ill let you pick the best five states, and then compare the health services available to non privately insured patients as compared to non insured patients here!

well have a look at this we have more hospital beds per capita than the states..We are 27 out of all countries. the states are down in 43 spot. (2009)
http://www.globalhealthfacts.org/topic.jsp?i=78

Anyway whats your point that its acceptable to 500+ patients on trollies?

RobbieTheRobber · 07-01-2011 03:40PM

fliball123 wrote: »

well have a look at this we have more hospital beds per capita than the states..We are 27 out of all countries. the states are down in 43 spot. (2009)
http://www.globalhealthfacts.org/topic.jsp?i=78

Anyway whats your point that its acceptable to 500+ patients on trollies?

No my point was can you compare the health care given to non insured people in the top fives states in the USA for care for such people against the health care given to non insured patients in this country, please?

RobbieTheRobber · 07-01-2011 03:41PM

fliball123 wrote: »

Anyway whats your point that its acceptable to 500+ patients on trollies?

Can you place that 500 patients on trollies in the context of other countries health care provisions?

500 as a number and no context doesnt help anyone!

fliball123 · 07-01-2011 03:49PM

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

No my point was can you compare the health care given to non insured people in the top fives states in the USA for care for such people against the health care given to non insured patients in this country, please?

And my point is that its unacceptable to have 500 people lying on trollies in hospital...I have given you a stat that we have more beds per capita than the states ...and why are not comparing to EU countries like Scandanavia or the likes or the UK

Heres another little stat for you compare income tax here between the states and Ireland

http://www.creditloan.com/infographics/international-tax-rate-comparison/

Ireland 20 - 41
states 15 -35

So once again why are you not comparing like for like

We have more beds per capita than the states we pay more income tax than they do.

some of these supposed taxes are supposed to be used for healthcare, hospitals and the likes

RobbieTheRobber · 07-01-2011 03:51PM

fliball123 wrote: »

And my point is that its unacceptable to have 500 people lying on trollies in hospital...I have given you a stat that we have more beds per capita than the states ...and why are not comparing to EU countries like Scandanavia or the likes or the UK

Heres another little stat for you compare income tax here between the states and Ireland

http://www.creditloan.com/infographics/international-tax-rate-comparison/

Ireland 20 - 41
states 15 -35

So once again why are you not comparing like for like

We have more beds per capita than the states we pay more income tax than they do.

some of these supposed taxes are supposed to be used for healthcare, hospitals and the likes

Is america a 1st world country?

What is norway or finlands average tax rate compared to ireland?

What is Norway or Finlands health spend on average per head of capita compared to irelands?

fliball123 · 07-01-2011 03:53PM

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Can you place that 500 patients on trollies in the context of other countries health care provisions?

500 as a number and no context doesnt help anyone!

What fcuking context would you like...are you for real how can you even begin to defend this..I have given you now two stats with an unrealistic comparison of the u.s where we have more beds per capita and we pay more income tax and before we get to where the tax money goes (the black hole that is the banks and p.s pay and the dole) we are not getting any value for our taxes

RobbieTheRobber · 07-01-2011 03:56PM

fliball123 wrote: »

What fcuking context would you like...are you for real how can you even begin to defend this..I have given you now two stats with an unrealistic comparison of the u.s where we have more beds per capita and we pay more income tax and before we get to where the tax money goes (the black hole that is the banks and p.s pay and the dole) we are not getting any value for our taxes

That is a wild assumption I assume you have valid facts and evidence to back up your incorrect claims?

fliball123 · 07-01-2011 03:57PM

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Is america a 1st world country?

What is norway or finlands average tax rate compared to ireland?

What is Norway or Finlands health spend on average per head of capita compared to irelands?

As I said it depends on the state in America but over all yes it is 1st world - thats just opinion

Not sure whta Norway is but Finlands income tax take is 7- 30% which is a lot less than ours...

I am not sure what the spend is...the point is that for what the tax payer is paying in Ireland is more and even with more beds per capita we have 500+ people on trollies..

Whats is your point to all of this ...Are you really saying that it is acceptable to have 500+ people on trollies over the xmas and new year period no mater what the context?

RobbieTheRobber · 07-01-2011 03:57PM

fliball123 wrote: »

What fcuking context would you like...are you for real how can you even begin to defend this..I have given you now two stats with an unrealistic comparison of the u.s where we have more beds per capita and we pay more income tax and before we get to where the tax money goes (the black hole that is the banks and p.s pay and the dole) we are not getting any value for our taxes

Can you please deal with facts and not emotionally charged pieces of your opinion!

Right now in my head you sound like the vicars wife in the simpsons proclaiming.

"wont somene please think of the children" :rolleyes:

fliball123 · 07-01-2011 03:59PM

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Can you please deal with facts and not emotionally charged pieces of your opinion!

Right now in my head you sound like the vicars wife in the simpsons proclaiming.

"wont somene please think of the children" :rolleyes:

Well you still are trying to defend in the indefencable I have given you now 2 sites with 2 sets of stats stating we pay more tax in 2 countries that you picked US and finland and beds per cap we have more and yet you think its fine and dandy to have 500+ people on trollies or am I picking you up wrong

RobbieTheRobber · 07-01-2011 04:02PM

fliball123 wrote: »

As I said it depends on the state in America but over all yes it is 1st world - thats just opinion

Not sure whta Norway is but Finlands income tax take is 7- 30% which is a lot less than ours...

So america is 1st world country yet has less health care than ours does for uninsured patients, yet you proclaim ors 3rd world. Hmm interesting but incorrect.

As for finland is that tax rate your opinion or fact a link on wiki which i provided earlier disagrees with you says their highest rate of tax is 52%. so Again your incorrect.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_of_Europe

I am not sure what the spend is...the point is that for what the tax payer is paying in Ireland is more and even with more beds per capita we have 500+ people on trollies..

Whats is your point to all of this ...Are you really saying that it is acceptable to have 500+ people on trollies over the xmas and new year period no mater what the context?

Your not sure what the spend is, you dont know anythign about the numbers, yet you are comparing them and finding us worse,

can i ask how exactly you discovered we were worse?
Your opinion or Facts?

RobbieTheRobber · 07-01-2011 04:03PM

fliball123 wrote: »

Well you still are trying to defend in the indefencable I have given you now 2 sites with 2 sets of stats stating we pay more tax in 2 countries that you picked US and finland and beds per cap we have more and yet you think its fine and dandy to have 500+ people on trollies or am I picking you up wrong

That is a striaght out lie, you have provided me with no stats, none at all!

You are also very mistaken about finlands tax rate but your stats, oh thats right you didnt give me any!

fliball123 · 07-01-2011 04:06PM

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

That is a striaght out lie, you have provided me with no stats, none at all!

You are also very mistaken about finlands tax rate but your stats, oh thats right you didnt give me any!

There is 2 links within the last 5/6 posts I have here one is income tax per country and the other is hospital beds per capita if your too lazy to look fair enough...

RobbieTheRobber · 07-01-2011 04:08PM

fliball123 wrote: »

There is 2 links within the last 5/6 posts I have here one is income tax per country and the other is hospital beds per capita if your too lazy to look fair enough...

here is a quote form the first link on google for finalnd average tax rate

With a marginal tax rate of 46.6 on average workers, Finland has the fourth highest such rate in the world.

http://www.businesspundit.com/12-countries-with-the-highest-lowest-tax-rates/

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

RobbieTheRobber · 07-01-2011 04:11PM

here fliball have more
http://www.justlanded.com/english/Finland/Finland-Guide/Jobs/Taxation

:rolleyes:

fliball123 · 07-01-2011 04:13PM

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

here fliball have more
http://www.justlanded.com/english/Finland/Finland-Guide/Jobs/Taxation

:rolleyes:

and what has this got to do with 500+ people on trollies?????

RobbieTheRobber · 07-01-2011 04:16PM

fliball123 wrote: »

and what has this got to do with 500+ people on trollies?????

Do they or dont they pay more tax more personal contributions and have a higher per head of capita spend on health than ireland. do they appear higher than ireland in the WHO rankings?

Does ireland have a higher tax spend than america on health per head of capita and do we appear higher in the rankings.

Can you see a trend occuring, my dear fellow?

Where you wrong about finlands tax rate?
Can we now do a similiar comparrisson on an other Scandinavian country such as norway?

kaiser sauze · 07-01-2011 04:19PM

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

That is a wild assumption I assume you have valid facts and evidence to back up your incorrect claims?

What aspect of his claims are incorrect?

Are you disputing that The US has lower tax rates than we do, less beds per heads of pop and that there were 500+ people on trolleys recently as there were no beds available for them?

RobbieTheRobber · 07-01-2011 04:20PM

kaiser sauze wrote: »

What aspect of his claims are incorrect?

Are you disputing that The US has lower tax rates than we do, less beds per heads of pop and that there were 500+ people on trolleys recently as there were no beds available for them?

would it not be quicker to ask which are correct?

I asked flipball about health care for uninsured people as i am certain that those waiting on beds are most likley not insured.

I asked for a comparrision on health care uninsured between ireland and the usa none was forthcoming.

The piece i dispute is this

(the black hole that is the banks and p.s pay and the dole) we are not getting any value for our taxes

Its opinion and serves no place in a factual debate about how much certain posters hate the PS!

fliball123 · 07-01-2011 04:25PM

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

would it not be quicker to ask which are correct?

Do you know what Robbie your a hard man to answer a question so I will answer one for you and then I would like the same coutesy

US pays less tax
US has less beds per capita

Finland pays more taxes (less income tax do)
Finland have more beds per capita

Now you have asked I have answered now answer this

Show me where Finland or the US have 500+ people on trollies?

As for value for money I bet the 500+ would concur with this..

Your an obvious ps wind up merchant to the core...and if you dont answer my question I will just ignore you

RobbieTheRobber · 07-01-2011 04:27PM

fliball123 wrote: »

Do you know what Robbie your a hard man to answer a question so I will answer one for you and then I would like the same coutesy

US pays less tax
US has less beds per capita

Finland pays more taxes (less income tax do)
Finland have more beds per capita

Now you have asked I have answered now answer this

Show me where Finland or the US have 500+ people on trollies?

That question was not for you i have many other question before this one you are choosng to ignore because you dislike the truth.

I will quickly ask without healthcare in the USa are you not excluded from medical treatment?
So they dont put them on trollies they just dont treat them, is that better?

Edit:

For ease fliball i have added my last questions for you

Do they or dont they pay more tax more personal contributions and have a higher per head of capita spend on health than ireland. do they appear higher than ireland in the WHO rankings?

Does ireland have a higher tax spend than america on health per head of capita and do we appear higher in the rankings.

Can you see a trend occuring, my dear fellow?

Where you wrong about finlands tax rate?
Can we now do a similiar comparrisson on an other Scandinavian country such as norway?

kaiser sauze · 07-01-2011 04:36PM

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

would it not be quicker to ask which are correct?

You need to take a step back and try and deal with the points, not throwing in distractions.

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

I asked flipball about health care for uninsured people as i am certain that those waiting on beds are most likley not insured.

Uninsured in The US?

Anyway, you missed his/her point about the systems. They cannot be compared.

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

I asked for a comparrision on health care uninsured between ireland and the usa none was forthcoming.

See above.

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

The piece i dispute is this

(the black hole that is the banks and p.s pay and the dole) we are not getting any value for our taxes

You defend the bank bailouts; the extortionate claims made by developers on the capital purse and widespread welfare fraud that PS working there seem to have no inclination to tackle, for example?

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Its opinion and serves no place in a factual debate about how much certain posters hate the PS!

The banks are a black hole, we do not get value for our taxes and PS pay is another piece of this black hole that needs major reform.

noodler · 07-01-2011 04:41PM

kceire wrote: »

And still nobody listens to actual factual figures, they go on Posting more stuff they have heard down the pub or picked up from another ill informed poster on here.

You can't be serious - that you are arguing from a vested interest isobvious yet I don't contiously point that out to try and weaken any argument you make - you would do well to do the same.

kceire wrote: »

Pensions should be looked at in the PS and policital sectors but a blanket cut is grossly unfair to the staff that actualy contribute their full entitlements.

Duh duh duh. I am sorry - but that is the only answer here. I have lost count of how many times I said a blanket cur on wages or pensions was unfair and lazt by the Government.

kceire wrote: »

If I opened a private pension and contributed 309 per month to it I would have approx 50% more in my fund as my PRSA from my private sector days has increased by quite Alice if I'm honest.

Somebody posted an excel sheet on here many moons ago that showed that PS workers up to approx 45k over contribute to their pension funds.

I am not going to dispute you personal situation - but the fact remains the public sector pensions on a whole do not support themselves.

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

20 years of pensions for a male in the Ps would be very generous seeing as retirement age is 65 and average life expectancy is 76.8 for a male in ireland. So 11.8 years of pensions.

And for a female average life expectancy is 81.6 so just over 16 years of pension on average.

so your calculations for twenty years of pension benefits are really kind of absurd!
Wouldnt you say?

You change it the years if you want - there is probably an argument that life expectency will be higher in 40 years time though.

There is also an argument that Public Sector workers do not reflect the national average as they are traditionally better paid and have better pensions.

Absurd, no? Your rants yes.

kaiser sauze · 07-01-2011 04:43PM

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

I will quickly ask without healthcare in the USa are you not excluded from medical treatment?
So they dont put them on trollies they just dont treat them, is that better?

Incorrect.

If they present at an A&E, hospitals are federally mandated to provide all necessary care.

kaiser sauze · 07-01-2011 04:47PM

noodler wrote: »

I am not going to dispute you personal situation - but the fact remains the public sector pensions on a whole do not support themselves.

It is pointless debating with 'kceire' about pensions, s/he has a fundamental misunderstanding of how their pension is funded, or not in PS workers' case, and how a private scheme would not have the same benefit or security.

fliball123 · 07-01-2011 04:49PM

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

That question was not for you i have many other question before this one you are choosng to ignore because you dislike the truth.

I will quickly ask without healthcare in the USa are you not excluded from medical treatment?
So they dont put them on trollies they just dont treat them, is that better?

Edit:

For ease fliball i have added my last questions for you

Do they or dont they pay more tax more personal contributions and have a higher per head of capita spend on health than ireland. do they appear higher than ireland in the WHO rankings?

Does ireland have a higher tax spend than america on health per head of capita and do we appear higher in the rankings.

Can you see a trend occuring, my dear fellow?

Where you wrong about finlands tax rate?
Can we now do a similiar comparrisson on an other Scandinavian country such as norway?

right I will try and go through your quests in bold

I will quickly ask without healthcare in the USa are you not excluded from medical treatment?
So they dont put them on trollies they just dont treat them, is that better?

Being honest I aint sure Robbie what the states do it would be better to treat them on a trolly. Having said that I pay my taxes and I find it hard to swallow that 500+ people are left on Trollies. I have been to A&E many times (once in ST James with a torn retina) for 3 days on a trolly I eventually took my x-ray went to the eye and ear clinic and was seen to in an hour...So do you defend how the state run their hospitals .The fact is the majority of our spend on public services is on the fcuking HSE

Do they or dont they pay more tax more personal contributions and have a higher per head of capita spend on health than ireland. do they appear higher than ireland in the WHO rankings?

Who are we talking about here the U.S or finland anaway

US = 37
Ireland = 19
Finland = 31

This kinda is counter productive to your arguement as we pay more than both of these of these in the rankings. yet the level of sevice is still ****e

And just to add to your stats

preventable deaths we are behind Finland

Health Life expectancy we are behind Finland and the U.S

http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html

and I stand by what I said with Finland we pay more income tax.., but they do pay a health tax or something like that..

Now I have tried to answer your questions as honestly as possible..

Do you think that the current scandal over 500+ patiients not emergancies but actual patients who need do be there is right?

Or the xray scandals?

Or the cancer scandals?

Can you show me some of your links for either of these types of scandals in either Finland or the U.S?

Do our doctors and nurses get paid more than Finland or the US?

RobbieTheRobber · 07-01-2011 04:53PM

noodler wrote: »

You change it the years if you want - there is probably an argument that life expectency will be higher in 40 years time though.

There is also an argument that Public Sector workers do not reflect the national average as they are traditionally better paid and have better pensions.

Absurd, no? Your rants yes.

In forty years time the retirement age will also have increased inline with life expactancy! We are not talking forty years time we can only compare presen facts not presumed future facts!

Gumbo · 07-01-2011 04:54PM

kaiser sauze wrote: »

It is pointless debating with 'kceire' about pensions, s/he has a fundamental misunderstanding of how their pension is funded, or not in PS workers' case, and how a private scheme would not have the same benefit or security.

its pointless debating with somebody that wont take actual facts into consideration. i over contribute to my pension currently and i would opt out at a moments notice.

i would be much better off in a private pension scheme similar to my PRSA that i had in the private sector.

fliball123 wrote: »

right I will try and go through your quests in bold

I will quickly ask without healthcare in the USa are you not excluded from medical treatment?
So they dont put them on trollies they just dont treat them, is that better?

Being honest I aint sure Robbie what the states do it would be better to treat them on a trolly. Having said that I pay my taxes and I find it hard to swallow that 500+ people are left on Trollies. I have been to A&E many times (once in ST James with a torn retina) for 3 days on a trolly I eventually took my x-ray went to the eye and ear clinic and was seen to in an hour...So do you defend how the state run their hospitals .The fact is the majority of our spend on public services is on the fcuking HSE

another poster on heer posted that exact same story last year, i think you are now revealing what your previous username was

kaiser sauze · 07-01-2011 04:59PM

kceire wrote: »

its pointless debating with somebody that wont take actual facts into consideration. i over contribute to my pension currently and i would opt out at a moments notice.

i would be much better off in a private pension scheme similar to my PRSA that i had in the private sector.

Like I just said, you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how your pension is (not)funded and you clearly have not taken my advice to go and see a financial adviser to receive the same (free advice) given here.

Its official : public sector pay per hour is 49% higher than private sector

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