Its official : public sector pay per hour is 49% higher than private sector

fliball123 · 05-01-2011 06:19PM

galway2007 wrote: »

What we need to do first is to slash private sector wages
Ireland is on average goods costs 31% more and most of this is due to massive wage demand in the private sector and massive profit taken by the private sector employers.
When this has being achieved and to live in Ireland cost the same as the rest of Europe we should they do a benchmarking on public sector wages across Europe
So what I am asking for is for the private sector to get there house in order, become competitive stop ripping off Irish people.
So to achieve this we have to options
1) Employers take less profit (was that a pig flying)
2) Slash wages by 20% to 30 %
It has to be done and done now so we can get manufacturing back

Well maybe lets get our public purse into good position first and cut p.s wages to reduce costs

fliball123 · 05-01-2011 06:20PM

galway2007 wrote: »

Hold on now
The private sector pension is all subsidized
1) What the employee put it to the fund get 41% tax relief
2) What the employer put in the fun get tax relief

You have to be a wind up merchant working in the p.s

Look Galway can you quantify p.s wages not coming down
when all other gov spend is being cut?

martian1980 · 05-01-2011 06:32PM

fliball123 wrote: »

You have to be a wind up merchant working in the p.s

Look Galway can you quantify p.s wages not coming down
when all other gov spend is being cut?

but public sector wages are coming down again. Did you not read that indo article?

The Muppet · 05-01-2011 06:33PM

fliball123 wrote: »

Well maybe lets get our public purse into good position first and cut p.s wages to reduce costs

Surely the quickest way of cutting costs and lowering the cost of living is to reduce private sector pay and ensuring those savings are passed on to the consumer.

fliball123 · 05-01-2011 06:36PM

The Muppet wrote: »

Surely the quickest way of cutting costs and lowering the cost of living is to reduce private sector pay and ensuring those savings are passed on to the consumer.

Hang on I never said anything about the cost of living I am talking about the 20billion we are over spending on our tax take

I made the point that all sections of where our taxes go

Pensions - cut
Scratch - cut
Public services - cut
public sector wage - not cut and in some cases increased

taxes increased

and people in the p.s think that they are going to get away with another 4/5 odd budgets of the same descrepancy.

I tried not to argue with Robbie and I will not be drawn into a fight over this

I will simple give my vote to Dame Enda and let him make the nessacery cuts...

martian1980 · 05-01-2011 06:37PM

fliball123 wrote: »

Hang on I never said anything about the cost of living I am talking about the 20billion we are over spending on our tax take

I made the point that all sections of where our taxes go

Pensions - cut
Scratch - cut
Public services - cut
public sector wage - not cut and in some cases increased

taxes increased

and people in the p.s think that they are going to get away with another 4/5 odd budgets of the same descrepancy.

I tried not to argue with Robbie and I will not be drawn into a fight over this

I will simple give my vote to Dame Enda and let him make the nessacery cuts...

but public sector wages are coming down again. Did you not read that indo article?

fliball123 · 05-01-2011 06:39PM

martian1980 wrote: »

but public sector wages are coming down again. Did you not read that indo article?

Which article - so public sector pay has been cut by what %?

fliball123 · 05-01-2011 06:42PM

The Muppet wrote: »

Surely the quickest way of cutting costs and lowering the cost of living is to reduce private sector pay and ensuring those savings are passed on to the consumer.

And therefore less tax take and increasing the gap betwen gov spend and take ...Good man

soden12 · 05-01-2011 06:43PM

Welease wrote: »

On the same salaries? (i.e. comparing apples with apples).. Because I doubt there are many defined contribution pensions that come anywhere near a defined benefit package. Most DB pensions were phased out due to the high costs associated (even the pre bust banks phased them out due to costs). The cost of a DB pension (and I have one) is roughly estimated to cost about 30% of a person's salary... I don't know any private pensions which are funded to that level (apart from a few "top" bankers and developers who could and should not be held up as an average for private sector pension renumeration)

Nearly all current (and past) bank employees are eligible for a gold-plated pension paid for by the taxpayer.

In an attempt to cut costs the banks tried to phase them out but the bwanking unions (the bweards?) threatened to down tools and go on strike or maybe it was a go-slow where they'd only open at 12-2 rather than the current 10-4 ?

Welease · 05-01-2011 06:54PM

soden12 wrote: »

Nearly all current (and past) bank employees are eligible for a gold-plated pension paid for by the taxpayer.

In an attempt to cut costs the banks tried to phase them out but the bwanking unions (the bweards?) threatened to down tools and go on strike or maybe it was a go-slow where they'd only open at 12-2 rather than the current 10-4 ?

But as far as I am aware, the scheme's were closed to new entrants due to the costs in the 90's.

"AIB employees are being balloted by the Irish Bank Officials Association (IBOA) to accept proposals by industrial relations fixer Kevin Foley that would see some staff (those who joined the bank after 1998 when it closed off the defined benefit scheme to new members) pay 4% of their salary this year and 5% next year to help plug the gap in the pension fund."
http://www.tribune.ie/article/2010/feb/21/basel-throws-irish-banks-a-curveball/

Gumbo · 05-01-2011 06:58PM

fliball123 wrote: »

Which article - so public sector pay has been cut by what %?

so in your little world PS pay has not been cut yet???????

fliball123 · 05-01-2011 07:05PM

kceire wrote: »

so in your little world PS pay has not been cut yet???????

Where did I say that?

all I was saying is under cpa ps pay cannot be touched .

It wasnt touched in the last budget

and all spend that the gov have ie

Pensions
Social Welfare
public services

these have all been cut in the last budget and will be in the next 4/5 ...my point is why isnt the p.s pay not on the table aswell

The Muppet · 05-01-2011 07:07PM

fliball123 wrote: »

And therefore less tax take and increasing the gap betwen gov spend and take ...Good man

The Public sector pays tax too so the same argument applies, best to leave things as they are so.

Gumbo · 05-01-2011 07:08PM

fliball123 wrote: »

Where did I say that?

all I was saying is under cpa ps pay cannot be touched .

It wasnt touched in the last budget

and all spend that the gov have ie

Pensions
Social Welfare
public services

these have all been cut in the last budget and will be in the next 4/5 ...my point is why isnt the p.s pay not on the table aswell

the fact is that the PS pay bill needs to be reduced, currently the PS pay bill is being reduced. whats the problem, or is it just the fact that you want to see people lose income???

my income has dropped significantly over the last 4 years, to the point that my mortgage is now over 50% of my salary, if it keeps getting cut, the house will be handed back, full stop, causing more trouble than whats here at the moment.

before the high horse brigade come in and say you shouldnt of bought, you borrowed too much etc etc i bought a mid terrece house in Finglas, not a 5 bed semi D is a plush estate somewhere.

fliball123 · 05-01-2011 07:21PM

kceire wrote: »

the fact is that the PS pay bill needs to be reduced, currently the PS pay bill is being reduced. whats the problem, or is it just the fact that you want to see people lose income???

my income has dropped significantly over the last 4 years, to the point that my mortgage is now over 50% of my salary, if it keeps getting cut, the house will be handed back, full stop, causing more trouble than whats here at the moment.

before the high horse brigade come in and say you shouldnt of bought, you borrowed too much etc etc i bought a mid terrece house in Finglas, not a 5 bed semi D is a plush estate somewhere.

Well thats your fault for bying a house that which you clearly could not afford..

No I just want to see cuts evenly distributed through all expenditure and hopefully I will not be taxed as much in the next couple of years...its not that complex it simple maths...The other side is that if we are on natural wastage we are shifting the paying of p.s to either the pension or to the scratch so its not saving as much as a cut in wages would

Gumbo · 05-01-2011 07:33PM

fliball123 wrote: »

The other side is that if we are on natural wastage we are shifting the paying of p.s to either the pension or to the scratch so its not saving as much as a cut in wages would

but if a PS employee moves to the pension scheme, we are saving 50% straight away.

noodler · 05-01-2011 08:13PM

The Muppet wrote: »

The Public sector pays tax too so the same argument applies, best to leave things as they are so.

Not really.

The Muppet · 05-01-2011 08:34PM

fliball123 wrote: »

Well thats your fault for bying a house that which you clearly could not afford..

No I just want to see cuts evenly distributed through all expenditure and hopefully I will not be taxed as much in the next couple of years...its not that complex it simple maths...The other side is that if we are on natural wastage we are shifting the paying of p.s to either the pension or to the scratch so its not saving as much as a cut in wages would

I agree cuts should be evenly distributed, whatever wage cuts/tax increases are down the line should be applied evenly to all sectors.

noodler · 05-01-2011 09:08PM

The Muppet wrote: »

I agree cuts should be evenly distributed, whatever wage cuts/tax increases are down the line should be applied evenly to all sectors.

Are you acting up for the sake of it?

The Government has no need to touch any wage in the private sector susceptible to market forces - they take care of themselves and fund themselves.

martian1980 · 05-01-2011 09:10PM

fliball123 wrote: »

Which article - so public sector pay has been cut by what %?

why the one that i quoted for you just 10 short posts before you said this.

It's a mistake to take such a simplistic view of things - just because they don't announce a cut of x%, doesn't mean they're not reducing the paybill.

According to that article, a public sector worker on 50k will be 48 quid a month worse off a month than a private sector worker on 52k will be as a result of the changes. Remember, that 50k is gross of the pension levy, which lenihan admitted is a paycut. The public sector worker on 50k will be down a grand a year, and that's a grand after tax, which would be equivalent to about 1700 before tax.
Also, the introduction of the 10% cut for new entrants puts the writing on the wall that another 10% paycut will be coming if decent savings don't come out of the croke park agreement later in the year.
You can sneer at the scale of the pension change costs for public service workeres, but the cumulative effect of the paycuts that have already happened, as well as increased taxation, increased pension costs and probably another paycut is massive and will cause PS workers with even comparatively modest mortgages taken out in the last 7 years to have serious financial problems.

martian1980 · 05-01-2011 09:12PM

noodler wrote: »

Are you acting up for the sake of it?

The Government has no need to touch any wage in the private sector susceptible to market forces - they take care of themselves and fund themselves.

and their inflated wages will increase the cost of living for everyone until they eventually come down. We are still a low-tax economy. Everyone needs to pay more tax.

martian1980 · 05-01-2011 09:12PM

noodler wrote: »

Not really.

great post

The Muppet · 05-01-2011 10:16PM

noodler wrote: »

Are you acting up for the sake of it?

The Government has no need to touch any wage in the private sector susceptible to market forces - they take care of themselves and fund themselves.

The cost of living is the same for Public Sector workers as Private sector. To reduce this cost of living it's only common sense that private sector wages must be reduced. This would increase our competitiveness and aid recovery

noodler · 05-01-2011 10:17PM

The Muppet wrote: »

The cost of living is the same for Public Sector workers as Private sector. To reduce this cost of living it's only common sense that private sector wages must be reduced. If this is done by taxation all sectors will be equally affected. This would increase our competitiveness and aid recovery

Deary me.

Its good to know you like a good windup on more than one forum Muppet.

martian1980 · 05-01-2011 10:28PM

The Muppet wrote: »

The cost of living is the same for Public Sector workers as Private sector. To reduce this cost of living it's only common sense that private sector wages must be reduced. This would increase our competitiveness and aid recovery

that's completely true. I'm sure they will adjust over time, and that private sector employers will use the fact that public sector wages have fallen too as part of the justification for the cuts.

noodler · 05-01-2011 10:33PM

The Muppet wrote: »

The cost of living is the same for Public Sector workers as Private sector. To reduce this cost of living it's only common sense that private sector wages must be reduced. This would increase our competitiveness and aid recovery

martian1980 wrote: »

that's completely true. I'm sure they will adjust over time, and that private sector employers will use the fact that public sector wages have fallen too as part of the justification for the cuts.

Hmm. No, Public Sector Wages increased out of all proportion over the last 15 years compared to private wages. When the extra revenue fell away the wages had to / have to fall.

I know you aren't really as dense as you make out Muppet so I'll ignore your hilarious thought of putting extra tax on the private sector - go onto Irisheconomy.ie and post that in one of the comments sections and ask "why shouldn't we do this?" - I'll get the popcorn.

Average Private Sector wages, despite not increasing by the same level as the public sector, were the first to fall - they have adjusted all on their own - The PS ones had to be dragged kicking and screaming.

martian1980 · 05-01-2011 10:48PM

noodler wrote: »

Hmm. No, Public Sector Wages increased out of all proportion over the last 15 years compared to private wages. When the extra revenue fell away the wages had to / have to fall.

I know you aren't really as dense as you make out Muppet so I'll ignore your hilarious thought of putting extra tax on the private sector - go onto Irisheconomy.ie and post that in one of the comments sections and ask "why shouldn't we do this?" - I'll get the popcorn.

Average Private Sector wages, despite not increasing by the same level as the public sector, were the first to fall - they have adjusted all on their own - The PS ones had to be dragged kicking and screaming.

there's no need to go insulting other posters. lets take a look at one of our bright young economists view on the matter - Ronan Lyons:

the median earner pays about 4% in income tax in Ireland, compared to 20% in the OECD. That speaks for itself.

It would be nice if you reply to this one with some facts, rather than insults.

source: http://www.ronanlyons.com/2009/07/28/a-little-quiz-on-irelands-income-tax/

noodler · 05-01-2011 10:56PM

martian1980 wrote: »

there's no need to go insulting other posters. lets take a look at one of our bright young economists view on the matter - Ronan Lyons:

the median earner pays about 4% in income tax in Ireland, compared to 20% in the OECD. That speaks for itself.

It would be nice if you reply to this one with some facts, rather than insults.

source: http://www.ronanlyons.com/2009/07/28/a-little-quiz-on-irelands-income-tax/

I don't believe this.

Take an economics course please but do not misrepresent RL's view like that please - especially in any attempt to defend the PS wage bill - his stance in that is pretty well-known.

Have you any professional training in economics? Maths even?

I'll say this much to you, our income tax take is too low - no doubt. Hence the reason and bands and tax credits are being reduced by 10% this year and a further 2% in 2012, 2013, 2014. Now remember he is only talking about income tax - none of the other charges.

Just so you are in no doubt about where Ronan stands on PS Pay:

http://www.ronanlyons.com/2009/11/24/public-sector-pay-and-the-idea-of-intensive-not-extensive-cuts/

http://www.ronanlyons.com/2010/08/03/pay-bill-figures-show-the-need-for-public-service-transformation/

http://www.ronanlyons.com/2009/07/13/public-sector-versus-private-sector-pay-update/

http://www.ronanlyons.com/2009/02/04/public-sector-pay-in-ireland-the-e50000-question-its-not-that-difficult/

martian1980 · 05-01-2011 11:03PM

noodler wrote: »

I don't believe this.

Take an economics course please but do not misrepresent RL's view like that please - especially in any attempt to defend the PS wage bill - his stance in that is pretty well-known.

Have you any professional training in economics? Maths even?

I'll say this much to you, our income tax take is too low - no doubt. Hence the reason and bands and tax credits are being reduced by 10% this year and a further 2% in 2012, 2013, 2014. Now remember he is only talking about income tax - none of the other charges.

Just so you are in no doubt about where Ronan stands on PS Pay:

http://www.ronanlyons.com/2009/11/24/public-sector-pay-and-the-idea-of-intensive-not-extensive-cuts/

http://www.ronanlyons.com/2010/08/03/pay-bill-figures-show-the-need-for-public-service-transformation/

I gave you a fact there, quoted directly. It wouldn't matter who said it. I was posting that stat in response to your assertion that there was no more room for tax increases - a different issue to that of public sector pay. Why are you casting aspersions on my education when I quoted a fact? Maybe you could respond by telling me what the increased taxes and charges will increase the 4% to, rather than slagging me off.

noodler · 05-01-2011 11:06PM

I haven't slagged you off. I was speaking to Muppet because I know him well from another forum.

Saying we are a low income tax country is one thing and to be fair, you'd want to have ignored the previous two budgets and newspaper for the last 18 months not to know it.

However saying RL feels the income tax in Ireland is low does not mean he favours raising it on the private sector alone - I mean have you ever heard anything like it?

Its official : public sector pay per hour is 49% higher than private sector

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