Do Dogs Need Proper Training?

Shazanne · 29-12-2010 9:23pm #1

I have two very spoiled rescue dogs. I took them to the vet recently for my eldest ones vaccines and he suggested that I take them for proper training and highly recommended a trainer.
I have mentioned this to a few people I know and several have said that dogs are much happier when they are properly trained and disciplined. Mine are just spoiled and are treated like children. However, I do acknowledge that they could do with some discipline:o particularly the youngest as he displays some separation anxiety and jealousy at times.
Today I booked them in for training with the guy who was recommended. Since I did so I have been in contact with someone who took her dog to this man and she said he uses choke chains and shouts instructions at the dogs. When I asked him earlier if he uses any harsh measures he told me he uses a "slip lead" - I have never heard of this.
Basically, what I want to know is whether dogs are happier with training and discipline? If they have not had very much training up to now, aged 4 and 2, would it be very unsettling for them? I know nothing about their past lives or what may have happened to them and I certainly don't want to make them unhappy in any way. I just want to do what's right by them.

Whispered · 29-12-2010 9:44pm

A slip lead is basically a lead you can slip over your dog neck without the need for a collar. I *think* they all work like a choke chain, at least any I have seen are.

I'd personally not use one on my dog, nor would I go next or near a trainer who uses them. Was the woman who told you about the trainer the only person you wre speaking to about him? It could be one unhappy customer trying to make him sound bad? Have you had any recommendations from people for this trainer?

Training should be an enjoyable experience for your dogs (so long as you have a good trainer) so I wouldn't worry about it affecting them badly at all. It should really be a bonding experience.

It could be difficult for a trainer to go to your home and work on all of the issues lack of training can lead to. Maybe you'd like to try upping your own training at home, then you can find your real problem areas and get a trainer in for that?

EDIT: On the question of dogs needing training or not, I do think they are happier with set rules, clear instructions etc.

EGAR · 29-12-2010 9:46pm

Dogs need to be trained with BRAIN not BRAWN. If anyone needs to choke chain or slip lead (basically the same thing) then they are not good trainers. You need to look for a trainer who uses positive enforcement only. I would run a mile from any trainer like the one you are supposed to go to.

Cherry Blossom · 29-12-2010 9:52pm

Agility training is obedience training and exercise all in one and sounds like way more fun

, sounds like this might suit you better especially as a starting point maybe?

Thinking of getting some formal training for Poppy as she is only obedient when the treats come out! So many people have told me that it's just down to Westie mentality and apparantly I will see a huge change in her after she turns a year old so I'm thinking of taking her to an agility class starting in January as I'm unsure if the money would be well spent on basic obedience or not. I've done an awful lot of training with her at home and she knows exactly what I want from her, she just chooses not to do it like a typical teenager :rolleyes:.

belongtojazz · 29-12-2010 10:00pm

I believe a trained dog and owner are much happier. Both know what is expected of the other so there is less confusion and frustration.

Both of your dogs are young and should take to training no problem. The only negative is, if it is a group training environment some dogs find that very stressful. While my little girl thrived in a group, my big guy couldn't cope with it, there was too much stimulus for him and he got very wound up. He responds very well when it is just me and him without any other dogs or people. This is due to his situation before I got him. I cannot walk him in any area where there is a lot going on (town for instance) it just upsets him too much:(

I really can't recommend training enough

Go for it, just remember it should be fun for everyone and most important of all,same as human kids, always be consistent

belongtojazz · 29-12-2010 10:03pm

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

Agility training is obedience training and exercise all in one and sounds like way more fun , sounds like this might suit you better especially as a starting point maybe?

Thinking of getting some formal training for Poppy as she is only obedient when the treats come out! So many people have told me that it's just down to Westie mentality and apparantly I will see a huge change in her after she turns a year old so I'm thinking of taking her to an agility class starting in January as I'm unsure if the money would be well spent on basic obedience or not. I've done an awful lot of training with her at home and she knows exactly what I want from her, she just chooses not to do it like a typical teenager :rolleyes:.

With agility a certain amount of basic obedience is required first, they need to sit, wait and have a halfway decent recall. Otherwise you spend half your class trying to get them back and stop them interuptting other people :P

oh and should have added it is great fun though

Shazanne · 29-12-2010 11:28pm

Hi all and thanks for the replies.
The trainer in question was recommended to me by my vet, whom I have every confidence in as a vet. I have only spoken to this one woman about the trainer and she ended up selling her dog as she felt he was viscous. I had met the dog only once and did not share her opinion but then I was not in a position to judge. She had taken the dog to this trainer twice so maybe that was not long enough to see any benefits? The trainer has told me has 16 years experience and also trains police dogs - not too sure how I felt about that!
My dogs have very defined problems and I am not sure what route to take with them. I certainly dont want "military" behaved dogs - I want happy and secure dogs. And I particularly want the younger dog to overcome his separation problems (particularly weeing when I leave the room) and not to react with jealousy towards my other dog.
I don't think I would be very good at imposing strict rules on them, unless I was sure it was for their own good. I just honestly don't know what to do. A friend suggested tonight that I send them for residential training, saying that they will respond better if I am not there and will come home "reformed". That didn't sound like a good option to me but I would value the opinion of anyone who has tried it.

portgirl123 · 30-12-2010 12:05am

there is a great trainer not far from u, who works with positive training. not sure if i can mention names on here so pm if u want her name and number.

Whispered · 30-12-2010 2:00am

portgirl123 wrote: »

there is a great trainer not far from u, who works with positive training. not sure if i can mention names on here so pm if u want her name and number.

you can mention names I think. Is it emmaline?

adser53 · 30-12-2010 2:32am

Shazanne wrote:

I have two very spoiled rescue dogs.I took them to the vet recently for my eldest ones vaccines and he suggested that I take them for proper training and highly recommended a trainer.
I have mentioned this to a few people I know and several have said that dogs are much happier when they are properly trained and disciplined. Mine are just spoiled and are treated like children. However, I do acknowledge that they could do with some discipline particularly the youngest as he displays some separation anxiety and jealousy at times.
Today I booked them in for training with the guy who was recommended. Since I did so I have been in contact with someone who took her dog to this man and she said he uses choke chains and shouts instructions at the dogs. When I asked him earlier if he uses any harsh measures he told me he uses a "slip lead" - I have never heard of this.
Basically, what I want to know is whether dogs are happier with training and discipline? If they have not had very much training up to now, aged 4 and 2, would it be very unsettling for them? I know nothing about their past lives or what may have happened to them and I certainly don't want to make them unhappy in any way. I just want to do what's right by them.

IMO Shaz, a dog that knows it's routine and such is a happier dog. BUT I don't mean a dog that will sit, stay, roll over etc on command 100% of the time out of fear either. By all accounts, you have 2 very happy dogs that cause you, and others, no grief, so why would you need professional help? If you don't mind me asking, why did your vet suggest training in the first place? (and as we're neighbours, what vet was it...just so I can avoid the embarrassment of bringing my 3 wild ones to them

:D:D) Seperation anxiety can't be solved by anyone but yourself (again, IMO)

As for the slip leads...if they're anything like choke chains, I'd keep well away! You may have seen me walking around with my akitas with Headcollars on them which can look uncomfortable to them, but a slip/choke chain is a very outdated method of dog control/training in comparison.

Personally, if I were you:

Once my dogs were happy and weren't a nuisance to me, my family or others in the house or out on walks, then that's the hard part dealt with, the rest I can deal with by myself in my own time and I wouldn't be going paying a trainer. If you are having problems, post on here first

Graces7 · 30-12-2010 8:23am

Most DOG OWNERS need training.

I count myself among these; until the two rescues came this way I had personally never had a dog; it was Siamese then rescue cats for me.

We have professional dog breeders and trainers in immediate family so I got trained at every stage

And how!

BUT at a distance to that it was I who handled and trained the dogs.

I think it is far better for a dog to form a discipline bond with the owner than to involve any third party.

We had wee dog from a puppy and she was trained by a family member who was over here for six months. So the basics were laid down and we were very, very careful in transferring her bonding to me . She still has that basis now

Collie was a very different matter; aged five and with no training, unless you call being shut in a dark shed forcibly most of day and night training.

And it can still be hard work with her. BUT compared with when I took her on? Her recall is patchy; we cannot compete with a car passing along the road! But when that has passed she responds to an earlier call... She gets very excited at the word "walkies".. We have never bribed her with food/ treats. Simply her bondedness and trust over the 4 years she has been ours.

It takes firmness and patience. And she has only the training that she needs for where she lives.

As for happier? a dog is happiest when owner is happy with her. No treats or punishments can compete with that bonding. When collie has behaved badly and been told so, she will roll over on her back, paw out, to apologise. The threat of 'whiskey" which she hates the mere smell of, remains our real discipline weapon.

It simply is our displeasure that recalls a dog to its better self

tk123 · 30-12-2010 9:21am

Whispered wrote: »

I'd personally not use one on my dog, nor would I go next or near a trainer who uses them.

+1 on this. Our guy is trained with positive reinforcement - slip leads/choke chains etc are seen as negative punishments. It seems to be a controversial topic though - a lot of owners will take great offence if you say anything against them.

I think it all comes down to you OP and what method you'd prefer - do you want the training to be fun for both you and the dogs or a chore? My dog LOVES practicing his tricks etc - his tail wags the whole time and we both have fun. I doubt I'd have the same response from him if I was shouting orders at him or yanking his neck.

Qualitymark · 30-12-2010 9:35am

Of course dogs need training - and they *love* it if it's proper training. What they don't need is Hitler, and from the sound of you, OP, you don't want to be Hitler in your own home.

Take a look at http://www.dogsbehavingbadly.ie - this trainer was on the radio yesterday, and she sounds like the business. She uses clicker training, which involves rewards and gentleness.

You might read Don't Shoot the Dog by Karen Pryor (http://www.clickertraining.com and http://www.amazon.co.uk/Dont-Shoot-Dog-Teaching-Training/dp/1860542387/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpi_1), which is funny and useful.

Clicker training is great for things like "Four Paws on the Floor", a good sit-stay, and agility.

We spent Christmas training our dog to find toys hidden around the house, or rather the ground floor, since she's not allowed upstairs. Had a lot of fun, and there was a happy waggy tail.

Oh, and if your dogs pull on the lead, you might try the Gentle Walker harness - this seems to make my dog feel secure and happy, and stopped her pulling as a puppy. They sell them in Breffni House pet shop in Windy Arbour, between Dundrum and Milltown.

Toulouse · 30-12-2010 11:13am

Shazanne, if you feel there are areas in which your dogs need help then professional training is the way to go. However not all trainers are the same and I certainly wouldn't be going to any that don't use positive reinforcement.

If you are in the Laois area then there is a member of the APDT in Ireland http://www.apdt.ie/ near you. Maureen Byrne of Dogs Behaving Badly as mentioned in the previous post is a member as is Alison Bush who is just outside Abbeyleix http://www.happierhoundsdogtraining.com/

portgirl123 · 30-12-2010 12:37pm

Whispered wrote: »

you can mention names I think. Is it emmaline?

no. her name is alison from happier hounds. she is brilliant. based in abbyleix

SarahMs · 30-12-2010 12:53pm

I would agree with the dog owners needing training!!! Dog training only works if there is constancy ALL THE TIME, no matter where or when.

But I don't agree with having to pay someone to train your dog. If you do your research it's easy to do it yourself and you will prob get a better response if you do.

Our dog had 6 pups, when 4 of them left aged 10 weeks all were house trained(knew how to indicate how to let us know they needed out) knew sit, roll over etc. Even now, the 2 we kept are just over a year old and everyone remarks on their manners.

They are like children you get out what you put in.

Shazanne · 30-12-2010 5:11pm

Hi again,
I firstly wish to thank everyone who has taken the time to reply to this post and for sharing their advice and beliefs with me. As always, I am much obliged to my Boards friends:)

To my neighbour Adser - the reason my vet suggested training was because, when I took them both there just before Christmas, my four years old barked the place down! She gets over-excited and hyper and nothing will stop her barking. She refuses to be distracted and will not respond to anything I do or say. Eventually the vet had to take her to a back room to do the necessary - vaccinations, anal glands, ears etc. Once he did that and the veterinary staff were handling her, she quietened down considerably. My youngest was a model dog that day - allowed all procedures to be carried out and almost smiled at the vet, which of course made the other one look ten times worse! It's at home that he has the problems (she's the model at home!) and, as I said, wees if left alone in the kitchen (even though my other dog is there with him) and is bullying her a bit and more frequently than before.
By the way, my vet is not local - so no worries there:D

To Graces7; I totally agree that owners need training and I am fully prepared to be trained. The guy I am booked to go to has told me that I (and the hubby) will be doing all the work and that he will be monitoring our interaction with the dogs. He reckons that both of us will need different training depending on how the dogs respond to us. He has also said that we must continue our commitment to training at home and that he will visit us at home to see the dogs in their own environment.

To SarahMS; I agree equally that you get out what you put in with training but my difficulty I suppose is not really knowing what to put in. And I also hold my hand up to not being consistent. As I said at the outset, both my dogs are very spoiled and it is me that has done this. That is why I asked initially if they would be happier and more secure with proper discipline and training. For instance, does my youngest dog suffer separation anxiety when I leave the room because he is insecure and, if so, how do I reassure him that I will be back and how can I correct him for making a wee on the floor when I don't see him doing it - this would surely confuse him?

Sorry for going on so long (I can't seem to get the hang of short posts:D:D)
and, again, thank you all so much for your replies.

SarahMs · 30-12-2010 6:04pm

I think what made it easy for me was that I didn't think of them as 'dogs'. I thought of them as kids.

if you child did a wee on the floor, without you seeing, would you not tell them off simply because you didn't see? No you would show the child the wee, tell them it was 'bold' (or whatever chose word) and give them a punishment (put outside, no cuddles,take their fav toy away). Eventually the dog/child is going to realise ok every time I do a wee on the floor I get told off. Just because you didn't see the wee being done, doesn't mean it magically appeared it had to come from somewhere!!!!

(not sure who will agree with this but it worked on all 6 for me and only had to do it once, when they missed the paper, i simply put their nose in it for a few seconds... cue struggles and crys.... and pee on paper from there on in)

As for the separation aniexty, you have to break the pattern.it's a habit for him to be nervous when leave. it's like any habit, you just have to change it. You have to just stick it out, say goodbye to the dog, leave the room/house and don't go back to comfort. Then when you come back LOADS of praise. If your pattern is leave, come back comfort, leave, come back check/comfort, leave talk through the door etc of course the dog is gonna be confused!! It's prob gonna be harder for you to face that one then the dog, that one is big time consistency! it is hard when the pattern or routine is so ingrained. take away their toys and give them back one by one for every time they don't cry or scratch at the door when your gone. they will soon realise good behavior = toys

also.... and I am a saddo for even thinking of this one.... when I started to leave the pups by themselves (and away from their mother) i would set a timer first for say 10 mins, then 20, then 30, then an hour etc.... they pups soon learned to associate the noise of the timer going off with me returning. They got used to the idea that I was away and when the buzz when off they knew I was coming soon.

I suppose each person is different though as to what methods they want to us

Qualitymark · 30-12-2010 6:14pm

SarahMs wrote: »

if you child did a wee on the floor, without you seeing, would you not tell them off simply because you didn't see? No you would show the child the wee, tell them it was 'bold' (or whatever chose word) and give them a punishment (put outside, no cuddles,take their fav toy away). Eventually the dog/child is going to realise ok every time I do a wee on the floor I get told off. Just because you didn't see the wee being done, doesn't mean it magically appeared it had to come from somewhere!!!!

Depending on the age, this might work with a child. Not with a dog, which will be baffled. A dog won't really connect the puddle on the floor with the fact that it peed some time ago!

With a dog, you have to bring it outside, wait till it's peeing and say an approving word or phrase - always the same one.

If you say it every time, or nearly every time, after a while it will associate the word or phrase with the action, and you can bring it outside and say "Do your business", or whatever the phrase is, and it'll crouch and pee - and get a reward for understanding.

Shazanne · 30-12-2010 9:48pm

I totally agree with you Qualitymark.
In my case Max (my youngest dog) has gotten so much better at letting me know when he needs to make a wee. And when he goes out and does it I give him lots of praise, which he loves. However, even if I take him out for a wee before I leave the kitchen he will still wee on the floor if I leave the room. This is why I feel it is separation anxiety. He never wees when I am in the kitchen with him, and usually goes to the door to let me know he needs to go out.

Qualitymark · 30-12-2010 10:53pm

Shazanne, depends on the age. He'll probably grow out of it. Dogs normally have an instinct (unless they're very young or very old) to keep their 'home place' wee-free.

EKRIUQ · 30-12-2010 11:52pm

EGAR wrote: »

Dogs need to be trained with BRAIN not BRAWN. If anyone needs to choke chain or slip lead (basically the same thing) then they are not good trainers. You need to look for a trainer who uses positive enforcement only. I would run a mile from any trainer like the one you are supposed to go to.

Do you know anything about training dog's not cuddly terriers or poodles. Big strong powerful dogs like Rottweilers or German Shepherds. Try holding back a rottweiler that's excited with a doggy treat.

Whispered · 31-12-2010 1:27am

Anybody I know with a well behaved large dog has a well behaved large dog through plenty of positive reinforcement and gentle training. Agressive training, leads to agressive dog.

A poodle is certainly not akin to a "cuddly terrier". In fact, terriers are rarely "cuddly" and most are certainly as feisty as ANY shep or rottweiler I've met.

How do you suggest someone train a large dog? Perhaps contribute as well as insult?

The Sweeper · 31-12-2010 2:56am

I would be very concerned about a trainer using a slip lead in class.

At obedience class, you may find your dog demonstrates more obedience and interestedness in the trainer than in you - much of this is because the trainer is a new person, and therefore more interesting; they're also laying down clear signals from the get-go so it's easy for the dog to realise what the training is about.

It can be disheartening to feel like you're 'nagging' your dog and have the trainer step in and the dog respond, but this is the environment in which a slip lead would concern me. The dog is going to respond to the trainer anyway, and I wouldn't like to see my dog corrected by someone who he's being on his best behaviour with anyway.

boomerang · 31-12-2010 3:03am

portgirl123 wrote: »

no. her name is alison from happier hounds. she is brilliant. based in abbyleix

I will second that vote for Alison - I used to take my dog to her agility classes and I've also taken a course in canine behaviour and training with her. She is lovely and she really knows her stuff! She believes in kind, fair, effective training. You don't need to act like a dictator to have the relationship you want with your dogs. Certainly taking them to an old-style trainer like the one you describe will not help the situation.

Give Alison a bell and she'll have a chat with you as to how she can help. That's definitely where I'd start.

Cherry Blossom · 31-12-2010 5:36am

EKRIUQ wrote: »

Do you know anything about training dog's not cuddly terriers or poodles. Big strong powerful dogs like Rottweilers or German Shepherds. Try holding back a rottweiler that's excited with a doggy treat.

Sorry, but :pac::pac::pac:

EGAR = http://www.egar.org/

adser53 · 31-12-2010 9:11am

EKRIUQ wrote: »

Do you know anything about training dog's not cuddly terriers or poodles. Big strong powerful dogs like Rottweilers or German Shepherds. Try holding back a rottweiler that's excited with a doggy treat.

I lol'd

And Shaz I'm afraid I've nothing to add on the anxiety but perhaps getting a good behaviourist out is the best thing to help with both dogs?Does your oldest bark and get worked up like that all the time or just at the vets?

And sorry, OT but, that wasn't you I passed yesterday near the estate entrance was it? My girlfriend and I had our 2 Akitas and we passed a lady with a beagle? (your youngest is a beagle, right?)

Qualitymark · 31-12-2010 9:16am

Dogs, like humans, are pack animals. They love interaction with their pack. They are very food-motivated.

So using treats and structured play to motivate your dogs to learn - whether they're Golden Retriever puppies or Rottweilers - is the way to go. The treats and the positive interaction give them a strong bond with their pack - you and yours.

Sternness and shouts and painful leashes simply confuse, grieve, anger and frighten dogs of any size and breed.

sionnaic · 31-12-2010 11:50am

Whispered wrote: »

you can mention names I think. Is it emmaline?

I can really, really recommend Emmaline! (Citizen Canine Ireland) She's great and uses positive methods only. Her techniques have made a huge difference to us and our nervous, fearful little rescue dog. Can't really describe just how much he's improved. And it really is totally about training the owner rather than the dog

Looking back with what I know now, we made so many mistakes with him. But can't undo the past unfortunately. Thankfully we're all doing much better now

We went to Emmaline off the back of a Boards recommendation actually. Best thing we ever did.

OP I would run a mile from anyone who advocates use of any pain-causing method...and choking your dog with a slip lead (just another "nicer" name for a choke chain) causes them pain. Would not touch such a "trainer" with a barge pole. There is no justification for it when there are other kinder methods which get the same result.

sionnaic · 31-12-2010 11:52am

EKRIUQ wrote: »

Do you know anything about training dog's not cuddly terriers or poodles. Big strong powerful dogs like Rottweilers or German Shepherds. Try holding back a rottweiler that's excited with a doggy treat.

Oh yeah I had to chuckle at this one...

:D:D

Er EKRIUQ...yeah she might know a thing or two about how to handle "strong powerful dogs"

sionnaic · 31-12-2010 12:17pm

SarahMs wrote: »

I think what made it easy for me was that I didn't think of them as 'dogs'. I thought of them as kids.

if you child did a wee on the floor, without you seeing, would you not tell them off simply because you didn't see? No you would show the child the wee, tell them it was 'bold' (or whatever chose word) and give them a punishment (put outside, no cuddles,take their fav toy away). Eventually the dog/child is going to realise ok every time I do a wee on the floor I get told off. Just because you didn't see the wee being done, doesn't mean it magically appeared it had to come from somewhere!!!!

(not sure who will agree with this but it worked on all 6 for me and only had to do it once, when they missed the paper, i simply put their nose in it for a few seconds... cue struggles and crys.... and pee on paper from there on in)

Sorry Sarah, but I can't agree with your methods at all...you may see your dogs as children but you have to realise that dogs do not think the same way humans do. As a trainer once told me, dogs think literally not laterally. That's why scolding only works if you actually catch them mid-action. Timing is crucial!

Scold mid-pee and dog understands peeing inside = unhappy human. Bring him immediately outside and put down and when dog continues peeing reward profusely with a treat happy happy voice and dog understands, peeing outside = the double whammy of yummy treat plus happiest human that ever lived
Scold 10 minutes after peeing incident when dog has gone back to his bed and dog understands lying in bed = unhappy human, and then ends up very confused as lying in bed is generally a good thing as far as the human is concerned.
Scold 10 minutes after peeing incident when dog has gone back to his bed, from which you drag him and stick his nose in a foul smelling mess and dog understrands human is randomly angry with me and I don't like this smell and I'm scared.

Dogs will not connect the punishment of having their noses stuck in their own mess (highly distressing for them btw hence the "struggles and crys"!!) with the fact that they shouldn't have created the mess in the first place, and so will be confused and afraid and that is not the way I'd want to have my new puppy.

Qualitymark I definitely do agree with your method!

Do Dogs Need Proper Training?

Comments