Is it true that...

Orizio · 18-12-2010 10:04PM #1

...to get into an Irish school your child has to be baptised and you have to offer proof to this effect? If it is true, how can someone outside the education system change this discriminatory and archaic practice?

Also, as an agnostic that has no interest in having his children recieve a religious or 'spritiual' education about non-existent Gods, what options do I have regarding primary schools?

pearljamfan · 18-12-2010 10:16PM

there are Educate Together schools in some areas,also gaelscoils are non denominational i think. the waiting list is always long though so its best to send in an application as soon as you can. my son is due to start big school next september and hes not christened/baptised , ive just sent in applications to loads of schools in my area and will find out in april/may which ones have accepted him. thats all i know!!

thebullkf · 18-12-2010 10:24PM

Orizio wrote: »

...to get into an Irish school your child has to be baptised and you have to offer proof to this effect? If it is true, how can someone outside the education system change this discriminatory and archaic practice?

Also, as an agnostic that has no interest in having his children recieve a religious or 'spritiual' education about non-existent Gods, what options do I have regarding primary schools?

how do you know they don't exist.

you say discriminatory....???... the majority disagree... 'tis a democracy after all. if everyone got their way... **shudders**

{not a bible basher btw}

Orizio · 18-12-2010 11:10PM

thebullkf wrote: »

how do you know they don't exist.

you say discriminatory....???... the majority disagree... 'tis a democracy after all. if everyone got their way... **shudders**

{not a bible basher btw}

No offence but this post makes little to no sense and has nothing to do with my original post regarding religion and primary schools. I don't know God doesn't exist, rather like I don't know Shiva and Thor don't exist, but I'm inclined to think they don't as this world, and a God's existence makes absolutely no sense whatsoever to me and seem entirely incompatible.

Orizio · 18-12-2010 11:15PM

pearljamfan wrote: »

there are Educate Together schools in some areas,also gaelscoils are non denominational i think. the waiting list is always long though so its best to send in an application as soon as you can. my son is due to start big school next september and hes not christened/baptised , ive just sent in applications to loads of schools in my area and will find out in april/may which ones have accepted him. thats all i know!!

There is no 'Educate Together' schools in my area nor 'gealscoils' (I think).

So essentially my (non) religious views mean the schools I can send my child to are extremely limited? This is completely unacceptable and illiberal - the moral and ethical upbringing of a child belongs purely to the parents, not strangers and their unproven beliefs. How does one go about changing this discriminatory situation?

Sardonicat · 18-12-2010 11:15PM

Orizio wrote: »

...to get into an Irish school your child has to be baptised and you have to offer proof to this effect? If it is true, how can someone outside the education system change this discriminatory and archaic practice?

Also, as an agnostic that has no interest in having his children recieve a religious or 'spritiual' education about non-existent Gods, what options do I have regarding primary schools?

No, this is not a condition to get into an Irish school. The majority of schools are single denominational though. From what I can gather, in an area where there are more kids then places at the local school they can ask to see proof of baptism, which they are entitled to do.
I went to a catholic school back in the 80s. There were a few protestants and atheisits there, even then. There are multi-denom schools, the "Educate Together" ones.There are no non-denom schools in ireland.

pearljamfan · 18-12-2010 11:20PM

just have to say, im not interested in a god, church, etc etc but i did go to a c of e school in england and was told all the bible stories as a child, i dont want my son in any way 'pushed' into a religion at a young age as i want him to decide for himself when hes old enough, BUT as a child, those stories are just stories, its not going to do any damage it might even just make him more aware of other cultures and understand more about people. your child will have many friends from all walks of life . if you dont want anything like that then home schooling is the way to go!

thebullkf · 18-12-2010 11:25PM

Orizio wrote: »

No offence but this post makes little to no sense and has nothing to do with my original post regarding religion and primary schools. I don't know God doesn't exist, rather like I don't know Shiva and Thor don't exist, but I'm inclined to think they don't as this world, and a God's existence makes absolutely no sense whatsoever to me and seem entirely incompatible.

none taken.

I'm not a Church going person. My family are all Baptised,can't remember if it was a condition of acceptance to school though.
I think its relevant in that you don't see the relevance of religion ,but millions here do,thus its on the curriculum and a basis (for entry) i don't find it discriminatory,you do. Just because you don't believe doesn't mean you can impose it on others (which you seeem to want to do) likewise i don't believe
religon should dictate everything either.
As it stands most people accept it,and get on with it.
If you feel that strongly about it-visit your local TD,contact the Dept. of Edu.

pearljamfan · 18-12-2010 11:25PM

Orizio wrote: »

How does one go about changing this discriminatory situation?

move out of ireland!? it is a catholic country.
get a facebook page and get people who think the same to join you?
i dont know, theres lots of things i dont like about this country but im here for lack of anything else to do about it.
whats important is raising your child in the home environment, having healthy relationships , good food, happy children, do what you can and pick your battles.

byhookorbycrook · 19-12-2010 12:25AM

Most Gaelscoileanna were set up by groups of parents. If you feel strongly about this issue, there is no reason you could not try to set up either a mutli-denom Gaelscoil or an Educate Together school.

Even multi-denoms have to teach some form of religious/ethics programme, so there is no such thing as a no mention of God/Gods school.

overmantle · 19-12-2010 03:44PM

Orizio wrote: »

...to get into an Irish school your child has to be baptised and you have to offer proof to this effect? If it is true, how can someone outside the education system change this discriminatory and archaic practice?

Also, as an agnostic that has no interest in having his children recieve a religious or 'spritiual' education about non-existent Gods, what options do I have regarding primary schools?

To be fair, Orizio, your view of ordinary schools seems way OTT. Most schools I know of require a Baptismal Cert for Children who wish to make Communion or Confirmation. That should not be an issue for you. The reality is, however, that in all schools I know of in Cork, there are children of all faiths (Christian and Non-Christian) as well as countless children from families who have absolutely no religious affiliation. It's not an issue for thousands of parents and if it isn't, then I don't see that it's a major problem. Your child doesn't need to take part in the religion classes, if that is your wish and certainly won't be alone in not receiving the sacraments.:)

#15 · 19-12-2010 08:04PM

Orizio wrote: »

There is no 'Educate Together' schools in my area nor 'gealscoils' (I think).

So essentially my (non) religious views mean the schools I can send my child to are extremely limited? This is completely unacceptable and illiberal - the moral and ethical upbringing of a child belongs purely to the parents, not strangers and their unproven beliefs. How does one go about changing this discriminatory situation?

It's tough to change. From what I have found out, Labour and Sinn Féin both seem to support the removal of the church from schools. I don't know about FG.

thebullkf wrote: »

I think its relevant in that you don't see the relevance of religion ,but millions here do,thus its on the curriculum and a basis (for entry) i don't find it discriminatory,you do.

Religion is not a part of the state curriculum, but there are religious programs that are taught in faith-ethos schools.

pearljamfan wrote: »

move out of ireland!? it is a catholic country.

Ireland is not a catholic country.

It is a democratic republic that aspires to treat all faiths equally.

It just so happens that the vast majority of the population are catholics. Even then, most of those catholics seem to be fairly lax in their adherence to church rules.

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Most Gaelscoileanna were set up by groups of parents. If you feel strongly about this issue, there is no reason you could not try to set up either a mutli-denom Gaelscoil or an Educate Together school.

Even multi-denoms have to teach some form of religious/ethics programme, so there is no such thing as a no mention of God/Gods school.

There is no reason for the state not to actually ensure that state schools are places where one faith is not promoted over others.

The whole set up your own schools argument is a bit tiresome. Not everyone has the time to undertake such projects.

overmantle wrote: »

It's not an issue for thousands of parents and if it isn't, then I don't see that it's a major problem.

Well, it is a major problem for him/her, and shouldn't be dismissed just because others are happy to accept the current farcical set-up.

overmantle · 19-12-2010 09:39PM

#15, the point I'm trying to make is that it need NOT be the major problem for Orizio that he seems to think it is. Mainstream schools are NOT what he seems to think they are. If Muslim children and children of no faith can (and do) attend ordinary primary schools in Ireland and are welcomed with sensitivity, then it IS possible for somebody like Orizio's child to attend his/her local school, to be welcome there, to thrive there, without having to take part in any religious element.

philologos · 19-12-2010 10:34PM

Orizio wrote: »

...to get into an Irish school your child has to be baptised and you have to offer proof to this effect? If it is true, how can someone outside the education system change this discriminatory and archaic practice?

OP: No you don't need to have your child baptised. But in RCC schools it will give your child priority. In CofI schools there are spaces left for CofI students, but also spaces left for non CofI. I remember in my class in primary school there were people who weren't baptised yet and of differing denominations.

mat cauthon · 20-12-2010 08:08PM

Jakkass wrote: »

OP: No you don't need to have your child baptised. But in RCC schools it will give your child priority. In CofI schools there are spaces left for CofI students, but also spaces left for non CofI. I remember in my class in primary school there were people who weren't baptised yet and of differing denominations.

It isnt such a biggie - unless you make it one. The schools religious programme is fairly harmless, and all in all a bit of religion wont hurt anyone - would you object to them being read the legends of Ancient Greece?

If you chill a bit, so will your child, and provision can be made if needs be during sacrement years.

D4RK ONION · 21-12-2010 04:09AM

mat cauthon wrote: »

It isnt such a biggie - unless you make it one. The schools religious programme is fairly harmless, and all in all a bit of religion wont hurt anyone - would you object to them being read the legends of Ancient Greece?

If you chill a bit, so will your child, and provision can be made if needs be during sacrement years.

This is a completely false argument. Indeed, the comparison you would actually draw would be "would you object to them being taught about how fantastic Zues is and how we should praise and love him for making us all and putting us on this earth?"

The problem for most Atheist parents however is not the religious 30 minutes a day. You can withdraw your child from that and no more is said about it. Religion (as it is meant to in a Catholic Ethos school) permeates the entire day. This is the main concern of such parents.

Pixied · 21-12-2010 05:50PM

I am in a similar position to the OP. The situation is not simple when trying to get a place for a child in a lot of schools.

All schools in my area area are catholic, there is a population boom and a baptismal certificate has to be produced with every application.

I have been told by all schools my child will not get any type of priority as she has not been baptised. She may get in, she may not. That's an awful lot of uncertainty, you basically can't plan for your child to get a school place somewhere in their own area. These schools have some non catholics but not a lot. We may have to move to resolve this issue somehow.

Anyway, that's my situation.

overmantle · 21-12-2010 06:21PM

Pixied, this may be the situation in some Dublin schools, where there is huge demand for places. It is NOT the situation in many other schools.

I'm definitely with Mat Cauthon on this one in that it is only as much of a biggie as you choose to make it or to perceive it. The analogy of Ancient Greece and Zeus may not have been the best one to use but thousands of existing non-Catholic parents, up and down the country, are thrilled with the schools they attend, even though the Denomination of those schools happens to be Catholic.

I wonder how familiar some of the scaremongerers really are with the regular primary school of 2010/11? To listen to some, one could be forgiven for thinking that bible bashers are pounding the corridors throughout the day. This is NOT the case. I have several friends (atheists, muslims, and other faiths) whose kids attend 'catholic' schools and although some may have had reservations beforehand, all are thrilled with the schools and none have any reservations now.Hth.

Pixied · 21-12-2010 07:51PM

I think you are misreading my perspective. I understand the analogy of storytelling, that was not my issue, however I might add it does depend on who tells that 'story' and how the 'story' is told. I also know some people who felt cheated and silly when they eventually found out these stories were but only that..

Regardless of anyones perspective widespread choice should exist. It will eventually come around but in my case it is needed now. I would settle for my child attending a catholic school if it meant she could stay in the same area. I understand that procedures are in place for children from other religious backgrounds or those with none.

My problem is not uncommon in Dublin, at least. I have had some people tell me 'just get them baptised', I can see their logic. However nothing will ever change if we all took that attitude. If there is a demand for mixed religious or secular schools or school places in existing catholic schools it should be accomodated . Maybe even through introducing a minimum quota system for non-catholics in catholic schools in areas such as mine. They are after all receiving funding from the state.

The situation for many parents I know is similar to mine, friends who have children in 2nd class now did not experience the same issues as me. Space in schools, even a few years ago, was not as intense. I have friends in other parts of the country and getting into their local school baptised or not is not as big an issue. This does not mean a genuine big problem does not exist in the capital or other places where the population is much bigger and possibly more diverse.

Just some thoughts, but who knows..for me this problem is a serious and practical one.

overmantle · 22-12-2010 12:25AM

Pixied wrote: »

I think you are misreading my perspective. I understand the analogy of storytelling, that was not my issue, however I might add it does depend on who tells that 'story' and how the 'story' is told. I also know some people who felt cheated and silly when they eventually found out these stories were but only that..

Regardless of anyones perspective widespread choice should exist. It will eventually come around but in my case it is needed now. I would settle for my child attending a catholic school if it meant she could stay in the same area. I understand that procedures are in place for children from other religious backgrounds or those with none.

My problem is not uncommon in Dublin, at least. I have had some people tell me 'just get them baptised', I can see their logic. However nothing will ever change if we all took that attitude. If there is a demand for mixed religious or secular schools or school places in existing catholic schools it should be accomodated . Maybe even through introducing a minimum quota system for non-catholics in catholic schools in areas such as mine. They are after all receiving funding from the state.

The situation for many parents I know is similar to mine, friends who have children in 2nd class now did not experience the same issues as me. Space in schools, even a few years ago, was not as intense. I have friends in other parts of the country and getting into their local school baptised or not is not as big an issue. This does not mean a genuine big problem does not exist in the capital or other places where the population is much bigger and possibly more diverse.

Just some thoughts, but who knows..for me this problem is a serious and practical one.

Hi Pixied. I did say that it may well be more of an issue in Dublin but seeing as the OP is clearly from Cork, it is not the issue that he seemed to think it was in Cork, or the rest of the country.

byhookorbycrook · 22-12-2010 12:27AM

The real issue is lack of school places, for any/no religions. There are simply not enough schools in many areas.Our school is always hugely oversubscribed, we turn away twice as many as we can accept.

#15 · 22-12-2010 01:55PM

overmantle wrote: »

I wonder how familiar some of the scaremongerers really are with the regular primary school of 2010/11?

Very familiar. I work in one.

It's catholic school, despite about 65% of the student body not being of the catholic faith.

It's outrageous, farcical, ridiculous, laughable and maddening all at once.

edit: not in Dublin either btw, this issue is certainly not confined to the capital.

#15 · 22-12-2010 01:59PM

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

The real issue is lack of school places, for any/no religions. There are simply not enough schools in many areas.Our school is always hugely oversubscribed, we turn away twice as many as we can accept.

The real issue is that in such a situation, that state schools can pick and choose on the basis of religion.

Should be first come, first served. It's unacceptable that a state-funded school is legally allowed to refuse a child, and accept another child at the same time, on the basis of religion.
It's backward and ignorant at best, sectarian at worst.

I have sympathy with oversubscribed schools, but they should be choosing their students in a fairer way.

gaeilgegrinds1 · 22-12-2010 05:52PM

Educate Together is the way if it's not religion you want. Parents getting together to contribute to their child's education.

overmantle · 22-12-2010 06:33PM

#15 wrote: »

Very familiar. I work in one.

It's catholic school, despite about 65% of the student body not being of the catholic faith.

It's outrageous, farcical, ridiculous, laughable and maddening all at once.

edit: not in Dublin either btw, this issue is certainly not confined to the capital.

#15, it happens that I'm very familiar also, as I've worked in several schools (all Catholic, as it happens), where I have had (and do have) dealings with parents and children of several faiths and none. It is NOT the issue that so many people try to portray it to be. There is a very healthy respect for all religions in the school and through multi-cultural days, for example, all children get to learn about and celebrate the traditions and beliefs of their classmates. It really is tiresome to listen to so much scaremongering which can and does give the impression to many parents looking for school places for their children.

It's a choice that parents make, based on the options available to them. My point is that it is wrong to dismiss a school that happens to be (in name at least), a Catholic school, even though it is completely inclusive and accommodating.

It is the quality (rather than the denomination) of the school itself that is what should determine the preferred choice of school. There are wonderful Catholic schools and some that are not as good. Similarly, there are very good ET schools and others that leave a LOT to be desired. For this reason, if I were the OP, I would consider an excellent, inclusive, accommodating Catholic school before another school that might appear to tick one box but may NOT tick many other boxes.

#15 · 22-12-2010 08:06PM

overmantle wrote: »

It is the quality (rather than the denomination) of the school itself that is what should determine the preferred choice of school. There are wonderful Catholic schools and some that are not as good. Similarly, there are very good ET schools and others that leave a LOT to be desired. For this reason, if I were the OP, I would consider an excellent, inclusive, accommodating Catholic school before another school that might appear to tick one box but may NOT tick many other boxes.

They are reasonable points and I don't disagree with you. However, I'm talking about the bigger picture here. It is bizarre that in the 21st century, state-funded schools are
(i) 93% catholic - this is nothing more than a historical hangover
(ii) allowed discriminate on religious grounds during the enrolment process

Religious discrimination has no place in the public (ie state-funded) sphere. It's unacceptable in health, justice, taxation, etc. There is no reason why education should be an exception.

I'm not disputing your point that catholic schools can be inclusive - but their very nature ensures that one faith is revered above others.

#15 · 22-12-2010 08:08PM

gaeilgegrinds1 wrote: »

Educate Together is the way if it's not religion you want. Parents getting together to contribute to their child's education.

Non-denominational, neutral education - funded by busy parents.

Denominational, biased education - funded by the state.

It's bizarre. This country has its priorities backwards.

BengaLover · 22-12-2010 08:10PM

Orizio wrote: »

...to get into an Irish school your child has to be baptised and you have to offer proof to this effect? If it is true, how can someone outside the education system change this discriminatory and archaic practice?

Also, as an agnostic that has no interest in having his children recieve a religious or 'spritiual' education about non-existent Gods, what options do I have regarding primary schools?

Not to my knowledge, having 3 children ages 16,13,7 and none baptized.
The only thing scholls have ever insisted on having was the birth cert and pps number.

byhookorbycrook · 22-12-2010 08:51PM

#15 wrote: »

The real issue is that in such a situation, that state schools can pick and choose on the basis of religion.

Should be first come, first served..

We do go first come ,first served,after siblings.Religion does not come into it.I think some people like to overplay the religion issue and see ET schools as the answer.It's worth stating again ,that every primary school in Ireland has some form of religious education.So, for true non-denom education, a new model must be set up.

overmantle · 22-12-2010 10:53PM

BengaLover wrote: »

Not to my knowledge, having 3 children ages 16,13,7 and none baptized.
The only thing scholls have ever insisted on having was the birth cert and pps number.

Glad to see an example of somebody referring back to the OP's question and reassuring Orizio that, NO, in all probability, like Benalover, he will not have to produce a Baptismal Cert to enrol his child.

D4RK ONION · 23-12-2010 04:27AM

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

We do go first come ,first served,after siblings.Religion does not come into it.I think some people like to overplay the religion issue and see ET schools as the answer.It's worth stating again ,that every primary school in Ireland has some form of religious education.So, for true non-denom education, a new model must be set up.

Indeed, but I think the multi-denom nature of ET schools is the way to go. While some of the more extremist Atheist/Secular parents might prefer a 0 religion classroom, I (an atheist myself) think that the multi-denominational approach is the best of all worlds. Kids are taught to understand every religion (and lack of) and to respect their beliefs but not that one is greater than the other.

On top of that religion isn't all they put into that 30 minutes a day, there is also morality and environmental issues as well, both important subjects vital to educate a well rounded child.

TL;DR
IMO, Multi-denom > non-denom

Is it true that...

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