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The Status Of Irish.

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Comments

  • #692
    cyclopath2001
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭cyclopath2001


    Cú Giobach wrote: »
    The majority of people want to see Irish (apparently) to remain compulsory up to JC
    When was a referendum held?
    Cú Giobach wrote: »
    ..... and you just come up with the same old stuff you have been coming up for months now, over and over and over again.
    You are like the proverbial dog with a bone.
    The majority of the people don't speak Irish and don't try to...it's a major scandal that we're dumping money into a black hole of teaching Irish in those circumstances. It's not unexpected that Irish lobbyists feel threatened and try to suppress any rational criticism of this waste.

    We could achieve tha same effect as what we have today (at enormous cost), by giving English-speaking children monthly lessons on 'appreciating our Irish-speaking past'.


  • #693
    Cú Giobach
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,772 ✭✭✭Cú Giobach


    Dannyboy83 wrote: »
    You agree it should be optional at Leaving Cert level?
    Fair play.
    I've stated that quite a few times on this board, and it's been my stance for about 30 years. ;)


  • #694
    Cú Giobach
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,772 ✭✭✭Cú Giobach


    cyclopath2001 wrote: »
    When was a referendum held?

    The majority of the people don't speak Irish and don't try to...it's a major scandal that we're dumping money into a black hole of teaching Irish in those circumstances. It's not unexpected that Irish lobbyists feel threatened and try to suppress any rational criticism of this waste.

    We could achieve tha same effect as what we have today (at enormous cost), by giving English-speaking children monthly lessons on 'appreciating our Irish-speaking past'.
    :rolleyes:


  • #695
    cyclopath2001
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭cyclopath2001


    Cú Giobach wrote: »
    I've stated that quite a few times on this board, and it's been my stance for about 30 years. ;)
    What a pity you've gained no wisdom in that time.

    After 30 years, what has been gained by forcing English-speakers to learn Irish up to JC level?


  • #696
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    Dannyboy83 wrote: »

    I don't see a major problem with it being compulsory until JC, at least until the effects of making it optional at LC level can be assessed. It will lead to a higher standard among those who actually wish to speak it, as Marieinbad's post featuring the LC results showed.


    Marieninbads post showed that Irish(compulsory) did better than French(optional)
    So can you back up your claim that making Irish optional will somehow make people better at it?

    A) That offer is not on the table now, Brian Hayes is proposing optional Irish at LC level only
    B) Optional at LC level is a good enough compromise for now imho. Reform takes time.



    Since he started this thread, I would like Deise go Deo to acknowledge that he will accept the will of the majority, and will accept Brian Hayes decision when it is implemented, rather than continue along the dictatorial/extremist path and being subservient to the demands of CnaG.:)

    Well first off, what kind of debate is this, are you even trying to be reasonable anymore? I am neither dictatorial or extremist, and if you continue down this line of unnecessary aggression I will be reporting you.

    Secondly, Can you provide a link to where Brian Hayes has said that this is what he intends to do, As far as I am aware FG is still drawing up its new Education policy.


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  • #697
    cyclopath2001
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭cyclopath2001


    deise go deo wrote: »
    I am neither dictatorial or extremist
    You are dictatorial in that you support laws forcing people to speak Irish. You are extremist in that you support an organisation whose main aim is to replace all English-speaking with Irish-speaking throughout Ireland.


  • #698
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    cyclopath2001 wrote: »
    You are dictatorial in that you support laws forcing people to speak Irish. You are extremist in that you support an organisation whose main aim is to replace all English-speaking with Irish-speaking throughout Ireland.

    The problem with the education system is that people dont speak Irish enough in class, I am no supporter of the current system. The laws you speak of were enacted by a democratically elected government, who had support of the Irish language as one of their policies, Could it be that they actually had a mandate to support Irish:eek:

    Have you gone onto CnaG's website, they and I have no desire to replace English. Bi-lingualism is what is aimed for.


  • #699
    Cú Giobach
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,772 ✭✭✭Cú Giobach


    cyclopath2001 wrote: »
    What a pity you've gained no wisdom in that time.

    After 30 years, what has been gained by forcing English-speakers to learn Irish up to JC level?
    :rolleyes:


  • #700
    cyclopath2001
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭cyclopath2001


    deise go deo wrote: »
    The problem with the education system is that people dont speak Irish enough in class,
    Because they don't want to.
    deise go deo wrote: »
    I am no supporter of the current system. The laws you speak of were enacted by a democratically elected government, who had support of the Irish language as one of their policies, Could it be that they actually had a mandate to support Irish:eek:
    FF gave into CnAG's lobbying to win some votes. The people did not get consulted.
    deise go deo wrote: »
    Have you gone onto CnaG's website, they and I have no desire to replace English. Bi-lingualism is what is aimed for.
    Yes.

    from CnaG's website:
    Conradh na Gaeilge is the democratic forum for the Irish-speaking community and promotes the language throughout the whole of Ireland and around the world. Is main aim is to reinstate the Irish language as the common tongue of Ireland.
    'The common tongue': singular, no mention of English or of bi-lingualism.


  • #701
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    cyclopath2001 wrote: »
    Because they don't want to.

    FF gave into CnAG's lobbying to win some votes. The people did not get consulted.


    If people dident want it then how how would FG get votes by caving into CnaG? Surely there would be more votes in Not caving into CnaG? No?


    Yes.
    'The common tongue': singular, no mention of English or of bi-lingualism.

    Tell you what, next time I meet Juilan De Spainn, Their secretary general, Ill ask him about it for you.;)

    CnaG is for Bi-Lingualism.

    I know I certainly am.


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  • #702
    cyclopath2001
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭cyclopath2001


    deise go deo wrote: »
    If people dident want it then how how would FG get votes by caving into CnaG? Surely there would be more votes in Not caving into CnaG? No?
    Most people don't know about the huge costs of the OLA, and it was signed-off during the Celtic Tiger years when money was 'no problem'. As regards FG's proposal, they're testing the water.
    deise go deo wrote: »
    CnaG is for Bi-Lingualism.
    Not as an aim. Read their statement.


  • #703
    Dannyboy83
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Dannyboy83


    Cú Giobach wrote: »
    The majority of people want to see Irish (apparently) to remain compulsory up to JC
    Cú Giobach wrote: »
    Just accept the will of the majority won't you.
    deise go deo wrote: »
    Marieninbads post showed that Irish(compulsory) did better than French(optional)
    So can you back up your claim that making Irish optional will somehow make people better at it?

    I don't need to back anything up*
    See Cú Giobach's statements above.
    He is Pro-Irish and he is prepared to accept the will of the majority.

    The will of the majority is that Irish be optional at LC Level.
    Are you prepared to accept the will of the majority?

    Yes or No?




    *You must have "missed" the Japanese results:rolleyes:
    Well first off, what kind of debate is this, are you even trying to be reasonable anymore? I am neither dictatorial or extremist, and if you continue down this line of unnecessary aggression I will be reporting you.

    My response to this, will be based on your response to my above question.

    Feel free to report me.
    I am not being aggressive toward you.
    I am challenging you to answer a question.

    Secondly, Can you provide a link to where Brian Hayes has said that this is what he intends to do, As far as I am aware FG is still drawing up its new Education policy.
    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0415/1224268372279.html
    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/education/2010/1102/1224282473635.html (See POINT 4)


  • #704
    Focalbhach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 459 ✭✭Focalbhach


    Dannyboy83 wrote: »
    I don't need to back anything up*

    *You must have "missed" the Japanese results:rolleyes:
    Dannyboy83 wrote: »
    On the contrary - do not ignore [the 143 Japanese results] at all.
    That's crucial to the debate.

    People who want to do the subject are excelling in it.

    Nice work, Thank you

    Not to seem like I'm getting on your case - I actually think optional post-JC is fair enough - but those Japanese results are conclusive of nothing. At a guess, I'd say that the 143 people who sat Japanese for the LC (and did well) are people who speak Japanese at home. In other words, they maximised their situation for CAO points (entirely legitimately), but it's a different situation to someone learning Irish/French/German as a second language.

    I'd be interested to see if there are figures anywhere for the number of Japanese speakers in Ireland (ideally by age bracket) to confirm/deny the hypothesis.


  • #705
    Dannyboy83
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Dannyboy83


    Leto wrote: »
    Not to seem like I'm getting on your case - I actually think optional post-JC is fair enough - but those Japanese results are conclusive of nothing. At a guess, I'd say that the 143 people who sat Japanese for the LC (and did well) are people who speak Japanese at home. In other words, they maximised their situation for CAO points (entirely legitimately), but it's a different situation to someone learning Irish/French/German as a second language.

    I'd be interested to see if there are figures anywhere for the number of Japanese speakers in Ireland (ideally by age bracket) to confirm/deny the hypothesis.

    I believe you are correct in your assertion, it's highly probable, but you are missing the crux of the point.

    What would the outcome have been if they had been compelled to do Irish, instead of Japanese?

    No one can say for certain, but it's equally reasonable to assume they can (and did) perform better at Japanese, than at Irish.
    What was to be gained by forcing Irish on them? Nothing.
    So compulsion makes zero sense, is of zero benefit to anyone, merely a cost and a barrier.

    Those who want to do it, will do it anyway.
    Those who don't want to, will do something they want to do - and excel in it.


  • #706
    Focalbhach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 459 ✭✭Focalbhach


    Dannyboy83 wrote: »
    I believe you are correct in your assertion, it's highly probable, but you are missing the crux of the point.

    What would the outcome have been if they had been compelled to do Irish, instead of Japanese?

    No one can say for certain, but it's equally reasonable to assume they can (and did) perform better at Japanese, than at Irish.
    What was to be gained by forcing Irish on them? Nothing.
    So compulsion makes zero sense, is of zero benefit to anyone, merely a cost and a barrier.

    Those who want to do it, will do it anyway.
    Those who don't want to, will do something they want to do - and excel in it.

    That doesn't follow. Your contention (bolded and underlined :p) was that "People who want to do the subject are excelling in it." If the people excelling in Japanese do so because they are native speakers it's simply not comparable to someone learning a second language, whether they want to or not. Apples an' oranges.


  • #707
    Lord TSC
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 42,994 Mod ✭✭✭✭Lord TSC


    The will of the majority is that Irish be optional at LC Level.
    Are you prepared to accept the will of the majority?

    Yes or No?

    Given he still continues to ignore that the link he posted even shows that, I doubt you'll get a straight answer...


  • #708
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    Teamshadowclan wrote: »
    Given he still continues to ignore that the link he posted even shows that, I doub you'll get a straight answer...

    If FG have this as part of their education policy and (as seams most likely) form the next government, then I can only assume that they will implement the policy and make Irish an Optional subject.

    If this happens I can only hope they dont regret it in 20 years time, and I certainly hope that they reform the curriculum to give Irish the best chance as an optional subject.

    However, until such time as it is shown that making Irish optional is better than reforming the curriculum then I will not agree with making Irish an optional subject. As I have made clear I believe that the best way forward for irish in the Education system is the proposal put forward by CnaG.

    This is my opinion and I am entitled to it.


  • #709
    Lord TSC
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 42,994 Mod ✭✭✭✭Lord TSC


    Not saying otherwise. You have your opinion. I have mine. I just find it funny that for 35+ pages, you sang the praise of that survey and held it as proof positive that the majority wanted Irish to be compulusory, and when it was shown it showed the opposite, you ignored it for a few pages and then tried to dismiss it's importance.


  • #710
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    Teamshadowclan wrote: »
    Not saying otherwise. You have your opinion. I have mine. I just find it funny that for 35+ pages, you sang the praise of that survey and held it as proof positive that the majority wanted Irish to be compulusory, and when it was shown it showed the opposite, you ignored it for a few pages and then tried to dismiss it's importance.

    What survey is this?


  • #711
    Dannyboy83
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Dannyboy83


    Leto wrote: »
    That doesn't follow. Your contention (bolded and underlined :p) was that "People who want to do the subject are excelling in it." If the people excelling in Japanese do so because they are native speakers it's simply not comparable to someone learning a second language, whether they want to or not. Apples an' oranges.

    Where did I distinguish between native and non-native speakers in the original quote?:confused:
    I didn't.

    So my contention does indeed follow.
    Please see my previous post, You are missing the crux of the argument.

    I didn't distinguish wheter they are native speakers or not.
    I said "People who choose to do the subject excel in it".

    I have no figures on how many are native speakers or not, so it would be mere speculation to try a correlation (as you did. Again, I did not)

    Wheter they are a native speaker or not is irrelevant.
    i) They are choosing to do that subject.
    ii) They are not losing this subject at the expense of Irish (opportunity cost)


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  • #712
    Dannyboy83
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Dannyboy83


    deise go deo wrote: »
    What survey is this?

    ROFLCOPTERS!!:D:D:D:D:D

    deise go deo wrote: »
    If FG have this as part of their education policy and (as seams most likely) form the next government, then I can only assume that they will implement the policy and make Irish an Optional subject.

    If this happens I can only hope they dont regret it in 20 years time, and I certainly hope that they reform the curriculum to give Irish the best chance as an optional subject.

    However, until such time as it is shown that making Irish optional is better than reforming the curriculum then I will not agree with making Irish an optional subject. As I have made clear I believe that the best way forward for irish in the Education system is the proposal put forward by CnaG.

    This is my opinion and I am entitled to it.

    Cú Giobach wrote: »
    The majority of people want to see Irish (apparently) to remain compulsory up to JC
    Cú Giobach wrote: »
    Just accept the will of the majority won't you.

    I am neither dictatorial or extremist, and if you continue down this line of unnecessary aggression I will be reporting you.

    See Cú Giobach's statements above.
    He is Pro-Irish and he is prepared to accept the will of the majority.

    The will of the majority is that Irish be optional at LC Level.
    Are you prepared to accept the will of the majority?

    Yes or No?


  • #713
    Focalbhach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 459 ✭✭Focalbhach


    Dannyboy83 wrote: »
    Wheter they are a native speaker or not is irrelevant.
    i) They are choosing to do that subject.

    Why are they choosing to do that subject?

    Is it because they want to learn it?
    Or is it because they are already fluent and want to gain the maximum CAO points from that fluency?

    If the former, then you're right, it's comparable to people who want to learn Irish doing better than people who don't. If the latter, it is not.

    In this case, I suggest that the latter is closer to the truth. A hunch, but a reasonable one.


  • #714
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    Dannyboy83 wrote: »
    ROFLCOPTERS!!:D:D:D:D:D


    He said that I have sang the praises of a survey for 35 pages, I would like to know what survey as I never linked to a survey in the OP, If its the survey that letto put forward about 10 pages back then that was the first time i saw that survey.

    So I ask which particular survey have i sang the praises of for 35 pages?


  • #715
    Dannyboy83
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Dannyboy83


    Leto wrote: »
    Why are they choosing to do that subject?

    Is it because they want to learn it?
    Or is it because they are already fluent and want to gain the maximum CAO points from that fluency?

    If the former, then you're right, it's comparable to people who want to learn Irish doing better than people who don't. If the latter, it is not.
    Why is that relevant?

    A) They choose to do it and they excel
    B) In subjects where people are compelled - they, on average, perform worse - this includes English

    We don't have stats to prove either scenario.

    But are you suggesting there are no native speakers studying Irish?
    Assuming there are, should they be excluded from Learning Irish - just in case they are doing it for points?

    Sorry, but that's plain madness.
    The net result of that is people cannot do subjects they choose to do, entirely!

    Legislating against learning to balance out the points system doesn't work.
    If we need to fix the points system, then we need to fix the points system.

    The bottom line is this.
    People are choosing to do that subject, and, on average, are outperforming those who are compelled to do other subjects.
    In this case, I suggest that the latter is closer to the truth. A hunch, but a reasonable one.

    Your argument is flawed in that the hypothesis suggests the approximately 55,000 people, who are native English speakers, should be excelling in that subject relative to all others.
    That is not the case, as the statistics prove.

    There is nothing radical in this thinking, Confucious said it a long, long time ago
    "Give a person a job they love and they'll never work a day in their life"
    (Deise, please don't try to disingenuously misinterpret that quote - ask me to explain it if you don't understand it)


  • #716
    Dannyboy83
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Dannyboy83


    deise go deo wrote:
    What survey is this?
    deise go deo wrote: »
    He said that I have sang the praises of a survey for 35 pages, I would like to know what survey as I never linked to a survey in the OP, If its the survey that letto put forward about 10 pages back then that was the first time i saw that survey.

    So I ask which particular survey have i sang the praises of for 35 pages?

    Might have been this one:
    http://www.erc.ie/documents/views_of_irish_public_on_education_2004_survey.pdf

    Remember, you have been citing this report as evidence that Irish people would like Irish to remain a compulsory subject when it clearly states they want it optional.
    deise go deo wrote:
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=69580423&postcount=615
    One of the central parts of this discussion is weather or not the majority are open to learning Irish, That is directly referenced in the Survey, It shows clearly that by far the vast majority want Irish to continue with the same emphasis in the Education system with a large minority wanting greater emphasis.
    Tis feckin odd how you forgot dat now like boy.:)






    p.s.
    deise go deo wrote: »
    If FG have this as part of their education policy and (as seams most likely) form the next government, then I can only assume that they will implement the policy and make Irish an Optional subject.

    If this happens I can only hope they dont regret it in 20 years time, and I certainly hope that they reform the curriculum to give Irish the best chance as an optional subject.

    However, until such time as it is shown that making Irish optional is better than reforming the curriculum then I will not agree with making Irish an optional subject. As I have made clear I believe that the best way forward for irish in the Education system is the proposal put forward by CnaG.

    This is my opinion and I am entitled to it.

    Cú Giobach wrote: »
    The majority of people want to see Irish (apparently) to remain compulsory up to JC
    Cú Giobach wrote: »
    Just accept the will of the majority won't you.

    I am neither dictatorial or extremist, and if you continue down this line of unnecessary aggression I will be reporting you.

    See Cú Giobach's statements above.
    He is Pro-Irish and he is prepared to accept the will of the majority.

    The will of the majority is that Irish be optional at LC Level.
    Are you prepared to accept the will of the majority?

    Yes or No?


  • #717
    Focalbhach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 459 ✭✭Focalbhach


    Dannyboy83 wrote: »
    Why is that relevant?

    A) They choose to do it and they excel

    They excel because they're sitting a test for second-language learners as native speakers. Think of a French teenager moving to Ireland at 17 and sitting the LC. I can't imagine too many problems.

    Dannyboy83 wrote: »
    But are you suggesting there are no native speakers studying Irish?
    Assuming there are, should they be excluded from Learning Irish - just in case they are doing it for points?

    Sorry, but that's plain madness.
    The net result of that is people cannot do subjects they choose to do, entirely!

    Legislating against learning to balance out the points system doesn't work.
    If we need to fix the points system, then we need to fix the points system.

    The points system does need to be changed, but that's another thread.

    As I made clear in my first post on this topic, should you care to read it again, I have no objection to the practice we're discussing. I do have an objection to misrepresenting the statistics.
    Dannyboy83 wrote: »
    The bottom line is this.
    People are choosing to do that subject, and, on average, are outperforming those who are compelled to do other subjects.

    Why? Because they're more interested in learning it as a second language? Presumably that's the point you want to make in relation to Irish. If not, I could do with a clarification.
    Dannyboy83 wrote: »
    Your argument is flawed in that the hypothesis suggests the approximately 55,000 people, who are native English speakers, should be excelling in that subject relative to all others.

    The English LC exam is qualitatively different to 'second-language' LC exams. Think Macbeth and textual comparisons versus comprehension items and aural exams.

    What do you think I'm trying to say here??


  • #718
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    Dannyboy83 wrote: »
    Might have been this one:
    http://www.erc.ie/documents/views_of_irish_public_on_education_2004_survey.pdf

    Remember, you have been citing this report as evidence that Irish people would like Irish to remain a compulsory subject when it clearly states they want it optional.


    Tis feckin odd how you forgot dat now like boy.:)

    How can you accuse me of singing that surveys praise for 35 pages when I dident introduce it, it was only introduced about 10 pages ago and when it was introduced I said:

    that on the point about the majority wanting the emphasis to stay the same or increase it seamed to suggest that people wanted Irish to remain compulsory
    but in the part about the importance people would attach to a proposal being put forward to make Irish an optional the majority put it as important or very important, which seamed to favor Irish being made optional,

    How this assessment that I gave in response to cyclopath shortly after letto introduced the survey equates to singing its praise for 35 pages then changing my tune I cannot see.


  • #719
    Dannyboy83
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Dannyboy83


    Leto wrote: »
    They excel because they're sitting a test for second-language learners as native speakers. Think of a French teenager moving to Ireland at 17 and sitting the LC. I can't imagine too many problems.

    Let me clarify for you - I don't deny that, nor have I denied that.
    We don't have stats to prove case x or y, but it's a reasonable assumption.

    What I'm saying is - Native speaker or otherwise, the alternative would be to force this person to do Irish.
    To apply this to an Irish speaker, you are suggesting that a native Irish speaker be prevented from sitting Irish - in case they are doing it for points.

    Is this to achieve equality?
    Not being a smart ass, I don't understand your rationale.



    The points system does need to be changed, but that's another thread.
    Indeed.

    As I made clear in my first post on this topic, should you care to read it again, I have no objection to the practice we're discussing. I do have an objection to misrepresenting the statistics.

    I think you are trying to credit me with an argument I never made.
    I never introduced the condition of native speakers, you did.

    Here is the exact statement I made:
    Dannyboy83 wrote:
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=69531325&postcount=511
    On the contrary - do not ignore it at all.
    That's crucial to the debate.

    People who want to do the subject are excelling in it.

    Nice work, Thank you

    Are you denying this?
    Do you deny that, native speaker or otherwise, the stats show that people who choose to do Japanese are excelling in it?

    Disagreeing with something else is a strawman argument.
    I would really love to hear how I have misrepresented the statisics, do please elaborate.

    Why? Because they're more interested in learning it as a second language? Presumably that's the point you want to make in relation to Irish. If not, I could do with a clarification.
    I have no idea, nor does it concern me.
    As I said, I have nothing against Irish.
    I want to see people doing subjects based on free will.

    If people choose to do Irish, I believe they will excel in it (native speakers and non-native). Those who don't want to do it won't be holding back the class, they'll be doing something they happen to enjoy instead, be it Chinese or Woodworking.
    The English LC exam is qualitatively different to 'second-language' LC exams. Think Macbeth and textual comparisons versus comprehension items and aural exams.
    Granted, but it doesn't change the fact that your hypothesis was flawed.


  • #720
    cyclopath2001
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭cyclopath2001


    deise go deo wrote: »
    How can you accuse me of singing that surveys praise for 35 pages when I dident introduce it, it was only introduced about 10 pages ago and when it was introduced I said:
    I think CnaG propaganda is your principal source of information?
    deise go deo wrote: »
    that on the point about the majority wanting the emphasis to stay the same or increase it seamed to suggest that people wanted Irish to remain compulsory
    The question was not one of compulsory or not. Emphisis is more about the time devoted to the subject. The answers are unreliable as most of the respondents were not in education and would have no idea what the current situation was and, in any case, taking a decision that did not affect themselve personally.


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  • #721
    Dannyboy83
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Dannyboy83


    deise go deo wrote: »
    How can you accuse me of singing that surveys praise for 35 pages

    erm...I think you've got me confused with someone else.

    Could you stop cowering from my question and give me an answer please?

    It's here, just in case you have more "memory problems"
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=69611251&postcount=712


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