John O'Conor's comments on Adult Music Students

funky penguin · 07-07-2010 06:34PM

I understand what you mean by 'professionally', ie. maestro pianists who travel the world playing mostly art music in concert halls. And in all honesty, thats what O'Connor is referring to.

However, its important to point out that there are ALOT of people who play piano professionally in other environments, such as lounge pianists, accompanists, players in pop bands, jazz players, teachers, lecturers etc. I realise that it may be part-time for most, but if its paid, its professional.

Maestoso · 11-07-2010 02:41PM

Usually high-profile people are responsible for crushing children's dreams but this guy has put his own slant on it and is going for the "crushing adults' dreams" scene. He's possibly the best in the business to do it!

Undergod · 15-07-2010 06:53PM

The purpose of a conservatoire is to train musicians to pursue professional careers in the classical music sphere. The Royal Irish Academy of Music is a conservatoire. That's why it doesn't accept adult beginners; basically no adult beginners wil end up with a career in classical music.

There's ****loads of other options for adults to take up music, why worry that one of the more expensive ones is closed?

funky penguin · 15-07-2010 07:25PM

Undergod wrote: »

The purpose of a conservatoire is to train musicians to pursue professional careers in the classical music sphere. The Royal Irish Academy of Music is a conservatoire. That's why it doesn't accept adult beginners; basically no adult beginners wil end up with a career in classical music.

They certainly won't if their attitude is like that.

Undergod · 15-07-2010 11:17PM

They almost certainly won't regardless of attitude. I'm not saying they can't make great musicians, or become professionals, or anything of the sort, but it's just overwhelmingly uncommon for adult beginners to become professional orchestral musicians.

Not all schools accept adults seeking to do the leaving cert; as far as I understand FÁS will usually take younger applicants for apprenticeships and vocational training. Universities won't take people who cannot speak English to do undergraduate English degrees. This is no different.

TheBandit · 16-07-2010 09:22AM

Undergod wrote: »

Not all schools accept adults seeking to do the leaving cert; as far as I understand FÁS will usually take younger applicants for apprenticeships and vocational training. Universities won't take people who cannot speak English to do undergraduate English degrees. This is no different.

Excluding applicants on skills and age are two very different things

funky penguin · 16-07-2010 11:02AM

Undergod wrote: »

They almost certainly won't regardless of attitude. I'm not saying they can't make great musicians, or become professionals, or anything of the sort, but it's just overwhelmingly uncommon for adult beginners to become professional orchestral musicians.

In Wexford, there is an orchestra called The Gateway, which is strictly beginners, with a smattering of experienced heads from the Wexford Symphony Orchestra (or whatever its called). They play once a year. Linda Buckley even composed a piece for them 'Osmosis for Orchestra'.

The purpose of it is to let newbies experience western art music regardless of experience, with the hopes of them becoming good enough to feed it's 'older brother' orchestra.

Yes, the sound may not be NSO quality, but that's not the point. In my opinion, the best thing about it is it's ability to discredit the elitist stigma attached to 'classical' music.

Look, I realise I may seem like I'm giving out to you, I just honestly believe if you work hard enough at anything it can be done.

I don't want to cite my brother again, but he's honestly a great example. Started when he was 19, now 23 with a BMus in performance, deciding whether to work on repertoire for the year or do an MA in Performance.

Best thing imo is that directly after his final year performance he had no time to celebrate, just eat and go to a huge birthday party somewhere in Kilbeggan for a paid gig in a String Quartet.

Its purely down to his attitude. As I type he is literally next door to me practicing a major scale on the cello, one that he has been playing over and over for the last 10 minutes and will continue to do for another 20 I'd say. Then technique. Then Pieces. It goes on and on.

Those first few months were torture....like a cat having an orgasm and drowning at the same time....

Rivermusic · 19-07-2010 02:34PM

The RIAM in general don't look upon anyone other than a very young child as worth teaching and that is because they are only interested in producing concert level performers for the classical stage, period. They have no interest in the world of music outside that area and I suppose in that regard they are correct in their approach.

I am a self taught drummer since my teens and I started piano when I was 25/26 years old and have been working as a professional musician ever since. More recently in the past few years I fell in love with the idea of playing the cello (why I don't know); decided to take up the cello and am currently studying in the College of Music as a "mature adult". Hopefully I have every intention of reaching a high standard. What would the view of the RIAM and John O'Connor be of me I wonder?

Sandwlch · 19-07-2010 06:21PM

Rivermusic wrote: »

The RIAM in general don't look upon anyone other than a very young child as worth teaching and that is because they are only interested in producing concert level performers for the classical stage, period.

Could anyone confirm the fruits of this policy and list all the concert pianists that have come out of the RIAM? If its too long, please list in seperate posts sorted alphabetically. Thanks.

rums08 · 09-10-2010 07:49PM

FranzL wrote: »

Others have indicated how they got on well after starting late, so here's my story:
Decided at 17 that I would like to play piano.
Took first lessons but avoided exams for many years. Just enjoyed trying to play easier pieces, classical and popular. Continued with lessons.
At 30 passed first exam (T.C.L. grade 8)
At 31 passed ALCM diploma and ATCL teaching diploma.
At 36 passed LTCL teaching diploma.
Have taught at 2 music schools.
Still enjoy playing a wide selection of music.
I was fortunate in getting teachers who taught music, not just piano, and who always gave encouragement.

Hi there,
can you please let me know where to get some good classes in piano? I am very eager to start learning and preparing for my exams and I am 30!

evolving_doors · 14-10-2010 08:47PM

rums08 wrote: »

Hi there,
can you please let me know where to get some good classes in piano? I am very eager to start learning and preparing for my exams and I am 30!

Have you tried the Royal Irish Academy of Music!!..only kidding..try griffith college/leinster school of music..

Silent Shrill · 27-10-2010 11:04AM

ana ng wrote: »

He is right in the sense that it is highly unlikely that you could become a professional practising pianist (don't know about other instruments) after starting that late. Not impossible, but very highly unlikely. Hence the RIAM (whose notional function is in producing these sort of musicians) need to have that restriction. I dont mean a teacher here, i specifically mean someone making a living primarily through performance.

However he is wrong to make a silly general comment along the lines of (quoting OP) 'adults should not really bother with the piano'. Enough of the comments here show the satisfiaction and enjoyment to be gotten from learning piano. I have taught some great adult students in the past, most were really rewarding to work with, and achieved fantastic things with there playing.

Ultimately His take is real 'ivory tower' and eilitist.

Read with interest this thread,.......and thought the above quote was a good one to use.
Even though we all know Conner is a twat as far as communication is concerned.........his comment on the adult part is also twattish......so in my book he's a complete twat. It's the like of him that restricts our wishes/wants to do something new........and as a communicator to people he should be dismissed. I can disrespect him, because he has disrespected adults. He should stick to what he is good at.......and by the sounds of it, that is playing the piano, although I'm positive he is not the best....even if he thinks he is.
He, I'm afraid, is the stereo-typical elitist that has the classical arts where it is today.......funding being cut, and no interest by the majority.....yes, the majority!....and I'm sure many of you will argue the toss over that. He, and his minions, have been keeping the classical arts in the hands of the elitist for generations........many of the "normal" citizens never get the opportunity to see classical arts, "we dont want that riff-raff here" would be a typical response by a normal working-class person with an "off-the-cuff" smile.
Then you get people like the above quoted poster that agrees with Conner's remarks..........yet teaches adults!........double standards or what! If I was learning piano as an adult with the op I would not continue with them.........if that's your attitude I'll take my money elsewhere......and you know what........I'd make sure that my child is not taught by Conner, seen by Conner, or have anything to do with Conner, or any "Connerists". We as people can show our distaste by snubbing anything that Conner has a finger in.........dont give your money in his direction.........it seems to be the only thing that the elitists in this world understand.........hit them in their pocket. However should anyone want to continue praising him and throwing money at him.....you deserve what you get.

evolving_doors · 27-10-2010 12:52PM

A lot of this ranting against one person is rather pointless,

I don't know why silent shrill is so put out,,,what does he expect from JOC!!! he is what he is and ana ng was just pointing this out, get over it..

I've taught a good few adults myself and by and large alot of them were more enamored with the thoughts of playing the piano rather than actually setting aside a few hours a week to practice (not to mention holding down a full time job with family etc..),,very few could actually put in the hours required,,, it's very easy for you to say "oh well you musn't have been a good teacher then!!" ,,thats just the way it is..get over it...

FACT: The piano as an instrument is not the same as most other instruments,, it requires a lot more dexterity and brainwork as you have to think vertically as well as melodically...it's easier to teach most kids from a younger age..
thats just the way it is..get over it...

if you want to drive formula 1 you don't go to the bloke around the corner who taught yer mate before his driving test, and chances are you dont decide to do it at an older age,,that's what JOC is.. pure elitist niche,, he's not an "ambassador" for the piano ..get over it people ..

Silent Shrill · 27-10-2010 01:08PM

Undergod wrote: »

They almost certainly won't regardless of attitude. I'm not saying they can't make great musicians, or become professionals, or anything of the sort, but it's just overwhelmingly uncommon for adult beginners to become professional orchestral musicians.

Not all schools accept adults seeking to do the leaving cert; as far as I understand FÁS will usually take younger applicants for apprenticeships and vocational training. Universities won't take people who cannot speak English to do undergraduate English degrees. This is no different.

Why wouldn't it be "uncommon for adult beginners to become professional orchestral musicians".........people like you make sure of that.

"Universities won't take people who cannot speak English to do undergraduate English degrees"..........pay 'em enough and they will.

"FÁS will usually take younger applicants for apprenticeships and vocational training".......I was wondering when that statement would be put in.........that's what you really think of the un-wealthy citizens.

evolving_doors · 27-10-2010 01:42PM

Silent Shrill wrote: »

Why wouldn't it be "uncommon for adult beginners to become professional orchestral musicians".........people like you make sure of that.

SS it's uncommon for a reason..ask people in a "professional" orchestra; how many as adults gave up their jobs and/or family/social time to begin an instrument with the aim of becoming a professional player??? what do you think the answer would be..

However... if you asked a few random punters on the street " would you like to give up your job etc and become a professional player in an orchestra ?" i'd say the majority would answer yes in a heart beat.. it's the fantasy versus the reality..
,, get over it ,If you want to become a professional player from scratch as an adult you need to be in a very unique position,, (excuse the super superlative) ....
"people like you" is stuff my grandfather used to say,,
adults who want to go to RIAM as beginners are deluded or misinformed..
besides it's "people like them" who'd be comin in takin the kids places, wouldn't it?

Silent Shrill · 27-10-2010 07:38PM

Armelodie wrote: »

SS it's uncommon for a reason..ask people in a "professional" orchestra; how many as adults gave up their jobs and/or family/social time to begin an instrument with the aim of becoming a professional player??? what do you think the answer would be..

I did it.........so now you know someone

evolving_doors · 27-10-2010 10:07PM

Silent Shrill wrote: »

I did it.........so now you know someone

Is that common?

Ricosruffneck · 31-10-2010 11:05AM

Hey guys,

have to say what a great thread first and foremost. It really puts to bed what apprehensions i had about starting to learn piano.

So I'm 24 been playing guitar since 16 but have only made the leap to keyboards in the past while and looking to buy a piano as a xmas pressie to myself (i deserve it ha).

Now you may laugh at how i got into piano music, it was listening to a lot of Muse and Radiohead and then finding out what their influences were (Chopin, Rachmaninov, Liszt etc).

But after watching a documentary about of the life Chopin on BBC4 2 weeks ago i have to say i want in on that. Now i would love to get private lessons but due to cash etc I'm considering joining a group adult beginner class in waltons school of music (as i'm basically next door to it)

I note from previous posts that this may be useless endeavor as i could only imagine 10-15 adults plinking and plonking their way through the 1hr class and not getting a lot of 1-1 time with the teacher. What would you guys advise?

And with regard to the topic of the thread i would hope that the more impassioned you are determines the player you become regardless of age.

I think the man himself sums it up well

In Chopin’s lessons, when a student played stiffly and mechanically, he would say impatiently, “Do put your whole soul into it.' He considered “feeling” the most essential quality for becoming a fine pianist.

Doshea3 · 31-10-2010 11:03PM

Hi Rico,

Briefly, speaking as a pianist and a piano teacher, my advice would be to find a teacher who will give you one-to-one tuition. With the right amount of dedication I believe it is possible for adult beginners to develop a secure and confident technique in a comparatively short space of time, though this would not be possible without one-to-one tuition.

Anything else I can help you with, please don't hesitate to contact me.

Dave.

Eph1958 · 05-11-2010 11:56PM

Although I abhor the elitist snobbish comments of J. O' C. I grudgingly have to admit he's probably right. The recording companies and general public are only interested in the "outstanding" musicians. However the overwhelming number of musicians cannot perform to this standard and probably would never be able to. It doesn't diminish their musicality, effort or ability.... they are just in a different place......probably closer to earth!!!!

Undergod · 06-11-2010 10:50AM

Silent Shrill wrote: »

Why wouldn't it be "uncommon for adult beginners to become professional orchestral musicians".........people like you make sure of that.

I'm not on the audition panels for any orchestras, so no, I don't make sure of that.

Silent Shrill wrote: »

"Universities won't take people who cannot speak English to do undergraduate English degrees"..........pay 'em enough and they will.

I doubt it. I'm pretty sure they expect you to speak the language before you start doing 3rd level course in literature.

Silent Shrill wrote: »

"FÁS will usually take younger applicants for apprenticeships and vocational training".......I was wondering when that statement would be put in.........that's what you really think of the un-wealthy citizens.

?

I'd like to reitirate, I don't think that adults shouldn't take up music. I myself am planning on taking up a new instrument in the near future; I'll be several years behind most of my competition, but I'm doing it anyway, and I plan on making it work.

petebricquette · 28-11-2010 08:37AM

Sandwlch wrote: »

Could anyone confirm the fruits of this policy and list all the concert pianists that have come out of the RIAM? If its too long, please list in seperate posts sorted alphabetically. Thanks.

Couldn't list them all but I can certainly name a few from quite recently! Finghin Collins, Fiachra Garvey, Nadene Fiorentini, Deborah Henry are all well-established or up and comers. Look, I'm a former BA performance student of the Academy and there's a huge amount wrong with it. But I know JO'C and he would never have meant his comments to drive or potentially drive adult students away from learning!
However, as many people have already noted, the RIAM is a centre for excellence. Particularly for piano and voice and so they only really want to take on part time students who they can nurture over the course of their lives to mould them into something approaching concert standard. That contextualises it somewhat I reckon!
I'd take serious exception to the poster who described the academy as 'renowned for low standards.' That may be the case with some younger part time students but certainly not the further you go! It's a cauldron there with serious competition: especially for pianists and singers. Luckily, I'm an oboist so it was marginally easier.

Anyway. Rant (and first ever post) over.

Pete

Almaviva · 28-11-2010 02:22PM

petebricquette wrote: »

Couldn't list them all but I can certainly name a few from quite recently! Finghin Collins, Fiachra Garvey, Nadene Fiorentini, Deborah Henry are all well-established or up and comers.

Not exactly a galaxy of stars from an exclusive school expressly focussing on high achievers. Up and comers dont always come some cant be counted until they do. Collins yes.

Undergod · 30-11-2010 04:21PM

petebricquette wrote: »

Couldn't list them all but I can certainly name a few from quite recently! Finghin Collins, Fiachra Garvey, Nadene Fiorentini, Deborah Henry are all well-established or up and comers. Look, I'm a former BA performance student of the Academy and there's a huge amount wrong with it. But I know JO'C and he would never have meant his comments to drive or potentially drive adult students away from learning!
However, as many people have already noted, the RIAM is a centre for excellence. Particularly for piano and voice and so they only really want to take on part time students who they can nurture over the course of their lives to mould them into something approaching concert standard. That contextualises it somewhat I reckon!
I'd take serious exception to the poster who described the academy as 'renowned for low standards.' That may be the case with some younger part time students but certainly not the further you go! It's a cauldron there with serious competition: especially for pianists and singers. Luckily, I'm an oboist so it was marginally easier.

Anyway. Rant (and first ever post) over.

Pete

You sound an awful lot like my housemate.

Coriolanus · 30-11-2010 05:28PM

Undergod wrote: »

You sound an awful lot like my housemate.

Is this a good thing or a bad thing?

petebricquette · 03-12-2010 10:56AM

Undergod wrote: »

You sound an awful lot like my housemate.

Bill?

leonie12 · 04-12-2010 06:05PM

petebricquette wrote: »

Couldn't list them all but I can certainly name a few from quite recently! Finghin Collins, Fiachra Garvey, Nadene Fiorentini, Deborah Henry are all well-established or up and comers. Look, I'm a former BA performance student of the Academy and there's a huge amount wrong with it. But I know JO'C and he would never have meant his comments to drive or potentially drive adult students away from learning!
However, as many people have already noted, the RIAM is a centre for excellence. Particularly for piano and voice and so they only really want to take on part time students who they can nurture over the course of their lives to mould them into something approaching concert standard. That contextualises it somewhat I reckon!
I'd take serious exception to the poster who described the academy as 'renowned for low standards.' That may be the case with some younger part time students but certainly not the further you go! It's a cauldron there with serious competition: especially for pianists and singers. Luckily, I'm an oboist so it was marginally easier.

Anyway. Rant (and first ever post) over.

Pete

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/education-chiefs-did-not-approve-expenses-paid-to-leading-pianist-2447954.html
Have been reading this for a while, but had to register to comment today!

Pete - you seem so keen to defend the RIAM & John O'Conor. The people you name are all very insignificant on the international music scene, even Finghin Collins. There are at least 40-50 pianists in England & Europe who have done much more than he has, but because they are not in an insular music environment they don't get the same exposure (read: John O'Conor backing) that he does. There are up and comers every year.

What do you all think of today's article that "Dr" O'Conor's extravagent lifestyle has been funded, in part, by Irish tax payers.
Poor students, hard-working couples, middle class families, everyone is in some way affected by his greed and arrogance. No wonder he doesn't like amateurs - they are footing the bill for his lifestyle. Point is, everything John O'Conor is involved with in some way or form, from the RIAM to the workshops to his comments about amateurs, is linked to his desire for constant self-promotion, and his arrogance and greed. Most people with a love of music and a desire to perform music to a high standard would do well to avoid the RIAM as far as possible. You're only funding an over inflated ego and bank account!

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/education-chiefs-did-not-approve-expenses-paid-to-leading-pianist-2447954.html

petebricquette · 04-12-2010 07:14PM

leonie12 wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/education-chiefs-did-not-approve-expenses-paid-to-leading-pianist-2447954.html
Have been reading this for a while, but had to register to comment today!

Pete - you seem so keen to defend the RIAM & John O'Conor. The people you name are all very insignificant on the international music scene, even Finghin Collins. There are at least 40-50 pianists in England & Europe who have done much more than he has, but because they are not in an insular music environment they don't get the same exposure (read: John O'Conor backing) that he does. There are up and comers every year.

What do you all think of today's article that "Dr" O'Conor's extravagent lifestyle has been funded, in part, by Irish tax payers.
Poor students, hard-working couples, middle class families, everyone is in some way affected by his greed and arrogance. No wonder he doesn't like amateurs - they are footing the bill for his lifestyle. Point is, everything John O'Conor is involved with in some way or form, from the RIAM to the workshops to his comments about amateurs, is linked to his desire for constant self-promotion, and his arrogance and greed. Most people with a love of music and a desire to perform music to a high standard would do well to avoid the RIAM as far as possible. You're only funding an over inflated ego and bank account!

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/education-chiefs-did-not-approve-expenses-paid-to-leading-pianist-2447954.html

I'm keen to defend the institution because I know that some of the teachers there are fantastic and have been vital to getting instrumentalists noticed and put up for auditions in an orchestral setting. That's just one thing I've found. I can list more positives but that's not the point.

However, I was completely unaware of the ridiculous pay Mr O'Conor was on. Especially seeing as he was certainly not there for 34 weeks of the year! It's upsetting to see that he was paid this much money when the 3rd level students always seemed to bear the brunt of any budgetary problems.

leonie12 · 04-12-2010 07:22PM

petebricquette wrote: »

I'm keen to defend the institution because I know that some of the teachers there are fantastic and have been vital to getting instrumentalists noticed and put up for auditions in an orchestral setting. That's just one thing I've found. I can list more positives but that's not the point.

However, I was completely unaware of the ridiculous pay Mr O'Conor was on. Especially seeing as he was certainly not there for 34 weeks of the year! It's upsetting to see that he was paid this much money when the 3rd level students always seemed to bear the brunt of any budgetary problems.

I don't think his pay is the problem (though that is absurd given the number of amazing musicians/teachers/piano professors the world over getting much, much less money to produce far better results).

It is the fact that he was claiming expenses for lavish parties, meals out, extravagant completely outrageous lifestyle and these expenses were funded by the average Irish tax-payer. So poor 3rd level students struggling to survive while getting better on their chosen instrument, parents around the country wanting their kids to do grade exams, EVERYONE was a victim of his greed and arrogance.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/1204/1224284774152.html

As keen as you are to defend the RIAM (I get that some teachers are wonderful and make a very important impact on a student's life) - the fact of the matter is this - the RIAM knew exactly what was going on, and covered it up. This is because many other teachers were getting ridiculous salaries, very inflated pensions, and doing sod-all teaching in terms of hours worked. This is a simple fact that even the board of the RIAM can't deny. The RIAM is no place for amateur students or ANY talented students because it has conned thousands and thousands of people out of money.

And yes, John O'Conor's opinion of amateur students is flawed and narrow-minded and indicative of an arrogant twat who doesn't want his precious, corrupt world infested with ordinary, talented, musical, passionate people!

The report only confirms what people in the RIAM have known for years and covered up!

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/1204/1224284774152.html

Gazdoc999 · 02-09-2012 01:13PM

I was a junior at Guildhall (piano and double bass) and did piano there as a part-timer for a few years with 1:1 lessons with a great teacher who has sadly now died. I realised early-on that I wasn't going to make a living out of music, so I switched to science. I now work with nervous tissue (that is not anxious Kleenex by the way).

I came across John O'Conor for the very first time last month, when I happened to see a You-Tube video of his Beethoven Summer School. It seemed jolly enough and he did get some of the students to perform at a higher level with more confidence. I was not too sure about his comments about one of the students, not on open air anyway. However, as an actual performer he has never registered on my raday, which is odd 55 years into a life of interest in classical music and the piano.

Whatever else anyone says, the nervous system does alter around puberty. It becomes more difficult to learn totally new stuff, particularly where a motor action is involved. However, it is not impossible if you have lots of time to practise. Matthew Syed's book "Bounce" gives a lot of interesting and readable information about this.

Adult learners have a different learning style from kids and they need to be able to evaluate stuff and hang it on the Velcro of pre-learned concepts and experience. Otherwise, starting from scratch, they have to work very hard to establish a framework for the new knowledge.

Sightreading is probably easiest if you established the neural pathways before puberty, but I find that my reading falls away horribly unless I am on the instrument every day. Then, the key to success is to stop thinking and evaluating, at which point it all seems to happen quite well!

So, cutting out the science babble, the summary is: Yes you can but it is a hell of a lot harder and you are doing it at a time when Mummy is no longer doing everything for you around the house. (For those with a retinue of servants it would be easier, of course...)

John O'Conor's comments on Adult Music Students

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