Hits, Airsoft & Honour

Inari · 21-11-2010 12:58AM #1

Airsoft is a game based on the honour system - but I think there is a grey area, not on what constitutes a Hit, but rather what is the 'Honour' system?

It is most commonly explained as "If you think you're hit, you're hit" - but I don't think this goes far enough. What I think is that the honour system needs to be plugged with some ego & arrogance - you should have Pride in your Integrity. Afterall, honour is integral to the game.

According to Encarta Dictionary, the word honour means:
Personal Integrity, Respect, Dignity, Reputation, Source of Pride, Mark of Distinction and Great Priveledge. These qualities come together, in what we call the Honour System - but I have yet to hear the Honour System be explained; it is more commonly re-stated in context. This does not give people clarity. The honour system is not limited to 'If you think you're hit; you're hit', and is much more complicated than that, or at least that is my perspective.

Allow me to elaborate:
- Personal Integrity: You should be made to feel that it is your responsibility to keep a level head, and play fair (i.e. according to the rules). This means that you should retain a degree of controll over yourself, and that you continue to conduct yourself in a manner befitting you're integrity. You should be made feel that how you play reflects YOU as a PERSON. If you are sure you hit someone, and they have not acknowledged it, you should be able to note it, and not make a deal out of it - shouting out "Take your hits" is just aggressive, and counter productive...in short, a big downer. If you are hit, you should again feel that you are representing yourself - so show yourself as you would like to be seen; if you are hit, then show off your integrity.

- Respect & Dignity: Everyone who plays the game of Airsoft is a person, and is thus equal (on a broad spectrum, in terms of Human Rights etc). I think respect for the others in the Game should also be pushed - without them, you wouldn't have a game as we know it, you'd just be plinking on your own. You should respect your team; your behaviour in relation to Integrity and adherance to the rules reflects on them. You should also respect your opponents and give them the benefit of the doubt - if you think you hit them, then ou can respectfully disagree...but please remember that respectfully disagreeing is not shouting 'TAKE YOUR HITS!!' - that phrase just causes more problems, and doesn't solve anything. You should also respect yourself, and thus conduct yourself in a dignified manner - take a step back, look at your behaviour/playing and see would you be happy to play against yourself...if not, there is something SERIOUSLY wrong.

- Reputation: This is probably the biggest one that should be pushed - the one that is closest to the good old ego; your reputation. You should be made to feel that your conduct in the games affects your reputation - do you want to be known as the testosterone-fuelled ass that shouts aggressively at people to take their hits, when they're not taking theirs...or do you want to be known as the nice, respectful player who adds to the game by following the rules and treating those around him/her with respect.

These are my thoughts - feel free to disagree & discuss; I just decided to post them to see if A) They spur some Airsoft-related talk &

to see what you guys think. For me the Honour System is a big deal - it is what makes Airsoft so great, and also what turns a lot of games 'Bad'

hrta · 21-11-2010 01:09AM

If only every player could attain 50% of that above post, they would be some players.

darman28 · 21-11-2010 02:00PM

Very well put inari, but u just get assholes in all walks of life and they do filter into airsoft and dont take hits then ruin the game.its the way on the world.

Ross_Mahon · 21-11-2010 02:04PM

The honour system should be enforced more on sites, Some printouts of the above would be nice

Puding · 21-11-2010 02:20PM

darman28 wrote: »

Very well put inari, but u just get assholes in all walks of life and they do filter into airsoft and dont take hits then ruin the game.its the way on the world.

and for that very reason it is even more important for people in this hobbies to maintain the 'honor' that is needed, it is all to easy for people to say well other are not taking there hit so i will not take mine or the lovely concept of 'overkill' as people call it and this is a recipe for disaster in most cases

honor to a way you play, its a mindset, the idea of honour in airsoft is essential due to the mature of an aeg where unlike paintball it is hard to prove a hit, it is normally counter to a lot of competitive sport these day and the culture of kidology

Example taken from football ( its one a lot of people will be familiar with and easier to understand )

A play is tackled in the box and exaggerates the fall after not even making contact with the defender, he does not say anything and gains the advantage of a penalty

A player goes down in the box and trips during a tackle but does not make contact with the defender, the ref sees it as a penalty. The play convinces the ref to revers the call or deliberately misses as he knows he was not brought down

Honor nowadays seems like a strange concept to may as it normally means putting yourself at a disadvantage.

I

Puding · 21-11-2010 02:23PM

Ross_Mahon wrote: »

The honour system should be enforced more on sites, Some printouts of the above would be nice

well that the thing, you can not force someone to follow an honor structure, the key is to encourage a environment where the honor structure is the norm thought example rather than force

Inari · 21-11-2010 02:51PM

As said, there are always people who do not follow rules etc in every walk of life, however as Puding said, it is these times that honour is more important. It's easy to keep your integrity & dignity intact when you are surrounded by honourable players - but where it really comes into its own is when you are surrounded by those who choose to break the rules, and yet you still play fairly, respectfully, and honourably. If you lower yourself to the standard, then you are no better than what you complain about.

My main point is that I think the onus for playing honourably should be placed on the individual, and to incur a greater degree of honesty etc, to bring their ego and their pride into the equation. In feudal Japan, dishonour was worse than death - sure that's very extreme, but it makes my point effectively. Basically I think that people should feel ashamed for not playing with honour, in all manners. I don't believe that it should be forced like a military regime, but rather constructed environmentally and atmospherically, as Puding also mentioned.

We, as players, should take the time to openly commend honest play, as opposed to condemning dishonest. People respond more to positivity, than negativity. If people were to do that, then people would start to see honour etc as a status symbol, something to attain...and that should (key word, should) spark a greater degree of honest integrable play.

Blazer · 21-11-2010 07:05PM

Let me guess Inari...you were at an airsoft game this weekend and some cheatin bastard wasn't taking their hits?;)

Lemming · 21-11-2010 08:51PM

Sc@recrow wrote: »

Let me guess Inari...you were at an airsoft game this weekend and some cheatin bastard wasn't taking their hits?;)

There's never a bad time to discuss/encourage good grace & sportsmanship * on the field of play

* I'm not debating airsoft as a sport or hobby, but the concept of fair-play, etc. Hence I use the term 'sportsmanship' to encapsulate an ideology

defenderdude · 21-11-2010 09:06PM

Lemming wrote: »

There's never a bad time to discuss/encourage good grace & sportsmanship * on the field of play

* I'm not debating airsoft as a sport or hobby, but the concept of fair-play, etc. Hence I use the term 'sportsmanship' to encapsulate an ideology

Agreed, but I think the idea of good grace & sportsmanship should be extended off the field to places including this forum also.

They both, along with some respect appear in very short supply these days.

Lemming · 21-11-2010 09:08PM

defenderdude wrote: »

Agreed, but I think the idea of good grace & sportsmanship should be extended off the field to places including this forum also.

I point my pokey stick of fire at you good sir

They both, along with some respect appear in very short supply these days.

All joking aside, I'm guilty of that myself in spades, as much as any other poster, and I couldn't agree more with the general sentiment. I would disagree that it's in short supply per-se and more on a per-topic basis and cyclical. There have always been days/weeks/months of argy-bargy that then dies down and life continues as it should (i.e. everyone gets along) before the next disagreement that turns a bit more "oo errr missus".

TheDoc · 22-11-2010 01:33AM

In all fairness we have gone down this route and topic dozens of times before.

We can all whip a post up that looks fantastic and should be enshrined in the bible, but at the end of the day the problem is still rampant.

Honor is just a ****ing word, it's a word with **** all meaning in this day and age and when you tell a 16 year old kid about honor he cringes and thinks your the gayest thing since Ben-Hur.

If you want to have Honor, if you want to have fair games, you oust the cheats, **** them out of your site and out of the game. As a player, you kick up a fuss, you tell a marshall, if they wont do anything tell the site owner, if they wont do anything do what we did back in the day, stop the game gather the players in and ask the cheaters straight out

"Why are you being a cheating ****?"

Simple as.

I'm not trying to be a sour bastard but we have these" brilliant" threads every few months, and all we do is **** each other off with thanks buttons, the problem isn't with the posters here : /

Have a look back maybe what, two years ago? Where I went on a verbal war on cheaters and blacklists came out of it and all, whats changed?

Sweet **** all, I'm still not arsed playing the game cause I still hear about loads of cheating and bull**** by the same people on the same sites over and over.

Stercus Accidit · 22-11-2010 01:39AM

You need pragmatism like the above as much as you need the idealism in the OP.

I skirmish where I skirmish because there is a policy of cheaters getting banned from there and that is made clear at the beginning of the day and has been enforced.

Report cheats to marshals, as said above and vote with your feet if they don't get reprimanded or banned from the site.

It is a good thing to discuss the honour system and the respect you have for other players, but you need enforced rules.

I dunno what the story is, I never see cheating myself on a grand scale, just the odd noob who gets told off and starts playing fair after that.

Damo 2k9 · 22-11-2010 01:44AM

TheDoc wrote: »

Sweet **** all, I'm still not arsed playing the game cause I still hear about loads of cheating and bull**** by the same people on the same sites over and over.

Dont play at the sites you hear about and dont skirmish with the people mentioned, simple as.

Inari · 22-11-2010 02:44AM

Idealism sets the rules, and you need a regime to constantly enforce them, right? Not wholistically true. To paraphrase something I've read in the past:

4 Gorillas are locked in a cage, and in the centre of this cage is a stairs. At the top of the stairs is a bananna. When one Gorilla goes for the bannana, he is stopped and they are all sprayed with water. Two gorillas are taken out, and two new ones put in. When one of them inevitibly goes for the bananna, they are stopped, and all the gorillas are sprayed with water. Two more of the original gorillas are taken out, and 2 new ones are put in. When one of the new ones tries to go for the bananna, the others stop it. Finally, the first 2 brought in are removed, and two new ones are introduced. When one gorilla goes for the bananna, the others instinctively stop it; why? Because it is the way it always was.

The rules need to be explained, understood and enforced. Without any one of those, the system will fail. If you do not understand the rules, how can you expect to adhere to them? If they are not explained, how can you hope to understand them? The gorillas wanted the bananna - soon they understood that they were not allowed. This was not explained, so there were more instances of the punishment until they understood; with proper explanation, and implementation of the punishment, it needs only one occurance. Soon the gorillas needed no external policing...but in time, they will forget & need a remembrance of why you're not to touch the bananna.

I believe that the best way to enforce the rules is by involving peoples egos into the equation - afterall, it is usually the ego that makes you cheat, so by using it to your advantage you can systematically remove a cause & effect, whilst instigating an atmospheric change. This is possible to achieve, and to good effect. But it does need a couple of things:
- A group of regulars who play fair and to a high standard
- Well marshalled site; any instance of rule-breaking is dealt with right away. On top of that, revise over the rules often...throw enough mud at a wall and it will stick
- New people over time
- Honesty & Fairness commended

What should theoretically happen in that situation is that the regulars set the bar, the first few new people look to them for the style of play, which strengthens their numbers as they in turn aspire to play like that. The martials actively encourage the aforementioned style of play, and due to positive reinforcement, people in turn aspire to play more commendably. It becomes a self policing society, and the martialing can decrease needing only periodic increases.

Can anyone here think of an effective method of bringing your pride into the equation? At the moment, pride is based on the mathematical 'X (number of kills) minus Y (number of times killed)'. Personally I cannot think of a good method...nothing that comes to mind accurately incapsulates the idea of maintaining self-dsicipline and dignity both when hit, and when cheated. The only thing that comes to mind is as trivial as a 'Good sportsman' prize at the end of a day's gaming for a discount on site, or something. It gives people an incentive, isn't too costly, and shows people the preferred mentality. But again, incentivising has been proven to only work effectively for simplistic tasks, and perhaps this is too complex. Any thoughts?

defenderdude · 22-11-2010 09:27AM

TheDoc wrote: »

In all fairness we have gone down this route and topic dozens of times before.

We can all whip a post up that looks fantastic and should be enshrined in the bible, but at the end of the day the problem is still rampant.

Honor is just a ****ing word, it's a word with **** all meaning in this day and age and when you tell a 16 year old kid about honor he cringes and thinks your the gayest thing since Ben-Hur.

If you want to have Honor, if you want to have fair games, you oust the cheats, **** them out of your site and out of the game. As a player, you kick up a fuss, you tell a marshall, if they wont do anything tell the site owner, if they wont do anything do what we did back in the day, stop the game gather the players in and ask the cheaters straight out

"Why are you being a cheating ****?"

Simple as.

I'm not trying to be a sour bastard but we have these" brilliant" threads every few months, and all we do is **** each other off with thanks buttons, the problem isn't with the posters here : /

Have a look back maybe what, two years ago? Where I went on a verbal war on cheaters and blacklists came out of it and all, whats changed?

Sweet **** all, I'm still not arsed playing the game cause I still hear about loads of cheating and bull**** by the same people on the same sites over and over.

Holier than thou...

Doc, if I didnt know you I'd say that was the biggest load of sancimionious, self righteous piety I've heard in a long time...

You're not aresd playing the game cause...:rolleyes:

Cheating and non-hit taking is part of the sport - it has been since day one. Deal with it or walk. Unfortunatley, utopia doesnt exist - not in this sport or any other.

We have all been accused of non-hit taking and even the most honest player in the world makes mistakes and sometimes is wrong.

I'm sure you've even been accused of cheating yourself! It's not just exclusive to sites here either - it's the world over and doesnt matter if it's milsim or walk-on Sunday superstubby boxmag fest... still happens.

The point I'm trying to make is - the only way to change it is not by ranting here on boards (never was and never will be)

Get out and play the game.

I understand your frustrations but negativity will solve nothing, as neither will positivity. Get out and play the game - and if you really are passionate about the game - get out and marshall, or do something within the community with regard to the whole marshalling issue.

Or dont.

Lemming · 22-11-2010 01:42PM

You take out of the hobby what you put into it at the end of the day.

If you cheat or comment negatively on cheating in some way shape or form, then don't be surprised when others do cheat and see nothing wrong with changing the game to suit themselves.

If you don't cheat, then play on knowing that you aren't cheating both the other guy AND yourself. The only person you really cheat is yourself because you aren't up to the task and never will be nor will you improve your skills/game because at the back of your mind you know what you've done.

Not cheating is the longer choice, but the rewards are far greater personally, and what you give in example will eventually rub off on others. It takes time.

In the meantime, the other guy is cheating; if there ain't a marshall around, then out play him and rub his nose in the dirt (proverbially speaking) by showing him that he can cheat like a tosser all he wants, but you STILL beat him because you don't cheat and your game improves as a result of that. He'll either eventually get p1ssed off that he's not "winning" and leave, or the lesson will start to sink into his neolithic skull.

Bottom line, get out there and play; show everyone how it's done (i.e. no cheating). I know that I'd rather crawl through a river of sh*t and work my @rse off to get that one fantastic and well-earned "hit" than to run around like I'm robocop racking up twenty hits from more honest players.

As for the forums; passion for airsoft is what leads to some very heated debates so lets not lose sight of that. I know I've gone off at other users like a dog with a bone, not because I was being a w@nker (although that may have ended up happening as a result), but because I genuinely perceive something that is negative to the sport; be it cheating, abuse/racial bigotry, suggested course of action leaving airsoft at the mercy of interest groups, etc. And I would hazard a benefit of the doubt that a lot of other reasonably mid/long-time airsofters here do too.

Airsoft Reloded · 23-11-2010 10:09AM

Damo 2k9 wrote: »

Dont play at the sites you hear about and dont skirmish with the people mentioned, simple as.

That doesn't really work dude, rumours are spread regardless of truth. You have to check these things out for yourself to be sure.

Kurbinator · 23-11-2010 01:31PM

I've always thought spraying cheaters with a barage of pellets until they get the point is the best option.Sadly frowned upon but accidents do happen

.
That being said I've seen an almost total drop in cheats where I skirmish now it seems only the young runts AKA cannon fodder (you guessed it I h8 kids) break the rules:D

Inari · 23-11-2010 01:48PM

Kurbinator wrote: »

I've always thought spraying cheaters with a barage of pellets until they get the point is the best option.Sadly frowned upon but accidents do happen .

You see I cannot agree with that at all. I understand the logic "They're not taking their hits; lets see them not take this" however, what does that solve? You're now catering toward their playing style - unless they get hit by a barrage of BBs, as you put it, they think that they can get away with it.

As Lemming said, and I would agree with this 100% - outplay them. Put more into the game from yourself, do not lower your standards and outplay them. Rise with the challenge and show them why cheating is pointless. Lowering yourself to their standards just creates a bigger problem, gets more people annoyed, and ruins the game for you have literally become a part of the problem.

Also, I have not found it to be the younger ones who ignore hits, nor the older ones...nor any generic group of people

Leftyflip · 23-11-2010 08:07PM

I've said it before, on here and on site, if someone isn't taking their hits, inform a mashal, they will then observe, catch them (by means of cheater checking) and deal with it. If the marshals don't deal with it, inform the site owner. However, always give players the benefit of doubt, they may not feel or hear the hit. It happens, don't throw your toys out of the pram.

Airsoft Reloded · 23-11-2010 11:07PM

Leftyflip wrote: »

I've said it before, on here and on site, if someone isn't taking their hits, inform a mashal, they will then observe, catch them (by means of cheater checking) and deal with it. If the marshals don't deal with it, inform the site owner. However, always give players the benefit of doubt, they may not feel or hear the hit. It happens, don't throw your toys out of the pram.

That should be made gospel, that is exactly how to look at it!

se conman · 23-11-2010 11:18PM

I think that too much time and threads is/are wasted talking about non hit takers.I have only played on 4 or 5 different sites but there have been very few rumors of cheeting , I would put it as low as 1 -2 % and that is a very good stat in any sport.If the energy that is wasted complaining about a few cheeters was spent promoting the sport , we would be the biggest sport in the country.IMHO.

Airsoft Reloded · 23-11-2010 11:20PM

se conman wrote: »

I think that too much time and threads is/are wasted talking about non hit takers.I have only played on 4 or 5 different sites but there have been very few rumors of cheeting , I would put it as low as 1 -2 % and that is a very good stat in any sport.If the energy that is wasted complaining about a few cheeters was spent promoting the sport , we would be the biggest sport in the country.IMHO.

True, it is quite irregular at this stage I think

TheDoc · 24-11-2010 02:09AM

se conman wrote: »

I think that too much time and threads is/are wasted talking about non hit takers.I have only played on 4 or 5 different sites but there have been very few rumors of cheeting , I would put it as low as 1 -2 % and that is a very good stat in any sport.If the energy that is wasted complaining about a few cheeters was spent promoting the sport , we would be the biggest sport in the country.IMHO.

Although I havnt played in a while, I still ask around about how games are going and wheres good to play.

It still seems a pretty dominant feature. Every conversation starts of with the chat about cheating, so it still happens, far to frequently far to often by the sounds of things.

Granted thats me getting second hand info, I count it as reliable.

se conman · 24-11-2010 09:33AM

From first hand experience 1-2% of players cheat and 80-90% of players who complain of cheating just missed.
One thing that I would say is that there is a difference between cheaters and non-hit takers.Cheaters are few and far between and should be ignored because cheaters will always be cheaters but non-hit takers can be unused to the sensation of a hit (new players) didn't feel it or just too caught up in the moment but these players can be educated to become valued members of our sport.

Inari · 24-11-2010 02:20PM

Before this veers off in completely the wrong direction:

What SeConman has just said was the main point of my initial post; you should be fair about any time you have been hit, and you should also give benefit of the doubt. You should remain dignified in both.

I definitely agree with defenderdude; the only way to change it is to take Ghandi's approach and become the change you wish to see. Get involved in the games and steer them in the direction you'd like to take them. That's what I try and do at least, and it makes me have a good time even when there may not be a very good time to be had.

There is another aspect which I haven't touched upon, and that's competitive spirit. Competition most commonly leads to people cheating, for they forget that the most important competition is against themselves. When people are only thinking about winning, they stop thinking about the more important things, and the Honour System is one of those things. Another problem is that with this playing style, testosterone is pumping, and aggression starts to build up which isn't cool.

Playing tactically and playing competitively are worlds apart, and are entirely different. One is unemotional, and the other is incentivised. When you play tactically, your goal is to achieve your objective under a set of circumstances you have either provided yourself (stealth, number of casualties/deaths allowed etc) or were provided for you (rules of the game).

But when you play competitively you're trying to win. This makes you glance over a lot of things, and the first thing to go is usually the fun aspect. People stop being good sportsmen...things like congratulating the opponent on a good shot etc fade and disappear, and are usually transplanted with aggression and annoyance at being hit.

Lemming · 24-11-2010 02:29PM

Inari wrote: »

Playing tactically and playing competitively are worlds apart, and are entirely different. One is unemotional, and the other is incentivised. When you play tactically, your goal is to achieve your objective under a set of circumstances you have either provided yourself (stealth, number of casualties/deaths allowed etc) or were provided for you (rules of the game).

I would disagree with the assertion that competitive play and tactical play are worlds apart. In order to facilitate tactical play, you have to have an end-goal. There's your incentive. It's just that some people lose sight of everything else other than "must win, must win, must win, must win".

The best sports people are the ones who can think objectively whilst competing. "Am I flagging? Do I need to pace myself for the next 10km run? Does this guy have a longer reach than me in martial arts? etc". The same logic can be applied to any other game/sport/hobby including airsoft.

Don't confuse "am best, mwuaahaahaaaa pwn j000000 or I throw a strop because I don't win" with "competitive play".

Inari · 24-11-2010 02:48PM

I would maintain that they are seperate, but concede that there is more significant crossover than I gave credit for. Your point about maintaining focus throughout competition is what I was getting at with Tactical Play.

What I meant by competitive play was more based on competitive behaviour; alpha male dominance type of style. Where everything is a competition, and you're trying to be the best at it. Yes this is not always the case, but in my experience through many competitive (and non-competitive) sports, hobbies and disciplines, it is the main problem with external competition.

I would stipulate that the first type, the tactical play, which I now concede is also competitive, is motivated through internal competition - proving to yourself that you can do things. Whereas the latter is more external, and revolves around proving to others.

Fair points Lemming - good food for thought

Hits, Airsoft & Honour

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