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Catholic grip on education receives rap on knuckles

2

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  • #32
    Galvasean
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    You people seem to think the Church has an ample supply of spending money. It's clearly hoarding money. You're not allowed spend that.

    jco0400l.jpg


  • #33
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    robindch wrote: »
    I can't comment country-wide, but certainly in the schools I'm aware of, the church "built" schools by funnelling cash it received from (a) a bequest for this specific purpose (b) a local collection it, or its parishioners, happened to organize or (c) State funds received for the purpose. In no case I'm aware of, did the church pay for a school from central funds (though I'm sure there must be some instances).
    Not to mention the fact that these schools then went on to employ members of religious orders at state expense.


  • #34
    Rabble Rabble
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,367 ✭✭✭Rabble Rabble


    robindch wrote: »
    From one school out in Dun Laoghaire:
    [/IMG]


    Lol. Particularly at the thanks.

    Let me restate what I said. Read it a bit slower. "The interest of the 19th century State in State education was exactly zero"

    Let me quote from your attachment.

    "blah bah blah erected by voluntary contribution - 1878".

    Thats an epic epic fail. It's not that one post of one school would disprove anything anyway, these would be exceptions ( and the late century saw some State involvement) but you posted a school financed by voluntary contributions. NOT the State.


    The Catholic Church, whose contributions are voluntary too ( unlike taxes), built the Catholic schools we are talking about ( andI never said all schools) because the State didnt, and so it owns the land. We exist as a nation because of these schools tbh. So secularise all you want, but pay up.


  • #35
    Rabble Rabble
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,367 ✭✭✭Rabble Rabble


    strobe wrote: »
    They are? I know in my primary school the tax payer (state) payed fully for the heating, electricity bills ect. They also payed fully for the teachers wages. They also payed the full cost of supplies. Any extras that the state wouldn't pay fully for, when we were building a computer room for example, the difference was made up by fund raising activities by the students and parents. Bake sales, sports day's, those thing where the kids walk around to all the houses in the estate knock on people doors and say "will ye sponsor me me, missus!?!". That's where every penny that came into the school came from and still does come from.

    Was my school the exception rather than the norm? In most other schools do the Vatican wire money over when they need to buy a couple of PC's for the computer room or a few footballs or boxes of chalk? Do they pay any of the teachers wages?

    Christ sake. THe ORIGINAL SCHOOLS AND THE LAND.


  • #36
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,458 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Rabble Rabble wrote: »
    Let me restate what I said. Read it a bit slower. "The interest of the 19th century State in State education was exactly zero" [...] "blah bah blah erected by voluntary contribution - 1878". Thats an epic epic fail.
    Let me quote from your original claim about the church's involvement in school building:
    Rabble Rabble wrote: »
    They built the original schools
    And now let me compare this with what the sign says:
    School in Dun Laoghaire wrote:
    Kingstown Parochial Schools Erected by Voluntary Contributions 1878
    As you say, an epic fail.


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  • #37
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,044 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    eblistic wrote: »
    I've been lead to believe that a school with a Catholic "ethos" could, and would, allow that ethos to permeate all aspects of the school day (not just religious instruction). Is that not still the case?


    This is very much the case, with colouring in christian pictures as part of Art class and learning hymns as part of music class.

    eblistic wrote: »
    This has always baffled me when it came to the Church claiming ownership of all of the schools it has been the patron of. How much has the RC itself really contributed (as opposed to local communities and the State as you say)? I'd love to see some proper research in this area. How solid are their claims legally?

    Each church pays a token grant per child to the primary school it's around 10 euro a year at the start of the year which is comes from the collections. I make a point of paying it myself.


  • #38
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Rabble Rabble wrote: »
    So secularise all you want, but pay up.
    Rabble Rabble wrote: »
    The Catholic Church, whose contributions are voluntary too ( unlike taxes).
    Given that the church doesn't pay any taxes of course, perhaps they should start paying up too?


  • #39
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,031 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    antiskeptic wrote: »
    One for the a(nti-)theist camp. I know the discrimination was against a Church of Ireland teacher but the general principle involved should warm the hearts of the secularists among you :)

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/1117/1224283529263.html

    Incredible. Fair play to the prods.

    In fairness, there's a COI school near me and afaik they have a policy of taking in catholic pupils and teachers (i.e. not just their own). They also take in plenty of non religion people as well afaik. I think originally it was both COI and RC school but the Bishops wouldn't let Catholics go there because they'd be mixing with the Prods a la Trinity College.

    The COIs don't seem as hardcore as the RC. And that's something I think we should respect.


  • #40
    ColmDawson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,001 ✭✭✭ColmDawson


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    This is very much the case, with colouring in christian pictures as part of Art class and learning hymns as part of music class.
    I couldn't resist.

    2587146606_e5fcfbba2f.jpg


  • #41
    keppler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 389 ✭✭keppler


    Tim Robbins wrote: »

    In fairness, there's a COI school near me and afaik they have a policy of taking in catholic pupils and teachers (i.e. not just their own). They also take in plenty of non religion people as well afaik. I think originally it was both COI and RC school but the Bishops wouldn't let Catholics go there because they'd be mixing with the Prods a la Trinity College.

    The COIs don't seem as hardcore as the RC. And that's something I think we should respect.

    correct me if im wrong here but, I think that if any school, of any religious denomination in Ireland receives state funding then I dont think that they're allowed by law to discriminate against students who wish to attend such schools.
    I went to an RC secondary school in the 90's and there were plenty of kids who were protestant, there were even a few muslim kids and I think a few eastern orthodox too.
    But fair play to them for hiring the catholic teachers that is definitely a sign of moving with the times.


    Oh and did you have to use the word 'Prods' seriously man....


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  • #42
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    keppler wrote: »
    correct me if im wrong here but, I think that if any school, of any religious denomination in Ireland receives state funding then I dont think that they're allowed by law to discriminate against students who wish to attend such schools...
    They certainly are.
    Equal Status Act 2000, Section 7(3)(c) wrote:
    Where the establishment is a school providing primary or post-primary education to students and the objective of the school is to provide education in an environment which promotes certain religious values, it admits persons of a particular religious denomination in preference to others or it refuses to admit as a student a person who is not of that denomination and, in the case of a refusal, it is proved that the refusal is essential to maintain the ethos of the school.

    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2000/en/act/pub/0008/sec0007.html
    And what's more they do. I found out last weekend my cousin's daughter was denied a place in her local community school as she wasn't baptised.


  • #43
    keppler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 389 ✭✭keppler


    Dades wrote: »
    They certainly are.

    And what's more they do. I found out last weekend my cousin's daughter was denied a place in her local community school as she wasn't baptised.


    I must admit I found it a bit surreal reading that Act....:(
    Especially since several people have told me in the recent past that they're not allowed to do this.

    Your cousins daughter's situation just makes me angry, damned angry......if you dont mind me asking? what denomination is their local community school?................community school just sounds ironic now in light of what they have done!


  • #44
    goingpostal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 858 ✭✭✭goingpostal


    Significantly, the school in the case did not rely on Section 37.1 of the Employment Equality Act in its defence. This allows a Catholic school to discriminate on the grounds of religion if it believes its ethos is under threat.
    What this means is that 90% of the primary schools in this country can discriminate legally against any teacher that threatens their ability to brainwash vulnerable children into believing that Joseph Ratzinger has magic powers. Fantastic.

    Also, lately, I was at a graduation ceremony at one of our wonderful Catholic Colleges of Further Education/Teacher Training Colleges. The clown in charge had a lengthy whinge about 'funding shortages' and how the government of the state was cutting back his budget. Not once did he mention the possibility of hitting up Pappa Ratzi for some wonga to run his august institution. Maybe he doesn't want to disturb Pappa Ratzi from his other important duties, like running an international criminal conspiracy to protect and conceal child rapists, in order to protect his organisations public image. Ho hum.


  • #45
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,031 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    keppler wrote: »
    correct me if im wrong here but, I think that if any school, of any religious denomination in Ireland receives state funding then I dont think that they're allowed by law to discriminate against students who wish to attend such schools.
    I went to an RC secondary school in the 90's and there were plenty of kids who were protestant, there were even a few muslim kids and I think a few eastern orthodox too.
    But fair play to them for hiring the catholic teachers that is definitely a sign of moving with the times.


    Oh and did you have to use the word 'Prods' seriously man....

    You're wrong - they are allowed discriminate.

    My wife is a Prod and I use this word to wind her up if she is reading.


  • #46
    fisgon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,747 ✭✭✭fisgon


    Rabble Rabble wrote: »

    Thats an epic epic fail. It's not that one post of one school would disprove anything anyway, these would be exceptions ( and the late century saw some State involvement) but you posted a school financed by voluntary contributions. NOT the State.

    Who were these voluntary contributions from? From the people of this country. They paid for the schools' contruction.
    Rabble Rabble wrote: »
    We exist as a nation because of these schools tbh. So secularise all you want, but pay up.

    The state has paid many many times over for the cost of land and buildings through the subsidy of catholic education. The church wouldn't exist in this country in any meaningful way without primary education being paid for by the state, catholicism owes all of its power and influence to a state that has paid for everything for decades.


  • #47
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,458 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Dades wrote: »
    I found out last weekend my cousin's daughter was denied a place in her local community school as she wasn't baptised.
    If it were my kid, I'd be marching up the center aisle half way through next Sunday morning's eleven o'clock mass and demanding to know from His Higness why his organization prevented my child from receiving an education in the local school.

    Somebody needs to stand up to these arrogant, cosseted bastards.


  • #48
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,458 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Dades wrote: »
    I found out last weekend my cousin's daughter was denied a place in her local community school as she wasn't baptised.
    On minute inspection of the text of Section 7.3 (c), I'm inclined to think that the text of the derogation is at least ambiguous, and possibly unenforceable as written.

    It's late, wine has been consumed etc, etc, but I'd have thought it worth at least the price of a phonecall to the right kind of legal people.


  • #49
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    keppler wrote: »
    Your cousins daughter's situation just makes me angry, damned angry......if you dont mind me asking? what denomination is their local community school?................community school just sounds ironic now in light of what they have done!
    I can only assume it's RC, but I don't know for sure. Must find out...
    robindch wrote: »
    If it were my kid, I'd be marching up the center aisle half way through next Sunday morning's eleven o'clock mass and demanding to know from His Higness why his organization prevented my child from receiving an education in the local school.
    I'm not one for marching but I'd be tempted were I ever in that position.


  • #50
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,044 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    robindch wrote: »
    If it were my kid, I'd be marching up the center aisle half way through next Sunday morning's eleven o'clock mass and demanding to know from His Higness why his organization prevented my child from receiving an education in the local school.

    Somebody needs to stand up to these arrogant, cosseted bastards.

    The thing is while it may be the school in the local it was set up for the parish,
    and the notion that you live in the area but are not part of the parish is still one that most do not under stand. Community = parish in Ireland, with many of the 'community' halls or rescource centres being that in name to claim grants when they are in fact parish halls, built on land own by the church and so subject to cannon law and when you try to us them for something which run counter to that you get refused.


  • #51
    keppler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 389 ✭✭keppler


    robindch wrote: »
    On minute inspection of the text of Section 7.3 (c), I'm inclined to think that the text of the derogation is at least ambiguous, and possibly unenforceable as written.

    It's late, wine has been consumed etc, etc, but I'd have thought it worth at least the price of a phonecall to the right kind of legal people.

    Yeah I kinda thought that myself
    the refusal is essential to maintain the ethos of the school,

    How anyone could prove that the refusal of an unbaptised child is 'essential' to the preservation of the school's ethos is beyond me.
    Clearly all one would have to do is express the point that the school has no objections to granting admittance to kids of other religious denominations (which I would almost certainly think they do) as proof that it is not essential.
    Just thinking about what I said above....... someone on that school board must really have it in for atheists if they Deemed it fit to exclude an unbaptised child from an education.
    What a sad way to be..........I dont like her atheist parents so I think i'll punish them by punishing their kid.....:(


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  • #52
    Galvasean
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    Damn atheists! they think they're so clever. We'll seehow clever they are when we stop them from going to school!


  • #53
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,044 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    keppler wrote: »
    How anyone could prove that the refusal of an unbaptised child is 'essential' to the preservation of the school's ethos is beyond me.
    Clearly all one would have to do is express the point that the school has no objections to granting admittance to kids of other religious denominations (which I would almost certainly think they do) as proof that it is not essential.
    Just thinking about what I said above....... someone on that school board must really have it in for atheists if they Deemed it fit to exclude an unbaptised child from an education.
    What a sad way to be..........I dont like her atheist parents so I think i'll punish them by punishing their kid.....:(

    See the way it works is the school has X ammount of places and per place they get a grant when it's filled by a child and the school asks for the pps number of the child to drawn down the grant.

    Where the number of children on the list is < X every child gets a place and the school will happily take non RC and none Christian kids to reach X and get the full grants possible.

    Where the number of child on the list is > X they then can bring to bear the enrolment policy where children are ranked and graded for places according to certain criteria.

    If the child lives in the cachement area ie the parish boundaries.
    If the child is baptised in the parish.
    If the child is baptised elsewhere but is RC and is now in the Parish.
    If the child is christian but not RC
    D.O.B how close to the age of 6 the child is as all kids have to start by then.
    IF and how many siblings there are in the school or have been in the school
    If and how many family member there are in the school or have been in the school.

    The children are sorted and given priority based on the above criteria.

    If the number of children = X +1 then a child which is not christian/not baptised in the parish/who has no siblings/family member in the school will the one not offered a place.

    And yes there have been cases where children who live outside of the cachement area but who are baptised christian have gotten places in the school as the school's priority are RC children first and then christians.

    Yes it is protecting the ethos as if you have none christian children in the class they tend to ask awkward questions and even if they don't by their presence alone they send the message that RC is not the only way.


  • #54
    keppler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 389 ✭✭keppler


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    See the way it works is the school has X ammount of places and per place they get a grant when it's filled by a child and the school asks for the pps number of the child to drawn down the grant.

    Where the number of children on the list is < X every child gets a place and the school will happily take non RC and none Christian kids to reach X and get the full grants possible.

    Where the number of child on the list is > X they then can bring to bear the enrolment policy where children are ranked and graded for places according to certain criteria.

    If the child lives in the cachement area ie the parish boundaries.
    If the child is baptised in the parish.
    If the child is baptised elsewhere but is RC and is now in the Parish.
    If the child is christian but not RC
    D.O.B how close to the age of 6 the child is as all kids have to start by then.
    IF and how many siblings there are in the school or have been in the school
    If and how many family member there are in the school or have been in the school.

    The children are sorted and given priority based on the above criteria.

    If the number of children = X +1 then a child which is not christian/not baptised in the parish/who has no siblings/family member in the school will the one not offered a place.

    And yes there have been cases where children who live outside of the cachement area but who are baptised christian have gotten places in the school as the school's priority are RC children first and then christians.

    Yes it is protecting the ethos as if you have none christian children in the class they tend to ask awkward questions and even if they don't by their presence alone they send the message that RC is not the only way.



    See let me explain how not to make RC religious schools look even worse than atheists/agnostics think they actually are.........

    May I begin by recommending that you dont go into explicit detail on the vile disgusting criteria used by these schools to discriminate against children seeking an education (and I put the emphasis on children):rolleyes:

    I expressly love the way your seven criteria didnt provide a means for which to discriminate against any children who are not of a christian denominationb (how very humanist of them).


    none christian children in the class they tend to ask awkward questions and even if they don't by their presence alone they send the message that RC is not the only way.

    If this is the best reasoning you have then the only word that springs to my mind is PATHETIC!...yes I can just imagine the hypothetical court case now.........."aaahemm your honour, the reason this child is perceived as a threat to our ethos is because, the simple, reasonable and logical questions asked by non RC children could prove catastrophic to the brainwashing process we impose on the baptised RC children".

    Seriously is the RCC's doctrine really so thin that it could come tumbling down by the threat of a mere question?????


  • #55
    keppler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 389 ✭✭keppler


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    The thing is while it may be the school in the local it was set up for the parish,
    and the notion that you live in the area but are not part of the parish is still one that most do not under stand. Community = parish in Ireland, with many of the 'community' halls or rescource centres being that in name to claim grants when they are in fact parish halls, built on land own by the church and so subject to cannon law and when you try to us them for something which run counter to that you get refused.

    So there calling them something there not in order to obtain grants.......how honest of them to do so!
    jesus your on fire tonite man...keep em coming lol


  • #56
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    keppler wrote: »
    If this is the best reasoning you have then the only word that springs to my mind is PATHETIC!...
    I can only assume you realise this is Thaedydal's verbalisation of the church's reasoning, rather than her condoning it. (Being a mod of Paganism might have been a clue...)


  • #57
    Galvasean
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    Not to mention her recent thread about how she didn't like her child being forced to take a Bible at school...


  • #58
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 52,345 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    not to mention that it's pretty clear from her wording that she's explaining rather than justifying the situation.


  • #59
    keppler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 389 ✭✭keppler


    Dades wrote: »
    I can only assume you realise this is Thaedydal's verbalisation of the church's reasoning, rather than her condoning it. (Being a mod of Paganism might have been a clue...)


    Nope......in fairness though it would appear that her posts were just so sarcastic that I could even tell and didnt bother to look under her avatar...

    My bad Thaedydal


  • #60
    Genghiz Cohen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,182 ✭✭✭Genghiz Cohen


    I'm sure Poes law has been envoked at some level...


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  • #61
    keppler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 389 ✭✭keppler


    Genghiz Cohen wrote: »
    I'm sure Poes law has been envoked at some level...

    In fairness I actually did think she was taking the piss untill I read these two sentences and then......
    Thaedydal wrote: »

    And yes there have been cases where children who live outside of the cachement area but who are baptised christian have gotten places in the school as the school's priority are RC children first and then christians.

    Yes it is protecting the ethos as if you have none christian children in the class they tend to ask awkward questions and even if they don't by their presence alone they send the message that RC is not the only way.


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