What to buy for first time recording?

silverwater · 02-11-2010 09:29PM #1

I have some songs I'd like to record.
I have the above tips and such, but am still unsure as to which way to proceed.

I had been previously considering buying an 8track.
In particular, this one: http://www.thomann.de/ie/zoom_r16.htm

I understand that I would need an SD Card, and a mic for this?
Perhaps
http://www.thomann.de/ie/thomann_sd_card_4_gb.htm and
http://www.thomann.de/ie/behringer_xm8500.htm

I read about the Shure SM 57 and 58, but apparently the sound quality for a first time recording does not warrant the extra 80euro or so on a mic..?

Through reading the above threads, I've followed the advice to instead consider instead getting a sound card/audio interface and monitors seperately.
http://www.thomann.de/ie/lexicon_omega_studio.htm and

http://www.thomann.de/ie/edirol_ma7abk.htm

Any information you can pass on here would be great, as I am really out of my depth.

I plan to use mainly acoustic guitar, sometimes a few tracks and vocals.
Also some other variations of shakers, perscussion, maybe keyboard/ harmonica, but still singer-songwriter/ folk for now.

GTE · 02-11-2010 11:03PM

In terms of getting audio recorded I would also go the audio interface route.
The question now is:

USB vs Firewire.

USB Pros:
Usually cheaper.
Usually powered only by the USB socket.
Easy to use.
Generally good quality if you stick to good brands.

Cons:
Limited simultaneous track recording. EG. You may only be able to record one or two tracks at the same time.
Little or no expandability.

Firewire:

Pros:
Large simultaneous track recording. I cant put a figure on it but I am up to 16.
Expandability is very much there.
Very reasonably priced.
Huge selection.

Cons:
Generally if not always powered by a separate plug.
Generally you will need to get a separate specific firewire card for you computer.

Two major points to consider in my opinion besides cost.

1) How many tracks do you want to record at the same time?
Maybe now you are a singer song writer, so you would like two. One for the guitar and one for your voice.
Most USBs should record two at the same time. I am open for correction but I am sure that at some point if you have a big percussion set or a drum kit for a song in years to come or even now and you didnt think about it, you will need more. So that is where Firewire comes in. You can record 8 at the same time with most interfaces before you need to expand.

2) Can you expand?
With firewire yes! Almost all of the budget and midrange FW interfaces have ADAT and other types of connection for expansion.
Without getting into the techy stuff if you have any firewire interface that has an ADAT in you can in the future if you wish hook up machines such as the Behringer ADA8000 to it.
So, if you get a 8 channel FW interface such as the Focusrite Pro40 and you need more then 8 channels to be recorded at the same time you can hook up the ADA8000 and now you can record 16 channels at the same time.
OR
This may be more relevant to you.
You could get a smaller FW interface. One with 2 or 4 inputs. If you find you need more you can expand in the same way!

Give all the products I mentioned a Thomann search.
Prices are good.
I would look up Focusrite Saffire, Prosonus, M-Audio. Some more. I think you can ask the Thomann search to set your details but they are the ones that come to my head.

btw. I am very much bias towards Focusrite stuff because I own the Pro 40 and its been a great machine. Bias in a good way

Best o luck

GTE · 02-11-2010 11:18PM

In terms the SM57 and 58 will do you years of good service and will not be replaced of you get me. They work great on drums, live vox (or regular vox depending on the sound you want), guitars.

Those mics are known as moving coil mics or more commonly dynamic mics.
Pros:
Cheap
Robust
Have a compression characteristic which, without getting into it means that if things get very very loud for whatever reason there is a but of a cushion you hit before the mic starts distorting. It should never come to that anyway.

Cons:
Dont pickup high frequencies well so cymbals are a no no and they dont sound as clear as condensers for vocals.

Next up are electrostatic, commonly known as condenser.

Pros:
Generally regarded as sounding better then moving coil dynamic mics.
They can be more versatile, especially modern ones that can cope with loud sources like dynamics.
Good for acoustic guitars
Guitar cabs (if a good make)
Drum overheads
Bass drum (if good make, like guitar cabs it needs to be able to stand up to loud sources)

Cons:
Can be cheap but bad cheap. Where Sm57's are very good dymanic mics you can get very cheap but very bad condenser so you should invest and get a really good condenser in the budget range. SE2200a is what I use. Nice.

My advice.
Get a good quality condenser. It will be an investment and it is more versatile for the moment.
If you get into recording you will have a big mic of many types of microphone. None are better then others officially because different types suit different things.

GTE · 02-11-2010 11:22PM

Software:

To do all this recording you will need some software.

A good free one is Reaper. Another decent one is Audacity but I dont know how it would cope with asking it to record loads of tracks.

If any interface made by Mackie comes under your net you should get a copy of their software for free.
Same goes for Prosonus and maybe M-Audio. Dont know too much about that really.
Focusrite does ship Ableton Live but I have never used it. I am a Cubase user myself.

Each program will have its follewers and learning is generally easy.

madtheory · 03-11-2010 10:35AM

Good recommendations bbk.

Tracktion is good, so is Reaper. Audacity is not so good.

Just be aware that Windows laptops vary wildly in their reliability for audio use. You may have to do some research to find a reliable model.

You would be safe with a Mac, although they are more expensive. They come with Garageband which is a great starter recorder. You can buy Logic Express as an upgrade, also very good. Reaper will run on the Mac.

I suggest you get an audio interface that has more than two inputs, this will be far more useful in the long run.

studiorat · 03-11-2010 11:06AM

silverwater wrote: »

I have some songs I'd like to record.

I plan to use mainly acoustic guitar, sometimes a few tracks and vocals.
Also some other variations of shakers, perscussion, maybe keyboard/ harmonica, but still singer-songwriter/ folk for now.

Why not book a studio for a few hours?

Paolo_M · 03-11-2010 03:10PM

Just to add that bbks comments regarding are correct for USB1.0 devices but not correct for USB2.0 devices.
USB2.0 easily handles 8 channel simultaneously, probably more.

It is not good to just use USB of Firewire in general terms as there are different flavours of each with different throughputs.

fitz · 03-11-2010 03:12PM

USB has a CPU overhead though, which will effect throughput, that's why you don't see as many USB interfaces with more than two channels...

Paolo_M · 03-11-2010 04:10PM

fitz wrote: »

USB has a CPU overhead though, which will effect throughput, that's why you don't see as many USB interfaces with more than two channels...

That affect's data disc read/write times fairly significantly which is why it's not as good for use as a recording drive.
It does affect data flow in general on USB but USB2.0 should easily handle 12 channels of 44.1kHz 24 bit without any serious penalty on latency.

USB1.0 is practically limited to only two channels, but like I said there's a bunch of USB2.0 devices doing 8 channels, some up to 14.
I own this one and it works great

I recorded a kit with all 8 channels @ 44.1kHz 24 bit without one single problem the other day and zero latency (well the drummer or myself could not detect any

). That was with a new MacBook Pro, dunno how it would perform under Windows...
This guy has got the Octane preamps which are supposed to be great, but probably wasted on me.

This is a brief list of USB2.0 devices
http://www.recordingreview.com/soundcard/browse.php?advanced=1&inputs=&preamps=&hizinput=&connection=USB+2.0&midi=&bundled=&monitoring=&SPDIF=&AES=&ADAT=&PC=&MAC=&x=44&y=28
It's by no means complete as the Fast Track Ultra 8R is not there.

Adyx · 03-11-2010 05:23PM

Should also point out that Reaper is not free. It's evaluation version is not restricted or time limited but considering the quality of the software I don't think €29.48 is too much to ask for registering.

judas101 · 03-11-2010 05:51PM

studiorat wrote: »

Why not book a studio for a few hours?

:pac:

Cause a few hours in a studio costs the same as a copy of Ableton.

Which do you think is the better investment?

Paolo_M · 03-11-2010 06:28PM

judas101 wrote: »

:pac:

Cause a few hours in a studio costs the same as a copy of Ableton.

Which do you think is the better investment?

How much does knowing Abletons basic usage, tracking, mixing, production and mastering, having decent recording equipment, having a good enough spec PC/Mac to run your DAW, having a decent room to record and mix in, having an interface, a selection of mics, a decent pair of studio monitors, some acoustic treatment, as well as having enough general knowledge and real world experience of tracking, mixing, production and mastering in order to produce a decent quality recording in any kind of reasonable time, cost, both financially as well as time investment?

I'm all for DIY but it's not cheap, not as cheap as just the price of a DAW, and requires a significant time investment to arrive at any kind of usable results.

judas101 · 03-11-2010 11:14PM

Paolo_M wrote: »

How much does knowing Abletons basic usage, tracking, mixing, production and mastering, having decent recording equipment, having a good enough spec PC/Mac to run your DAW, having a decent room to record and mix in, having an interface, a selection of mics, a decent pair of studio monitors, some acoustic treatment, as well as having enough general knowledge and real world experience of tracking, mixing, production and mastering in order to produce a decent quality recording in any kind of reasonable time, cost, both financially as well as time investment?

And how many studios in Dublin can offer all those things?

For most young bands the first studio session was usually a disaster. IMO, its better to spend a few quid on home gear until one becomes comfortable with the recording process, playing to click ect.

Also invaluable for getting ideas together.

Im not suggesting rule out studios altogether, but just use them when ready. And when that time does come, dont go for a ten a penny cheapo studio but rather a good one with good credentials.

There's a lot of guys here with vested interests in studio, hence the occasional questionable advice. This is one of the things that pisses me off about this forum.

GTE · 04-11-2010 01:25AM

judas101 wrote: »

And how many studios in Dublin can offer all those things?

For most young bands the first studio session was usually a disaster. IMO, its better to spend a few quid on home gear until one becomes comfortable with the recording process, playing to click ect.

Also invaluable for getting ideas together.

Im not suggesting rule out studios altogether, but just use them when ready. And when that time does come, dont go for a ten a penny cheapo studio but rather a good one with good credentials.

There's a lot of guys here with vested interests in studio, hence the occasional questionable advice. This is one of the things that pisses me off about this forum.

I agree. The thing I hated with my little studio over the Summer was bands that had no clue what they were doing.

Being able to do basic recording yourself, even if it is just a USB based system, is great for bands to get an idea of what is needed in studios. Of course this isn't always the case with getting personal setups but by no means on earth would I ever tell a band to go to a studio and pay money from the get go. I would much prefer if they did their own demos and then when they knew what it entailed, come into the studio for recording.

Having said that I generally offered rehearsal sessions in the studio before recording started so it can cancel out that way.

lancewilliams · 04-11-2010 02:55PM

I agree. The thing I hated with my little studio over the Summer was bands that had no clue what they were doing.

Thats just it. If you are a band or musician making your first recording then my advice would be buy any sort of stand alone 4/8 track recorder you can find or a simple computer interface setup. Along with a mic or two (sm58's or similar)
DO NOT spend much.

Like someone said above wait till you feel you have a good idea what you want
and how to get it before you make a proper recording. The bottom line is that a good song is a good song and raw talent can be heard recorded on a phone in your bedroom! a shed full of gear can't make a bad song good!

Paolo_M · 04-11-2010 05:02PM

judas101 wrote: »

And how many studios in Dublin can offer all those things?

For most young bands the first studio session was usually a disaster. IMO, its better to spend a few quid on home gear until one becomes comfortable with the recording process, playing to click ect.

Also invaluable for getting ideas together.

Im not suggesting rule out studios altogether, but just use them when ready. And when that time does come, dont go for a ten a penny cheapo studio but rather a good one with good credentials.

There's a lot of guys here with vested interests in studio, hence the occasional questionable advice. This is one of the things that pisses me off about this forum.

I'm not affiliated with anything, I'm just a hobbyist myself at home.
My understanding from your post was that you wanted to make a decent recording of songs that you already had ready, like for a demo or whatever.
I was kinda assuming that you had already made rough-up demos at home.

To get prepared as a band/musician for a studio does not really require expensive interfaces, monitors etc.
A cheap interface and audacity (free) would let you experience the recording process, check how well you are really playing the parts, practise playing to a click, layering parts, let you hear how the arrangements will sound and play with them at no studio time cost, let friends here the ideas and get feedback and so on.
The T.Bone version of the 57 or 58 will be more than sufficient for these purposes too.

What to buy for first time recording?

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