USI National Student March on November 3rd

HQvhs · 26-10-2010 12:50PM #1

The USI are organising a student march to protest fees, grant cuts etc.
What does everyone else think?

Tbh, I'm pretty embarrassed to have the USI representing me as a student. They whine and complain but they offer no solutions. They seem incapable of coming across as mature, responsible citizens of this country.

Instead of offering a compromise solution to the funding problem - for example, a student loan or graduate tax - they have the unrealistic position of both opposing cuts and fees.

There are so many people I know out there who are really struggling with the reg fee as it is, never mind having to pay for living expenses. And we all know that finding a part-time job isn't as easy as it used to be. I would much rather have a student loan that would cover my fees and pay it back once I earn over a certain amount when I graduate, than watch our third-level system fall apart due to funding cuts.

A strong, competitive third-level system is necessary for our country. And we, as students, benefit financially from being a part of this through better jobs. I don't think it is unreasonable to ask us to pay for it. The money saved could then be directed towards grants for those who would struggle to cover living expenses at college etc.

Lenny Lovett · 26-10-2010 12:54PM

HQvhs wrote: »

The USI are organising a student march to protest fees, grant cuts etc.
What does everyone else think?

Why are they marching on a Sunday? Who'll be at the Dail to see them? Nobody. Why don't these marches take place when the Dail is sitting then, at least, the TD's (well any of them who bother turning up) might see them?

Nodin · 26-10-2010 12:57PM

March in the Week - 'why aren't they studying/working/being thankful.....'...can't win really.

XxMCRxBabyxX · 26-10-2010 01:05PM

Lenny Lovett wrote: »

Why are they marching on a Sunday? Who'll be at the Dail to see them? Nobody. Why don't these marches take place when the Dail is sitting then, at least, the TD's (well any of them who bother turning up) might see them?

Eh it's on a Wednesday.....

Lenny Lovett · 26-10-2010 01:17PM

XxMCRxBabyxX wrote: »

Eh it's on a Wednesday.....

Sorry! My Apologies!! I was looking at the October Calendar page!!:o

Msdimplesxxx · 01-11-2010 05:38PM

HQvhs,

Tbh, im quite thankful that the USI are representing me, and not you! Since 2008 the mature, responsible citiznes of this country have sat back and said nothing while TD's left, right and centre cut their wages increased their taxes and overall made their life a hell of a lot harder!!! Why? Because these same TD's claimed expenses for journies they never travelled, and wasted our country's money on fancy trips round the world!

'Compromises' have been offered and ignored! The government have left us no choice but to take to the streets!! You can sit at home, no-one is goin to force you to protest, but remember to thank us when ur reg fees are not doubled, and the numbers in your class dont drop by 10% because the people can afford to live on the pathetic grants bein offered by the government!

jock101 · 01-11-2010 05:48PM

Im sorry, but the states bust. You will just have to pay! Beg, Steal, or Borrow! I had to work and get a loan when I was in college during the Boom!:rolleyes: Protesting and marching is not going to fill the fund box of the Education budget!:cool:

HQvhs · 01-11-2010 06:06PM

Msdimplesxxx wrote: »

HQvhs,

Tbh, im quite thankful that the USI are representing me, and not you! Since 2008 the mature, responsible citiznes of this country have sat back and said nothing while TD's left, right and centre cut their wages increased their taxes and overall made their life a hell of a lot harder!!! Why? Because these same TD's claimed expenses for journies they never travelled, and wasted our country's money on fancy trips round the world!

That's right, equate me and anyone else who is suggesting a student loan or alternative system with TDs who abused the expense systems :rolleyes:
But, on that - how about the same USI who wasted students' money on class rep training, nights out etc? I see more of a resemblance there...

'Compromises' have been offered and ignored! The government have left us no choice but to take to the streets!!

There have been no compromises offered. At no point has the USI *ever* offered a compromise. All they have been demanding for it free fees, reduced registration fees and increased grants. They have never offered or suggested a student loan system. Indeed, this morning on the radio they dismissed the option as "not being on the table". Why don't they put it on the table? It seems free fees are "no longer on the table" for the government either, so we'll need some sort of compromise rather than a futile march.

You can sit at home, no-one is goin to force you to protest, but remember to thank us when ur reg fees are not doubled, and the numbers in your class dont drop by 10% because the people can afford to live on the pathetic grants bein offered by the government!

Our reg fees will be increased, regardless. And that's unfortunate, because with a decent campaign and intelligent discussion we could have had a student loan system. A large proportion of students are in favour (or at least accept the need for one), almost all university heads are in favour, most parents would be in favour, and most political parties would be in favour. Unfortunately, the USI never bothered considering it, so now we're fighting a futile campaign - another "not me" demonstration that no one will pay attention to.
As an aside - and bearing in mind no one class is representative - 75% of my class do pay fees, and they manage.

Look, no one wants to pay fees, any more than anyone would want to pay taxes. But people accept the need to pay taxes to support public services. And a lot of students accept the need to pay fees (in some form) to support their universities.

I know you can say "well isn't that what taxes are for? And sure, doesn't society benefit from all these graduates?" Well, yes, society does benefit. And that's why some state money should be invested into the third level system. But you have to remember graduates personally benefit too with higher paying jobs and increased opportunities, so it is reasonable to ask them (and not their parents) to pay for this service.

Focalbhach · 01-11-2010 09:10PM

HQvhs wrote: »

Instead of offering a compromise solution to the funding problem - for example, a student loan or graduate tax - they have the unrealistic position of both opposing cuts and fees.

Succinctly put.

smiles302 · 02-11-2010 09:10AM

This type of loan system would rock > http://vimeo.com/15761966

Manach · 02-11-2010 09:58AM

I'd agree with a loan system. As someone who is at college a second time, it concentrates the mind on the lectures knowing that these can be put into monetary terms.

Bottle_of_Smoke · 02-11-2010 10:02AM

The problem is in every student election there's some self serving twat who claims he's going to fight against fees. Someone who had a mature attitude to fees just wouldn't get near the leadership of student unions

Laminations · 02-11-2010 10:05AM

HQvhs wrote: »

Our reg fees will be increased, regardless. And that's unfortunate, because with a decent campaign and intelligent discussion we could have had a student loan system.

There would never have been discussion and you'd have never gotten a loan system. You misunderstand the governments position, they need money now and have to get it through cuts, taxes and levies. They don't have the money to loan students even if they'll get paid back more in the future.

smiles302 · 02-11-2010 11:24AM

Laminations wrote: »

There would never have been discussion and you'd have never gotten a loan system. You misunderstand the governments position, they need money now and have to get it through cuts, taxes and levies. They don't have the money to loan students even if they'll get paid back more in the future.

Is it not possible to pressure the banks into doing it? We did just bail them out.

AdMMM · 02-11-2010 01:10PM

Another year and another half-baked attempt at making a difference. The leaders of the USI jump at any opportunity to take to the streets with their fingers in their ears when it comes to listening to any rational arguments.

I can't stand that I automatically become a member of this "union" by being a student. The funds wasted on pointless piss ups and self-serving campaigns could have been used for paying for consultation with someone who actually knows how to deal with a situation like this.

Once again I'll find myself, along with the many others who oppose the USI's actions, tarred with the one brush and be described as the students who want more of everything without giving anything back in return i.e. a nuisance to society.

Lenny Lovett · 02-11-2010 01:23PM

smiles302 wrote: »

Is it not possible to pressure the banks into doing it? We did just bail them out.

Has the word not spread as far as Maynooth yet, that the banks are bust!? You're obviously not studying Economics or Finance related subjects.... Or maybe you are :rolleyes:

deise go deo · 02-11-2010 01:29PM

I am not a member of the SUI, I study in UL but I will be marching in the protest on Wednesday, The Government have wasted the boom and got us into the position we are in now, Through salaries that were out of touch with reality and a culture of incompetency they have destroyed this countries finances, When they stop giving themselves unrealistic expenses and salaries, stop allowing banks supported by public money giving themselves lavish bonuses.

The students of Ireland are not responsible for the mess the country is in now but we will be the ones who will have to live with. Much of the controversy in UL is not about reg fees but about the quality of the education the University will be able to provide. The University will not be able to pay for Labs and Tutorials
(practical based learning) and students will have to do their learning through Lectures(Rote learning)

I find it odd that little was said about the pensioners when they protested for their pension(and won) but students get slated, Especially given that we will be the ones paying for those pensions in years to come.

southsiderosie · 02-11-2010 01:49PM

Lenny Lovett wrote: »

Has the word not spread as far as Maynooth yet, that the banks are bust!? You're obviously not studying Economics or Finance related subjects.... Or maybe you are :rolleyes:

A government loan program would be revenue-neutral if not revenue generating. The only issue there is that they do not have access to cheap capital right now.

In addition, there is nothing stopping the government from inviting in commercially viable foreign banks such as Santander or Bank of America to run the program. In some ways that might be easier, as they have an excellent web-based banking system and American banks in particular have a lot of experience with student loans.

HQvhs · 02-11-2010 01:52PM

deise go deo wrote: »

I am not a member of the SUI, I study in UL but I will be marching in the protest on Wednesday, The Government have wasted the boom and got us into the position we are in now, Through salaries that were out of touch with reality and a culture of incompetency they have destroyed this countries finances, When they stop giving themselves unrealistic expenses and salaries, stop allowing banks supported by public money giving themselves lavish bonuses.

I agree with you on all of this. But it has absolutely nothing to do with whether fees should be reintroduced or not.
(And while we talk about waste - does the USI spending lavish amounts of students' money on piss-ups and "class-rep training" not bother you also?)

The students of Ireland are not responsible for the mess the country is in now but we will be the ones who will have to live with.

No, but we do have a collective responsibility. No one group in society can be singled out as having to take the brunt of cuts, and no one group can be singled out to escape cuts - especially students. Why should students escape cuts over children, the sick, the poor etc?

Much of the controversy in UL is not about reg fees but about the quality of the education the University will be able to provide. The University will not be able to pay for Labs and Tutorials
(practical based learning) and students will have to do their learning through Lectures(Rote learning)

Exactly! And in order to maintain funding fees are needed. The state cannot afford to increase funding to third level, so we (as students) must step up to the plate and pay for the service we receive if we can afford it.

I find it odd that little was said about the pensioners when they protested for their pension(and won) but students get slated, Especially given that we will be the ones paying for those pensions in years to come.

They were protesting about medical cards - and they did get slated by the media. But elderly people vote, students don't, and so politicians made a concession to them. Also, at the time there were still a considerable proportion of people who did not appreciate the true difficulties faced by the country.
Yes, but why should the taxpayers subsidise a service that will ultimately bring you personally financial benefit? Yes, society gets a return via the increased taxes you will pay; but you get an even bigger return via a higher wage and better prospects - so why should you not pay for a significant proportion of your education? (And I don't mean - why should your parents pay?)

Unfortunately, as was pointed out, the state needs money now which a loan or grad tax doesn't provide. But if the USI had been smart about it - or had listened to pretty much every university head in the country - they could have made the argument for student loans based on the long term good for the country. They could then have taken the position of "yeah, us students are willing to pay for our education - but only in a way that is equitable and doesn't prevent people from going to college". At least then if the government had refused, they would then appear to be taking a stupid, short-sighted approach - instead of the current perception whereby they are taking away a middle-class tax cut.

Sierra Oscar · 02-11-2010 02:32PM

deise go deo wrote: »

I am not a member of the SUI, I study in UL but I will be marching in the protest on Wednesday

Aren't all students members of their respective college SU's (and thus the USI)?

To the best of my knowledge every student pays a union fee out of their registration fee automatically.

In anycase, this protest is going to be very big by the looks of it - but the majority of people I know coming up for it from around the country are just taking advantage of cheap/free transport and having a night out of it.

smiles302 · 02-11-2010 02:36PM

Lenny Lovett wrote: »

Has the word not spread as far as Maynooth yet, that the banks are bust!? You're obviously not studying Economics or Finance related subjects.... Or maybe you are :rolleyes:

Why did we bail out the banks if not so they can give out loans? I'm not studying finance but there isn't any need to be rude... Didn't we secure their credit ratings? So they could borrow money? So they could give out loans... that not the point of banks?

Wolfe Tone · 02-11-2010 02:45PM

I will most probably be marching if my cold clears up sufficiently. I simply cannot afford to pay fees, I could barely pay the 1500.

deise go deo · 02-11-2010 03:08PM

HQvhs wrote: »

I agree with you on all of this. But it has absolutely nothing to do with whether fees should be reintroduced or not.

It certainally dose, Students futures should not be compromised by the mastakes of FF

(And while we talk about waste - does the USI spending lavish amounts of students' money on piss-ups and "class-rep training" not bother you also?)

If it was my money they were wasting it certainally would, but as I said I am not a member of the SUI and so it is not my place to critises how they run their Union.
UL is the only University in the country that is not a member of SUI, The ULSU is participating in the protest because they agree with it.

No, but we do have a collective responsibility. No one group in society can be singled out as having to take the brunt of cuts, and no one group can be singled out to escape cuts - especially students. Why should students escape cuts over children, the sick, the poor etc?

I agree, but it would be much easier to swallow if FF took some cuts themselves, I find it sickening to see banks that have ruined our country being supported by public money and having the indeciency to give themselves bonouses with our money. If anyone should take a cut let it be them first.

Exactly! And in order to maintain funding fees are needed. The state cannot afford to increase funding to third level, so we (as students) must step up to the plate and pay for the service we receive if we can afford it.

The problem being that many students cannot afford it, And as well as that the quality of the education will also be compromised, The University I am in is already heavily in Debt, It can not sustain the standards it has if its funding is cut.

Yes, but why should the taxpayers subsidise a service that will ultimately bring you personally financial benefit? Yes, society gets a return via the increased taxes you will pay; but you get an even bigger return via a higher wage and better prospects - so why should you not pay for a significant proportion of your education? (And I don't mean - why should your parents pay?)

The state should subsidise the education system because it is of value to the state to do so. The last thing the state should be doing is putting obsticles in the way of a productive section of society.

As for my paying, I spent most of last year working 70 hour weeks to pay for my place here, I worked enough to know that I dont want to do that kind of work again.

Unlike many students put in the Work in school to get their place, Personally I beleive that work should entitel them further education, I dont like the idea that those bourn into a wealthy family should have an advantage over those who were not, I favour a merit based system.

Unfortunately, as was pointed out, the state needs money now which a loan or grad tax doesn't provide. But if the USI had been smart about it - or had listened to pretty much every university head in the country - they could have made the argument for student loans based on the long term good for the country. They could then have taken the position of "yeah, us students are willing to pay for our education - but only in a way that is equitable and doesn't prevent people from going to college". At least then if the government had refused, they would then appear to be taking a stupid, short-sighted approach - instead of the current perception whereby they are taking away a middle-class tax cut.

It is not the middle class that will be affected worst, There are thousands of families around the state who have their first relative going to collage now. Many of these families simply could not support these relitives if fees were introduced, or if reg fees were increased.
As for A long term loan system, I find it distastfull to put someone who has tried to Improve their lot in life at an imiadiat disadvantage when they get a job by comparrison to those who did not go for further education, I think that such a debt after collage would be a disencentive for people to go to collage. During the boom many young people made the mistake of going for a trade instead of further education, Many of these people are now on the dole, Imagin how much worse that could have been had such a further disincentive been in place as long term debt.

southsiderosie · 02-11-2010 03:22PM

deise go deo wrote: »

It is not the middle class that will be affected worst, There are thousands of families around the state who have their first relative going to collage now. Many of these families simply could not support these relitives if fees were introduced, or if reg fees were increased.

Families with an income under 40K are entitled to grants, and wealthy parents can pay. The grants were always about middle-class voters.

deise go deo wrote: »

As for A long term loan system, I find it distastfull to put someone who has tried to Improve their lot in life at an imiadiat disadvantage when they get a job by comparrison to those who did not go for further education, I think that such a debt after collage would be a disencentive for people to go to collage. During the boom many young people made the mistake of going for a trade instead of further education, Many of these people are now on the dole, Imagin how much worse that could have been had such a further disincentive been in place as long term debt.

What? The lifetime earnings of college graduates are much, much higher than those who did not go to university. Yes people who work straight out of secondary school can make a lot of money in their 20s, but those jobs tend to be unstable (hence the situation of construction workers. And I would also add, if they were smart they would have saved their money when times were good, because as anyone who works in the trades with any sense knows, the labor market is very cyclical. The smart ones save and work like a dog when times are good, and buy property and/or upgrade their skills when times are bad.)

If student debt is a disincentive to go to college, then those people are not looking at the long term big picture.

The After Hours Troll · 02-11-2010 03:46PM

If the budget isn't passed or the government is voted out, then will this actually happen?

jock101 · 02-11-2010 03:52PM

The After Hours Troll wrote: »

If the budget isn't passed or the government is voted out, then will this actually happen?

And pigs might fly!

Its going to happen, the Uni and IT presidents are moaning about the lack of money to upgrade and maintain campus facilities! The taxpayer can't afford to carry the cost, so you the student will have to pony up the cash! 3k is not that bad, compared to the US etc..!

deise go deo · 02-11-2010 03:53PM

What? The lifetime earnings of college graduates are much, much higher than those who did not go to university. Yes people who work straight out of secondary school can make a lot of money in their 20s, but those jobs tend to be unstable (hence the situation of construction workers. And I would also add, if they were smart they would have saved their money when times were good, because as anyone who works in the trades with any sense knows, the labor market is very cyclical. The smart ones save and work like a dog when times are good, and buy property and/or upgrade their skills when times are bad.)

If student debt is a disincentive to go to college, then those people are not looking at the long term big picture.

That was my point, this country needs a well qualified workforce, Putting barriers in the way of that is counter productive.

deise go deo · 02-11-2010 03:54PM

jock101 wrote: »

And pigs might fly!

Its going to happen, the Uni and IT presidents are moaning about the lack of money to upgrade and maintain campus facilities! The taxpayer can't afford to carry the cost, so you the student will have to pony up the cash! 3k is not that bad, compared to the US etc..!

Maybe not bad for some, but it would force me out of education and onto the dole.

Wolfe Tone · 02-11-2010 03:54PM

What on earth do you do if you have wealthy parents who wont, or cannot, pay for whatever reasons?

southsiderosie · 02-11-2010 03:56PM

deise go deo wrote: »

That was my point, this country needs a well qualified workforce, Putting barriers in the way of that is counter productive.

If people have any sense FEES ARE NOT A BARRIER because they will earn that money back many times over during the course of a 30-year career.

At this point, I think the only issue is putting an efficient loan system into place; that's the only real barrier, not the fees themselves.

deise go deo · 02-11-2010 04:02PM

southsiderosie wrote: »

If people have any sense FEES ARE NOT A BARRIER because they will earn that money back many times over during the course of a 30-year career.

Fees are a barrier if you dont have the money.

If fees are introduced or reg fees increased, I, along with many others will not be able to afford to stay in University.

At this point, I think the only issue is putting an efficient loan system into place; that's the only real barrier, not the fees themselves.

Placing people in debt when they finish collage is a disincentive. You must rember that it is 17-18 year olds that are makeing the decisions, If they see that they can make 500 a week now or go to collage and possibly make 1000 a week but be sadled with debt many will choose to take the 500 now, as was the case during the boom years.

USI National Student March on November 3rd

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