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Would you be pissed off?

  • 30-10-2010 12:37AM
    #1
    meditraitor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,207 ✭✭✭


    My beautiful daughter is in a creche........ no different than any other couple who both work but here is the thing.


    The creche has a dual price list.....

    Apparently the county council (fingal) had some part in the setting up of the creche and the public servant who work in the local council offices get better rates because apparently they had a say in the setting up of the creche.


    We pay €997

    they pay €770

    Am I right to be annoyed that public servants are getting better rates because my tax money was used to set up a creche close to a county council office?


«1

Comments

  • #2
    Feelgood
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,191 ✭✭✭Feelgood


    Well its annoying alright, but its the same as any other line of business meditraitor. Is just the way the world works. Discounts for family members and friends, tis the same anywhere really.


    Are you more annoyed with the fact that its a public servant thats getting the better rate?. Maybe they had more than just a say in setting it up, maybe they are good friends with the owner?


  • #3
    Dr_Phil
    Closed Accounts Posts: 711 ✭✭✭Dr_Phil


    Damn, my wife is a CS we have overpaid!!!

    On a serious note, I'm not sure how it's possible, haven't heard of any rules or regulations and its a first time I hear about it. NOT a first time I hear though, that a family with a similar or slightly smaller income (+- all beneftis, medical card, rent supplement, heating and myriads of other as well as free cash every week) got from a Social Welfare has 80% things free farting in the sofa every day, while I and my wife work our arses off. Yeah, that's what pisses me off alright.


  • #4
    twowheelsonly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,273 ✭✭✭twowheelsonly


    Not really if it works out that they negotiated a group rate which is a strong possibility.
    Fair chance that the owners set up in that particular area on account of having a busy Council Office (and possibly others) in the area and the Council workers negotiated a rate. Smart thinking on their behalf really.


  • #5
    meditraitor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,207 ✭✭✭meditraitor


    Dr_Phil wrote: »
    Damn, my wife is a CS we have overpaid!!!

    On a serious note, I'm not sure how it's possible, haven't heard of any rules or regulations and its a first time I hear about it. NOT a first time I hear though, that a family with a similar or slightly smaller income (+- all beneftis, medical card, rent supplement, heating and myriads of other as well as free cash every week) got from a Social Welfare has 80% things free farting in the sofa every day, while I and my wife work our arses off. Yeah, that's what pisses me off alright.

    If you don't believe me then PI me and I will send you the details! I will gladly enlighten you!


  • #6
    meditraitor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,207 ✭✭✭meditraitor


    Feelgood wrote: »


    Are you more annoyed with the fact that its a public servant thats getting the better rate?.

    Of course man, why shouldnt I be..... I pay tax......why should the recipients of my tax have benefits that outstrip mine?


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  • #7
    Dr_Phil
    Closed Accounts Posts: 711 ✭✭✭Dr_Phil


    meditraitor wrote: »
    If you don't believe me then PI me and I will send you the details! I will gladly enlighten you!
    Having a choice of being enlightened and going for a leak I am choosing the leak. And bed follows.

    See you around, comrades.


  • #8
    Uriel.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,059 ✭✭✭Uriel.


    As other posters have said, group rates can lead to discounts for members of that group. Happens in all walks of life, not something that is specific to the PS. Happens with health insurance and other services for large organisations. ALSAA had (maybe still do) discount rates for priviliged members.

    Your post appears to be some sort of crusade to highlight perceived (even if not always true) issues with PS privilges. This is all well in good if it is relevant. but it is not in this case.


  • #9
    Uriel.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,059 ✭✭✭Uriel.


    meditraitor wrote: »
    Of course man, why shouldnt I be..... I pay tax......why should the recipients of my tax have benefits that outstrip mine?

    This is a really stupid and ignorant post.

    At least I know to disregard any future debate/points that you make.


  • #10
    meditraitor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,207 ✭✭✭meditraitor


    Dr_Phil wrote: »
    Having a choice of being enlightened and going for a leak I am choosing the leak. And bed follows.

    See you around, comrades.

    Not so machiavelian as that brother I promise....... I am proud of my dignity/ethical/moral standards and as such resent that point.


  • #11
    meditraitor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,207 ✭✭✭meditraitor


    Uriel. wrote: »
    This is a really stupid and ignorant post.

    At least I know to disregard any future debate/points that you make.

    Look man, you can of course put me on ignore but I would prefer a proper debate rather than a cowardly accusation!


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  • #12
    Jesus Wept
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,243 ✭✭✭✭Jesus Wept


    Should not be legal. Tell them you are taking the child out/going to make all parents aware of it. Call Joe Duffy too, I dunno.


  • #13
    meditraitor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,207 ✭✭✭meditraitor


    The-Rigger wrote: »
    it. Call Joe Duffy too, I dunno.

    Ahhh jasus! the call Joe duffy post........ I didn't think I was making such a bad point....


  • #14
    Jesus Wept
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,243 ✭✭✭✭Jesus Wept


    Uriel. wrote: »
    As other posters have said, group rates can lead to discounts for members of that group. Happens in all walks of life, not something that is specific to the PS. Happens with health insurance and other services for large organisations. ALSAA had (maybe still do) discount rates for priviliged members.

    Your post appears to be some sort of crusade to highlight perceived (even if not always true) issues with PS privilges. This is all well in good if it is relevant. but it is not in this case.

    With regard to health insurance:
    If they offer a policy to somebody, they must offer it to everybody.

    You can view all policies on the health insurance authority website.
    You can call up your insurance provider and insist to be put on any policy, nurses, guards, teachers, company policies, whichever.


  • #15
    Uriel.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,059 ✭✭✭Uriel.


    meditraitor wrote: »
    Look man, you can of course put me on ignore but I would prefer a proper debate rather than a cowardly accusation!

    I highly doubt it would be possible to have a "proper" debate with you.

    Say for example a gym has a standard membership rate of €800p.a.

    You as an individual walk in and you are told €800 please for 1 year.

    Next an organisation (public of private) down the road with say 100 members says - hey a number of our members might be interested in joining, can you do a special deal. The gym says to itself... hmmm if we do a deal we might get 10 subscriptions or more. so they say cool we'll do a deal were your members get a reduced rate of €750 per annum.

    That's good business sense and it's win/win for both the gym and the organisation's members.

    How you see that is an issue is beyond me.

    I was groomsman at a wedding recently. Being part of the wedding party I got a 50% discount on a hotel room in the hotel due to a deal done to get the business of the wedding. Other "normal" hotel guests had to pay full rates. Do you see a problem with this?

    taking your very ignorant previous post of someone who gets paid with exchequer money who has "priviliges" which "outstrip" yours.

    OAP widow(er) living alone on the basic OAP pension. "(your)" taxes pay that individual's pension payments - so they shouldn't receive any other assistance such as - a medical card if you don't receive the same? Are you expecting me to take you seriously?


  • #16
    Uriel.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,059 ✭✭✭Uriel.


    The-Rigger wrote: »
    With regard to health insurance:
    If they offer a policy to somebody, they must offer it to everybody.

    You can view all policies on the health insurance authority website.
    You can call up your insurance provider and insist to be put on any policy, nurses, guards, teachers, company policies, whichever.

    That's fair enough in relation to health insurance if people outside of an organisation know about a group scheme that said organisation is availing of.

    But there are plenty of other groups schemes out there that are not regulated by national authorities


  • #17
    meditraitor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,207 ✭✭✭meditraitor


    Uriel. wrote: »
    I highly doubt it would be possible to have a "proper" debate with you.

    Say for example a gym has a standard membership rate of €800p.a.

    You as an individual walk in and you are told €800 please for 1 year.

    Next an organisation (public of private) down the road with say 100 members says - hey a number of our members might be interested in joining, can you do a special deal. The gym says to itself... hmmm if we do a deal we might get 10 subscriptions or more. so they say cool we'll do a deal were your members get a reduced rate of €750 per annum.

    That's good business sense and it's win/win for both the gym and the organisation's members.

    How you see that is an issue is beyond me.

    I was groomsman at a wedding recently. Being part of the wedding party I got a 50% discount on hotel room in the hotel room due to a deal done to get the business of the wedding. Other "normal" hotel guests had to pay full rates. Do you see a problem with this?

    taking your very ignorant previous post of someone who gets paid with exchequer money who has "priviliges" which "outstrip" yours.

    OAP widow(er) living alone on the basis OAP pension. "(your)" taxes pay that individual's pension payments - so they shouldn't receive any other assistance such as - a medical card if you don't receive the same? Are you expecting me to take you seriously?

    As public bodies are they legally allowed to engage in contracts that artificially increase service costs to the average(me) taxpayer?


  • #18
    Uriel.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,059 ✭✭✭Uriel.


    meditraitor wrote: »
    As public bodies are they legally allowed to engage in contracts that artificially increase service costs to the average(me) taxpayer?

    I don't know what you mean ?


  • #19
    Feelgood
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,191 ✭✭✭Feelgood


    meditraitor wrote: »
    As public bodies are they legally allowed to engage in contracts that artificially increase service costs to the average(me) taxpayer?

    I think your beef is the fact that its a member of the public service and yeah given the history of the last couple of years I can see why you are annoyed about it.

    Uriel's post is on the money though, its just the way the world works. Its not just a creche its a business. Establishments offer incentives and discounts to groups to entice them to use their service. Then there is the standard family/friends benefits.

    To be honest my beef would be why the hell am I paying 1000 in childcare!, what kinda country am I living in. Thats just ridiculous. Crazy money.


  • #20
    btard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 391 ✭✭btard


    The-Rigger wrote: »
    Should not be legal. Tell them you are taking the child out/going to make all parents aware of it. Call Joe Duffy too, I dunno.

    I lol'd :D


  • #21
    meditraitor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,207 ✭✭✭meditraitor


    Uriel. wrote: »
    I don't know what you mean ?

    Ok..... as an explanation I will throw some figures at you

    50 kids in this creche

    the cost should be (on my costs, rounded up to 1,000)

    costs, only 20 of the kids are in 1k per month(none ps workers) and 30 are on €0.75k per month(ps workers).

    Total
    42.5k per month

    The council workers are no different so if the costs and profit are as above then each indidual child should be charged at €850 (fairness) saving me €150 per month or €1,800 per year?

    Am I right to be annoyed?


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  • #22
    Uriel.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,059 ✭✭✭Uriel.


    meditraitor wrote: »
    Ok..... as an explanation I will throw some figures at you

    50 kids in this creche

    the cost should be (on my costs, rounded up to 1,000)

    costs, only 20 of the kids are in 1k per month(none ps workers) and 30 are on €0.75k per month(ps workers).

    Total
    42.5k per month

    The council workers are no different so if the costs and profit are as above then each indidual child should be charged at €850 (fairness) saving me €150 per month or €1,800 per year?

    Am I right to be annoyed?

    No you're not right to be annoyed.

    You don't grasp how the business world works.

    Perhaps, for example, without the group scheme discount to the local council workers, only 5 children from the council would be in the creche. Where would prices be then? These are sounds business decisions made by the creche (and other service/product providers) and have absolutely nothing to do with private versus public issues.

    Jeez seriously man, I can buy 1000 pillows (example) a month from a supplier. I could get a discount of 30% on each unit. Another customer could buy 500 pillows a month from the same supplier and only get 20% discount. It's an effective business strategy that makes use of economies of scale, loyalty etc... ensures recurring sales.

    In the instance of the creche, they may save on advertising costs, internal council memo's on the group scheme providing free advertising to all the employees of the creche.

    You are not paying more because other are receiving discounts. You are paying the price the creche sees as being sustainably profitable (depending on their business acumen). The creche may make additional profit by offering the said group scheme prices


  • #23
    Feelgood
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,191 ✭✭✭Feelgood


    meditraitor wrote: »
    Ok..... as an explanation I will throw some figures at you

    50 kids in this creche

    the cost should be (on my costs, rounded up to 1,000)

    costs, only 20 of the kids are in 1k per month(none ps workers) and 30 are on €0.75k per month(ps workers).

    Total
    42.5k per month

    The council workers are no different so if the costs and profit are as above then each indidual child should be charged at €850 (fairness) saving me €150 per month or €1,800 per year?

    Am I right to be annoyed?

    Right but on that logic, say Im the creche owner.

    If you turn around to 30 public service workers in a group scheme and say hey we are increasing your fees to 850...

    Mr. public service goes to the creche down te road and says hey I have 30 guys here looking for childcare who will happily try and accomodate him.

    As a business man, why would I risk losing 30 customers and regular business just to save one individual money?.


  • #24
    Jesus Wept
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,243 ✭✭✭✭Jesus Wept


    Uriel. wrote: »
    I highly doubt it would be possible to have a "proper" debate with you.

    Say for example a gym has a standard membership rate of €800p.a.

    You as an individual walk in and you are told €800 please for 1 year.

    Next an organisation (public of private) down the road with say 100 members says - hey a number of our members might be interested in joining, can you do a special deal. The gym says to itself... hmmm if we do a deal we might get 10 subscriptions or more. so they say cool we'll do a deal were your members get a reduced rate of €750 per annum.

    That's good business sense and it's win/win for both the gym and the organisation's members.

    How you see that is an issue is beyond me.

    I was groomsman at a wedding recently. Being part of the wedding party I got a 50% discount on a hotel room in the hotel due to a deal done to get the business of the wedding. Other "normal" hotel guests had to pay full rates. Do you see a problem with this?

    taking your very ignorant previous post of someone who gets paid with exchequer money who has "priviliges" which "outstrip" yours.

    OAP widow(er) living alone on the basic OAP pension. "(your)" taxes pay that individual's pension payments - so they shouldn't receive any other assistance such as - a medical card if you don't receive the same? Are you expecting me to take you seriously?

    None of these examples are comparable.
    This is the public sector, it's a large group of people employed by the state. Giving them discounts on private child care facilities over private sector workers (whose wages contribute to the first groups) is just wrong, wrong, wrong.
    Any non biased person would see that.

    It is creating a two tier society.
    Public sector workers and their kin really are completely lose all reason and logic.
    Do you actually believe the tripe?
    Have you convinced yourself of it or do you realise it's nonsense but long may it last?
    I can understand the latter, but the former is just disturbing.
    Uriel. wrote: »
    That's fair enough in relation to health insurance if people outside of an organisation know about a group scheme that said organisation is availing of.

    But there are plenty of other groups schemes out there that are not regulated by national authorities

    Yes, but there ought to be. It is not different at all.
    It is there because of EU law (because they recognise that it is flat out wrong), but it is still kept hush hush and quiet here.


  • #25
    Welease
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,834 ✭✭✭Welease


    As with most complaints.. the devil will be in the detail..

    If the discount is applied as part of a group discount scheme, then its legal, above board and common place.
    If the discount is being applied as part of some deal which granted a licence to operate etc. then it is an abuse of powers.


  • #26
    ninty9er
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,351 ✭✭✭ninty9er


    The-Rigger wrote: »
    With regard to health insurance:
    If they offer a policy to somebody, they must offer it to everybody.

    You can view all policies on the health insurance authority website.
    You can call up your insurance provider and insist to be put on any policy, nurses, guards, teachers, company policies, whichever.
    Sure you can :rolleyes:

    You don't seem to have the grasp on the difference between a policy and a price card.

    For example:
    Me ringing VHI and getting a quote for First Plan Plus with Day to Day level 2 is €940.

    Me ringing VHI and getting a quote for First Plan Plus with Day to Day level 2 and stating that I am an eligible member of my local credit union's group scheme is €890

    The policy isn't different, the price is, so you have a massive logic fail.


  • #27
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,152 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    meditraitor wrote: »
    The council workers are no different so if the costs and profit are as above then each indidual child should be charged at €850 (fairness) saving me €150 per month or €1,800 per year?

    OK - let's say there were 5 children.

    Heating, food, light, insurance, not to mention the core wages etc = divided by 5 subscribers.

    Now let's say that (because of the group rate, 10 of a particular organisation (be it PS or not) join.

    All of the above costs are down roughly divided by 15.

    So there isn't "a straight cost per child".

    I will point out that you are still getting the rate that you agreed to, aren't you ?

    By all means, point out the above when you are signing up for the next year and ask if loyal customers can get a discount, but don't go in all guns blazing!


  • #28
    Jesus Wept
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,243 ✭✭✭✭Jesus Wept


    ninty9er wrote: »
    Sure you can :rolleyes:

    Yes... you can.
    Stop talking out your hole.

    I don't understand it because I didn't make mention of it?
    What I talked about is perfectly valid.
    I said that everybody is entitled to the same level of cover, the policies and their prices are listed on the website.
    It's upto you whether you can wrangle a discount on them.
    This allows people to call up and get a better level of care for the same price.

    Why do you take issue with this?
    Are you a public sector worker or is there just no helping you?


  • #29
    HEADHUNTER1980
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7 ✭HEADHUNTER1980


    PUBLIC SERVANTS AND THE GOVERNMENT NEED TO WAKE UP THERE IS NO REASON WHY PEOPLE SHOULD BE GETTING CHEAPER RATES ON ANYTHING JUST BECAUSE THEY WORK IN PUBLIC SECTOR ITS NOT A BUSINESS AND OVER THE LAST TEN YEARS GOD KNOWS IT HASN'T BEEN RUN LIKE ONE OTHERWISE IF WOULD HAVE GONE BUST YEARS AGO.FROM MY EXPERIENCE PRIVATE SECTOR WORKERS WORK LONGER AND HARDER THAN MOST PUBLIC SECTOR WORKERS AND THEY NEED TO REALISE THAT THE GRAVEY TRAIN HAS RUN OUT OF TRACKS


  • #30
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 27,458 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    Kill Frankenstein!!!


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  • #31
    happylarry5000
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4 ✭happylarry5000


    PUBLIC SERVANTS AND THE GOVERNMENT NEED TO WAKE UP THERE IS NO REASON WHY PEOPLE SHOULD BE GETTING CHEAPER RATES ON ANYTHING JUST BECAUSE THEY WORK IN PUBLIC SECTOR ITS NOT A BUSINESS AND OVER THE LAST TEN YEARS GOD KNOWS IT HASN'T BEEN RUN LIKE ONE OTHERWISE IF WOULD HAVE GONE BUST YEARS AGO.FROM MY EXPERIENCE PRIVATE SECTOR WORKERS WORK LONGER AND HARDER THAN MOST PUBLIC SECTOR WORKERS AND THEY NEED TO REALISE THAT THE GRAVEY TRAIN HAS RUN OUT OF TRACKS
    user_offline.gifreport.gif
    I have a co worker whose husband works in a loss making semi state who goes to the same gym as me. Their visit costs them a subsidised 1.50euro each whereas my visit costs 8.50euro. They tell me that the company is subsidising the employee's. When I put it to them that the company was making a loss they were completely oblivious to this and didnt care either. As far as I'm concerned I'm subsidising said companies staff members gym visits.


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