The only sensible thing to do

Superlativeman · 26-10-2010 09:30PM #1

This "Jeremy Kyle" culture we have has destroyed this country. We have seen a precipitous slide in every area of society and we've become a degenerate state, with no morals, no interests and no pride in ourselves.

First of all: Ireland is NOT a Capitalist country. If you honestly think that, you're a deluded fool or a member of Joe Higgins' bolsheviks. We do have the opportunity to become wealthy, but wealthy in this country is Bono, not 100,000 a year.

Bailing out banks and corporate welfare is not Capitalism. Never has been, never will be. This detrimental notion that this current economic decline is a failure of Capitalism is so asinine that it hardly renders me even to type this message - but a good cause, no matter how obvious, must be carried out.

As a Libertarian Smithian, I honestly feel like crying when I see the SWP outside my college telling everyone that it's time for the Workers of the World to unite. What they fail to comprehend is that Ireland has many features that they wouldn't change and that they would thoroughly augment.

It's the same for all parties in this country: They're all the same, everyone. FF are corrupt to the teeth, but Noonan of FG has said "we can't change FF's policies." Labour offer no alternatives, just their stupid sentiments. The independents raise no issues and are hard to find and SF are there to represent the joyriders.

Ireland is a corporate state in the way it bails out banks, corporations and gives tax exempt status and favors to the likes of Tony O'Reilly and George Soros with the Valentia scandal.

It's a Socialist state because the government is effin' huge. It's involved in all forms of society. And of course, big government leads to failures..... such as healthcare, education, etc. The education system in this country is a joke.

Here is unequivocal evidence that Ireland is a socialist country:

Medical card(free health care)
High dole(tax on the Bourgeois to keep that going)
Free education(B.T.E.A allowance, plus grants)
Income tax(commie manifesto)
Pension levy
Central bank(commie manifesto)
Minimum wage(interferes with business, like it or hate it, it's socialism)
Just interfering with business in general on stuff like, you can't reject people based on race, etc. Why not? It's your business.
Carbon taxes
TV Tax
Road Tax
Child benefits(which have been conscientiously abused)
Council houses

And many, many more.

Now, I expect to get replies such as: "He's a Anarchist scumbag, who hates poor people." It should be up to pub owners to decide if they want to let people smoke in their premises, not the government, for example. But most archetypal know it alls want the government to tell them what way to dress and say "it's Capitalism."

Well, I'm poor, and my family are as well, but they're all hard working and are getting taxed left right and center for jobs that pay a few extra euro above the minimum wage.

Adam Smith mentioned none of the above. If you want true freedom, you have to have an anarchist society, that's the way it has to be. There is no other alternative than to gradual reduce all these things and stop the abuse of the system. Big government cannot work and either can the government looking after the people like a Nanny state.

I'm not saying we should go anarchist straight away, that would be stupid. But it needs to be brought in over time. I'm not even sure I'd survive in a thoroughly free society, but it's better than being a slave to Brussels and Anglo Irish.

What do we want? Freedom or this:http:

??????????????????????????????

Your call!

Libertarians of the world, Unite!

Liam Byrne · 26-10-2010 09:43PM

Count me out.

Superlativeman · 26-10-2010 09:46PM

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Count me out.

Why's that?

ilovelamp2000 · 26-10-2010 09:47PM

So how would this anarchy work ?

Superlativeman · 26-10-2010 09:50PM

Rosco1982 wrote: »

So how would this anarchy work ?

Think of America from 1776 to 1913 - without slavery and gender discrimination.

ilovelamp2000 · 26-10-2010 09:57PM

Superlativeman wrote: »

Think of America from 1776 to 1913 - without slavery and gender discrimination.

History isn't my strong point, you'll need to educate me.

20Cent · 26-10-2010 10:03PM

Libertarianism is just a made up thing.
Its like saying you're a Jedi or a Klingon.

Superlativeman · 26-10-2010 10:04PM

Rosco1982 wrote: »

History isn't my strong point, you'll need to educate me.

I don't understand what you want to know?

If you're trying to be smart and are going to ask "that" question: "But who's going to build the roads?" There is no point in talking.

Superlativeman · 26-10-2010 10:05PM

20Cent wrote: »

Libertarianism is just a made up thing.
Its like saying you're a Jedi or a Klingon.

Just like that - Libertarianism has been debunked.

Liam Byrne · 26-10-2010 10:07PM

Superlativeman wrote: »

Why's that?

Any libertarian theories I have seen involve everyone doing whatever the hell they want to make money, regardless of whose lives they affect or even ruin in the process.

As someone who believes in a fair day's wage for a fair day's pay, objects strongly to profiteering based on core things that people need and to ANY profits by anyone who doesn't add something to the chain (e.g. currency speculators just making things more expensive) and also believes that no-one anywhere is worth more than €150,000 a year, I can't subscribe to anything that you have outlined.

Oh - and the racism angle is objectionable.

Superlativeman · 26-10-2010 10:17PM

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Any libertarian theories I have seen involve everyone doing whatever the hell they want to make money, regardless of whose lives they affect or even ruin in the process.

As someone who believes in a fair day's wage for a fair day's pay, objects strongly to profiteering based on core things that people need and to ANY profits by anyone who doesn't add something to the chain (e.g. currency speculators just making things more expensive) and also believes that no-one anywhere is worth more than €150,000 a year, I can't subscribe to anything that you have outlined.

Oh - and the racism angle is objectionable.

You've a right cheek. One of these egalitarians I see.

I'm going after this post, but I'd like to ask something to all the egalitarians out there.

Take homelessness for an example. I'm sure you and others would agree the government should be doing something to cure homelessness. A very noble thing I might add.

My question is: How many of you have actually volunteered at a homeless shelter or went on a soup run or invited a homeless person into your house to stay when they've asked for a place to kip?

I doubt any of you have, not just on here, but all over the world. But you want the government to do it. And how do they solve issues like this? Ummm, hmmmm, TAXES! On who? Ummmm, hmmmm, the middle class. And the middle class and upper class are the ones who are an anethma to the workers in this country, yet they pay all their benefits and pay for their council houses.

Let's be clear, the government gives you nothing. They "take" from others and give it to you.

The fact that you just believe that no one should earn over a certain amount is disgusting, outdated and not practical. You're a Liberal Fascist. Read the Fascist Manifesto, that's you. An FDR new deal sponger.

Unbelievable, sick of these socialists, trying to stop us young people from studying hard and becoming rich.

Mister men · 26-10-2010 10:18PM

Thanks but no thanks.

Liam Byrne · 26-10-2010 10:43PM

Superlativeman wrote: »

You've a right cheek. One of these egalitarians I see.

Haven't a clue what egalitarians are, but I'll Google it to see if you're anyway close.

TBH, I'm not reallly any form of extremism, believing life is about balance; so I'm not left or right, socialist or capitalist.....in fact, if there's a label I'm probably steering clear of it, and that applies to everything in my life from political views to clothes.

In fact, the only label I've ever found appropriate was my star sign; the scales = balance.

Superlativeman wrote: »

Let's be clear, the government gives you nothing. They "take" from others and give it to you.

No - they take from me to give to bankers and gamblers, actually. I have never received a cent from the Government, so less of the idiotic jumping to conclusions, thank you very much.

Superlativeman wrote: »

The fact that you just believe that no one should earn over a certain amount is disgusting, outdated and not practical. You're a Liberal Fascist. Read the Fascist Manifesto, that's you. An FDR new deal sponger.

Post reported for talking through the wrong opening in your anatomy about someone you know nothing about. I have never, and will never be, a sponger. :mad:

Oh - and your "the government takes from the public and gives to you" philosophy ? All you've done is replace that with "a company takes from consumers and gives to you", because someone has to pay your over-inflated salary while people struggle to make ends meet on the necessities just because you want a higher salary.

ei.sdraob · 26-10-2010 11:35PM

Liam Byrne wrote: »

and also believes that no-one anywhere is worth more than €150,000 a year

you mention racism which is a form of discrimination based on race
yet support "maxiumum-wageism" (woot i invented a word for this socialist phenomena :P) which discriminates based income and ability...

something to think about Liam

Liam Byrne · 26-10-2010 11:37PM

ei.sdraob wrote: »

you mention racism which is a form of discrimination based on race
yet support "maxiumum-wageism" (woot i invented a word for this socialist phenomena :P) which discriminates based income and ability...

something to think about Liam

Ah now.....read what I said.....

I said that "I believe that no-one is worth more than that".

I didn't say that I would enforce that, and as long as they're not making more by forcing me to pay more for necessities, either directly or indirectly, then I've no argument with them.

ei.sdraob · 26-10-2010 11:44PM

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Ah now.....read what I said.....

I said that "I believe that no-one is worth more than that".

I didn't say that I would enforce that, and as long as they're not making more by forcing me to pay more for necessities, either directly or indirectly, then I've no argument with them.

I understand

I dont like anyone on public payroll earning crazy amounts like this either.
Simply because we have only one government/civil/public service and have no choice but to pay to/for this lot via taxes or be thrown in jail.

On the other hand i could vote with my wallet if i am disgusted with a CEO of a private company and go to the competitor, if enough people do this the company wont be around to pay salaries like that

so here we have the market and competition at work

there is no competitive forces unfortunately in the government/civil/public sector and this leads to waste and a sense of "unfairness"

Liam Byrne · 26-10-2010 11:51PM

ei.sdraob wrote: »

I understand

I dont like anyone on public payroll earning crazy amounts like this either.
Simply because we have only one government/civil/public service and have no choice but to pay to/for this lot via taxes or be thrown in jail.

On the other hand i could vote with my wallet if i am disgusted with a CEO of a private company and go to the competitor, if enough people do this the company wont be around to pay salaries like that so here we have the market and competition at work

there is no competitive forces unfortunately in the government/civil/public sector and this leads to waste and a sense of "unfairness"

That's fair comment, but I do still think we disagree in some areas such as currency, oil, water, basic foods and basic accommodation - all of which should be protected from profiteering. As, indeed, should military machines, which impose a requirement for manufacturing wars in order to return a profit.

Basically I believe that anyone who contributes should be rewarded, and contrary to our friendly OP's suggestions, I believe there should be no dole for doing nothing.....if the state is paying you you should be on-call to them for community work and be glad that they are giving you the means to survive until you get a job.

Liam Byrne · 26-10-2010 11:54PM

Also let's not forget that the 'competitiveness' (read:greed and banks wanting to get in on the act) is what screwed up our economy.

ei.sdraob · 27-10-2010 12:04AM

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Also let's not forget that the 'competitiveness' (read:greed and banks wanting to get in on the act) is what screwed up our economy.

Actually it was the complete lack of regulation and accountability (socializing private losses was added insult on top of this!) that screwed our economy

some basic regulation (not of the top down totalitarian/authoritarian control freak type) is required,
to supervise the kids playing with matches and ensure and a competitive environment exists.

Liam Byrne · 27-10-2010 12:12AM

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Actually it was the complete lack of regulation and accountability (socializing private losses was added insult on top of this!) that screwed our economy

some basic regulation (not of the top down totalitarian/authoritarian control freak type) is required,
to supervise the kids playing with matches and ensure and a competitive environment exists.

On mobile so too hard to multiquote, but lack of regulation combined with greed and profiteering; if that didn't go on, it could ne argued that regulation wouldn't be required.

No need for traffic cops if no-one's stupid / reckless / inconsiderate enough to speed.

So - as I said it's all about getting the right balance.

southsiderosie · 27-10-2010 12:16AM

Superlativeman wrote: »

This "Jeremy Kyle" culture we have has destroyed this country. We have seen a precipitous slide in every area of society and we've become a degenerate state, with no morals, no interests and no pride in ourselves.

First of all: Ireland is NOT a Capitalist country. If you honestly think that, you're a deluded fool or a member of Joe Higgins' bolsheviks. We do have the opportunity to become wealthy, but wealthy in this country is Bono, not 100,000 a year.

Bailing out banks and corporate welfare is not Capitalism. Never has been, never will be. This detrimental notion that this current economic decline is a failure of Capitalism is so asinine that it hardly renders me even to type this message - but a good cause, no matter how obvious, must be carried out.

As a Libertarian Smithian, I honestly feel like crying when I see the SWP outside my college telling everyone that it's time for the Workers of the World to unite. What they fail to comprehend is that Ireland has many features that they wouldn't change and that they would thoroughly augment.

It's the same for all parties in this country: They're all the same, everyone. FF are corrupt to the teeth, but Noonan of FG has said "we can't change FF's policies." Labour offer no alternatives, just their stupid sentiments. The independents raise no issues and are hard to find and SF are there to represent the joyriders.

Ireland is a corporate state in the way it bails out banks, corporations and gives tax exempt status and favors to the likes of Tony O'Reilly and George Soros with the Valentia scandal.

It's a Socialist state because the government is effin' huge. It's involved in all forms of society. And of course, big government leads to failures..... such as healthcare, education, etc. The education system in this country is a joke.

Here is unequivocal evidence that Ireland is a socialist country:
Medical card(free health care)

High dole(tax on the Bourgeois to keep that going)

Free education(B.T.E.A allowance, plus grants)

Income tax(commie manifesto)

Pension levy

Central bank(commie manifesto)

Minimum wage(interferes with business, like it or hate it, it's socialism)

Just interfering with business in general on stuff like, you can't reject people based on race, etc. Why not? It's your business.

Carbon taxes

TV Tax

Road Tax

Child benefits(which have been conscientiously abused)

Council houses

And many, many more.

Now, I expect to get replies such as: "He's a Anarchist scumbag, who hates poor people." It should be up to pub owners to decide if they want to let people smoke in their premises, not the government, for example. But most archetypal know it alls want the government to tell them what way to dress and say "it's Capitalism."

Well, I'm poor, and my family are as well, but they're all hard working and are getting taxed left right and center for jobs that pay a few extra euro above the minimum wage.

Adam Smith mentioned none of the above. If you want true freedom, you have to have an anarchist society, that's the way it has to be. There is no other alternative than to gradual reduce all these things and stop the abuse of the system. Big government cannot work and either can the government looking after the people like a Nanny state.

I'm not saying we should go anarchist straight away, that would be stupid. But it needs to be brought in over time. I'm not even sure I'd survive in a thoroughly free society, but it's better than being a slave to Brussels and Anglo Irish.

What do we want? Freedom or this:http:

??????????????????????????????

Your call!

Libertarians of the world, Unite!

Your youtube link doesn't work.

Oh, and I'll pass on whatever it is you are offering, because frankly I can't tell what you are even talking about. Plus I am generally wary of college students using lots of superlatives and waving around copies of The Wealth of Nations, Capitalism and Freedom and/or Atlas Shrugged.

SkepticOne · 27-10-2010 12:36AM

Youtube link from the op if anyone is interested:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KMrJGz3EIg

Permabear · 27-10-2010 06:23AM

This post has been deleted.

Laminations · 27-10-2010 08:40AM

Threads should automatically get closed when DF starts to gloat. :P

OP can you show me any examples of libertarianism working on any kind of large scale? Or do you believe in it for the same reasons people believe in God, cos in the absence of all proof it still sounds nice

Lockstep · 27-10-2010 08:55AM

Ireland is socialist?
The Heritage Foundation would disagree with you, we're one of the freest economies in the world.

I presume your response will be that "It just shows how socialist the world is", or rather, it shows how unrealistic a completely laissez-faire state is.

You try to cherry pick 19th century America: a nation of conscription, slavery, the disenfranchisement of women and non-whites, the banning of trade unions. An oligarchy.

by the way, the fact your initial post has you claiming to be poor makes to me believes this isn't the case. It seems the more middle class a person is, the more eager they are to claim that they are poor, be they Marxist (to show how in tune they are with the working class) or libertarian (to try and claim that they started from nothing and pulled themselves up by their own bootstraps)

Lockstep · 27-10-2010 09:01AM

Superlativeman wrote: »

[*]Medical card(free health care)

For those on low incomes. We don't have an NHS.

Superlativeman wrote: »

[*]High dole(tax on the Bourgeois to keep that going)

High dole? yes that's true.

Superlativeman wrote: »

[*]Free education(B.T.E.A allowance, plus grants)

It's not 'free'. It's funded by taxation.

Superlativeman wrote: »

[*]Income tax(commie manifesto)

A holdover from the income tax brought in by Robert Peel (filthy commie he was)

Superlativeman wrote: »

[*]Central bank(commie manifesto)

Fecking European bureacratic overlords.

Superlativeman wrote: »

[*]Minimum wage(interferes with business, like it or hate it, it's socialism)

No, it's not. It's a sign of a regulated capitalist economy.

Superlativeman wrote: »

[*]Child benefits(which have been conscientiously abused)

Frankly, we really need to encourage people to have more kids. Aging population and all that jazz.

If you're family are earning slightly above the minimum wage, I don't know what the problem is. I earn that myself (€9 an hour) and the taxation is fairly low.

ei.sdraob · 27-10-2010 09:33AM

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

"Government is the great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else." - Frederic Bastiat

Liam Byrne wrote: »

On mobile so too hard to multiquote, but lack of regulation combined with greed and profiteering; if that didn't go on, it could ne argued that regulation wouldn't be required.

No need for traffic cops if no-one's stupid / reckless / inconsiderate enough to speed.

So - as I said it's all about getting the right balance.

Greed and profiteering is what made the phone/computer you typing this on and network connections the message is being sendover.

It is part of our human nature and will to improve ourselves, there is nothing evil about making a profit, the guest for profit has led to many great things (and bad of course, but that says more about us as humans...).

Socialists think that humans can somehow be engineered to overcome our basic drives, that is simply perverse, yes we will evolve over time (and have so already) but not on a short timescale, greed will be with us for a long long time

You know if the banks were isolated and their losses not socialised we now would have moved on. Under capitalism failure should not be rewarded like this.

Laminations · 27-10-2010 09:44AM

ei.sdraob wrote: »

"Government is the great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else." - Frederic Bastiat

Ah well because Bastiat said it then it must be true. This makes equal sense

Libertarianism is the great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else. - Laminations

And you can quote me on that

Laminations · 27-10-2010 09:55AM

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Socialists think that humans can somehow be engineered to overcome our basic drives, that is simply perverse, yes we will evolve over time (and have so already) but not on a short timescale, greed will be with us for a long long time

It's not the preserve of socialisists, most psychologists worth their salt recognise the power and influence of classical and operant conditioning. We are conditioned beings who have learned through creation of and engagement with social structures (like government) to overcome our basic drives. Without regulation our basic drive for immediate self gratification would kill us off. It's like goldielocks, being too statist is bad and heads towards authoritarian socialism/fascism, too little state intervention and 'the good of the people' is lost and we move into the magical realm of libertarianism, so utopian and perfect that it's not practised anywhere as a social/political order.

This government isn't perfect, far from it but that does not give you the ammunition to say Government is bad. And what does the socialisation of profits in this current crisis have to do with this? Very few agree with that

hobochris · 27-10-2010 10:00AM

Superlativeman wrote: »

First of all: Ireland is NOT a Capitalist country. If you honestly think that, you're a deluded fool or a member of Joe Higgins' bolsheviks.

You lost me here,

We use money to barter for goods.

A majority of the population spend most of their lives seeking to gain more money through work to improve their lives and consume more goods.

We have a consumer culture which is the catalyst of capitalist society.

We have some parts of society with socialist ideals, we use some of our capital gains to appease these ideals.

Property is privately owned, a majority of production is owned and run privately for private gain.

Definition of capitalism as per Wikipedia:

Capitalism is an economic system in which the means of production are privately owned and operated for a private profit; decisions regarding supply, demand, price, distribution, and investments are made by private actors in the market rather than by central planning by the government; profit is distributed to owners who invest in businesses, and wages are paid to workers employed by businesses and companies.

Like it or not, We are a capitalist country.

we merely flirt with the idea of socialism, to implement it on any notable scale would fail.

Ellian · 27-10-2010 10:09AM

Superlativeman wrote: »

The fact that you just believe that no one should earn over a certain amount is disgusting, outdated and not practical.

Why is it disgusting to say that there should be an uper fixed point on your earnings (although granted, there could be plenty of healthy back and forth on where that line should actually be?) Put it another way. It's a finite world, with a finite amount of resources and in this world where 25,000 children a day die from lack of clean water why is it "disgusting" to believe that no matter how smart or industrious you are, there simply comes a point where you do not need nor deserve any more?

The only sensible thing to do

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