Rooney not signing a new contract?

Iago wrote: »

United as a unit are and always will be greater than the sum of their parts. They will finish at least in the top 3/4 for the next 2-3 seasons and I fully expect them to be genuinely competing for the league and CL within 3-4 seasons.

There was no need for this cycle. Lots of clubs take a winning team and push on and develop it. Look at Barca. We aren't able to do that because we've **** all money. 6 years ago, we could have bought 4 world class players after Ronaldo left.

Can't see him starting for Utd again, maybe coming on as a sub.

He's really done it this time :cool:

And no way are Arsenal going to swoop for him. I think Chelski or Real are the only real options.

everdead.ie wrote: »

It's to there benefit to say that it puts pressure on the owners

But shows themselves up to be opportunist clueless muppets and turns a lot of the fans against them, perhaps they have weighed it up and considered the pros and cons of their stance but somehow I doubt it.

Iago wrote: »

While I don't completely disagree with the thrust of your post Barca aren't the be all and end all. They've had significant periods of not winning anything as well, and their recent record follows a very similar cycle to Uniteds

No league titles between '99 - '04, and '06 - '09
No Spanish (league & FA) cup between '98 -'08
No Spanish Super cup between '06 - '09
European cup won in '06 & '09

So between '06 - '09 they won pretty much nothing, then won everything they went for that season. They only won the league and super cup last year. The year after United won the Champions league they won the league and the league cup as well as making the final of the CL.

They're currently 3rd in La Liga (United are 4th) and are top of their group in the CL with 7 points (same as United)

There is no such thing as a Spanish League Cup and how can they win a Spanish Super Cup if they havn't won the Copa Del Rey or La Liga. The Copa Del Rey is just used for squad players so no major loss there and the Spanish Super Cup is like the Community Shield - no big deal.

Currently Barca are in a much better position than Utd. and are a much better team at this point. They might be short of funds for transfers but they have the best starting XI in World football. None of their players are looking to leave and if they had the cash Rooney atm would much rather play for Barca than Utd.

Plus what are you on about Barca won the League in 08-09 season plus the Copa Dey Rey in that year. That was the season they won every competition they entered. Barca have only failed to win the League twice since 2004.

Iago wrote: »

[x] missed the point completely

Next time at least get your facts right.

Iago wrote: »

but with the exception of Chelsea & City there's no club in England positioned to invest significantly more than United can and will over the next few years.

I was all like 'Peow! Wrong! Arsenal are in a much healthier financial state!', then I realised you were right as while we can outspend United, there's not a hope we will.

Iago wrote: »

While I don't completely disagree with the thrust of your post Barca aren't the be all and end all. They've had significant periods of not winning anything as well, and their recent record follows a very similar cycle to Uniteds

No league titles between '99 - '04, and '06 - '09
No Spanish (league & FA) cup between '98 -'08
No Spanish Super cup between '06 - '09
European cup won in '06 & '09

So between '06 - '09 they won pretty much nothing, then won everything they went for that season. They only won the league and super cup last year. The year after United won the Champions league they won the league and the league cup as well as making the final of the CL.

They're currently 3rd in La Liga (United are 4th) and are top of their group in the CL with 7 points (same as United)

First off, I'm just talking about recent history. I understand that teams go in cycles in general, but sometimes they dont if investment is right, which was my point.

Barca won the treble in 08-09, and after that, invested heavily, heavily in their squad. They reached a peak, and pushed on from it. That's how you maintain a team without a down-cycle. Last year they won the league. What did they do? They bought David Vila replacing a previous 60 million pound buy! They are trying to stop the down-cycle, or at least minimize it.

What did we do after our double? Bought Berbatov, but then sold Ronaldo, and are now selling Rooney. We are embracing our down-cycle, which Rooney can see.


Sure you can view Fergie as currently focusing on the youth team which will eventually reach a peak in x years. And yes we have a young squad who if they all make it, we'll be set for years to come. We could see a

---Rafael-Evans-Vidic-Fabio
-Bebe-Anderson-Fletcher-Nani

---

Chicho---Macheda---

line up in 4 years time. But it means that we've just wasted the peaks of Evra, Vidic, Berbatov and Ferdinand.

This is why Rooney is leaving. Because for whatever reason, whether it be money or planning, Fergie is aiming to win the title again in 1-2 years, not this year. What if its 3 years? Rooney will be 27 by then, and there's a good chance he won't be a player that plays long into his 30s. If he moves to a club that is at the peak, or about to be at the peak of their cycle, like say Chelsea or Madrid, then he's got a better chance of winning titles.

That said, if he moves to City, I'll firmly believe its for the money.

Forgetting about the rights and wrongs of the debate for a moment , Anyone else think if Rooney is sidelined for the next 2 months that he'll will suffer badly physically ,
Always thought he was the type of player who needs to be training /playing week in /week out to stay in shape , A Gazza type if you want ,the type at will always have to fight a little bit harder than others to stay on top of his fitness ....

PHB wrote: »

First off, I'm just talking about recent history. I understand that teams go in cycles in general, but sometimes they dont if investment is right, which was my point.

Barca won the treble in 08-09, and after that, invested heavily, heavily in their squad. They reached a peak, and pushed on from it. That's how you maintain a team without a down-cycle. Last year they won the league. What did they do? They bought David Vila replacing a previous 60 million pound buy! They are trying to stop the down-cycle, or at least minimize it.

What did we do after our double? Bought Berbatov, but then sold Ronaldo, and are now selling Rooney. We are embracing our down-cycle, which Rooney can see.


Sure you can view Fergie as currently focusing on the youth team which will eventually reach a peak in x years. And yes we have a young squad who if they all make it, we'll be set for years to come. We could see a

---Rafael-Evans-Vidic-Fabio
-Bebe-Anderson-Fletcher-Nani

---

Chicho---Macheda---

line up in 4 years time. But it means that we've just wasted the peaks of Evra, Vidic, Berbatov and Ferdinand.

This is why Rooney is leaving. Because for whatever reason, whether it be money or planning, Fergie is aiming to win the title again in 1-2 years, not this year. What if its 3 years? Rooney will be 27 by then, and there's a good chance he won't be a player that plays long into his 30s. If he moves to a club that is at the peak, or about to be at the peak of their cycle, like say Chelsea or Madrid, then he's got a better chance of winning titles.

That said, if he moves to City, I'll firmly believe its for the money.

as I said I don't disagree completely with your point, but every team has peaks and troughs. The Barca team that won everything before them is still in the upward part of their cycle, and yet if you base it just on results they are technically in decline at the moment

There are two other things to consider around your overall point

1) Fergie bought players even prior to that Champions League win that were judged to be good enough to keep United at the top of the cycle rather than start the downward trend. Since 2007 we've brought in

Nani £18m
Anderson £18m
Da Silva twins £5.2m
Tevez £10m
Berbatov £30m
Tosic £7.5m (although this has been disputed and I really don't know what the actual amount was)
De Leat £1m
Obertan £3m
Valencia £17m
Mame Diouf £6m
Hernandez £10m
Smalling £12m
Bebe £7.5m
Hargreaves £17m
Richardson £5m

you could argubly add 2006 into that
Carrick £18m
Kuszcack £3m

Without 2006 that's 16 players and £170m or so, with 2006 it's 18 players and £191m

It's a full squad worth of players and combined with the older guard that was already in place it should and was enough to keep United at the top of the league and fighting in Europe.

This is the first year where real questions are being asked about United in terms of overall performances and ability to push on. At this stage if Nani, Anderson, Hargreaves, Carrick, Tosic et al where living up to their billing then we'd all be slapping each other on the back about how great we are.

---

Van Dar Sar

---

Rafael

---

Vidic

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Ferdinand

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Evra

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Anderson--Fletcher---Hargreaves

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Valencia

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Nani

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Rooney

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Bench: Kuszcack, O'Shea, Fabio, Evans, Scholes, Giggs, Berbatov

or any combination of the First XI and the bench for the game in question.

On paper that team would be close to being the strongest First XI in the league, and would remove the reliance and pressure on the likes of Scholes & Giggs to turn back the years and carry the team along.

However Nani hasn't lived up to his billing, Anderson looks lost and Hargreaves is a permanent crock. Unfortunately you can't return the players and say "sorry about that, but they're not fulfilling their potential so give us back our money" That £190m is spent whether we like it or not.

2) Outside of English players or young African/South American players, not many would choose England as their destination of choice.

Ferguson has highlighted this as an issue over the summer (I'm guessing it was Villa) but it's a consistent problem. This isn't a problem that's likely to go away, especially when the players pay a lot more tax in England than they do on the continent.


~~~~~~~~~~~

People also seem to forget that Ferguson spent £30m this summer on Smalling, Hernandez & Bebe (granted Smalling was January) so United are still investing in the squad, regardless of how convenient it is for a player to use it as an excuse.

Obviously they won't want to have Rooney around if he is going to be a destructive influence and he may not leave in January so there could be a loan opportunity there. There is also the fact that it could increase his value if he starts playing well again?
Could anyone else see this?

fryup wrote: »

is it really beyond possibility??

think about it, Liverpool have just got a brash new owner and what better way to make your mark on the transfer field than to get the Main marksman from your biggest rivals...watch this space i say.

I wouldnt describe Liverpool's new owners as "brash"!

He is good friends with Gerrard, but I don't think Liverpool will be pushing for trophies in the immediate future!!

fryup wrote: »

is it really beyond possibility??

think about it, Liverpool have just got a brash new owner and what better way to make your mark on the transfer field than to get the Main marksman from your biggest rivals...watch this space i say.

I honestly think you are living in fantasy lasnd if you think Rooney is heading to Liverpool.

It was in August that he declared his intent to leave, by which time he more or less had a deal done with a new club(imo). Liverpool were still owned by Hicks and the razor man.

Even if he hasnt done a deal yet, I`m sure Liverpool arent even in his thoughts.

Iago wrote: »

Given that Porto had paid €7m for 65% of him in 2005, and he'd helped them to back to back league titles it's probably not surprising that they wanted a large chunk of money.

Didn't he play like 10 games for Porto before his move?