Time to return Third level fees

jock101 · 18-10-2010 06:12PM #1

Is it time to reintroduce third level fees in Ireland in the next budget for next year as it costs 3-4 billion euro a year, and pump the money into primary and secondary education. Have we too many over educated people with no work for!

Denerick · 18-10-2010 06:32PM

I'm agnostic on 3rd level fee's. On the one hand, it enabled me to do an intellectually satisfying yet intrinisically worthless degree, on the other, it enabled me to do an intellectaully satisfying yet intrinsically worthless degree. No doubt I would have thought twice if it was going to cost me 10k per annum.

Eliot Rosewater · 18-10-2010 06:55PM

I'm a student myself, and my attitude towards fees is at odds with most of my peers.

I don't believe in universal free fees. There's some very compelling arguments for providing positive opportunity to intelligent young adults who would otherwise not have chance to go to college. Such arguments are made stronger when one thinks of the economic utility of science and engineering qualifications. All well and good.

Now, the students will be out protesting on November 3rd and it's worth getting one thing straight: they are not fighting for the poorest in society, though they'll try and paint it that way. The least well off are covered by the grants scheme and social welfare, and they don't pay registration fees and probably wouldn't be liable for full fees. The free fees system is, and always has been, for the prime benefit of the middle class folk (like myself).

There are a number of good arguments for fees. Firstly, universities are under-funded and are in dire need of extra revenue if they're to stay competitive on the world stage, the stage that matters in a globalised economy. Most Students' Union will ironically tell same. The best way to fund them is to get the people using their services to contribute more.

Secondly, the free fees system creates a huge culture of complacency. It is, for instance, considered an actual achievement in student society to go to all your lectures in one week. Routinely missing lectures (which the government is paying for) is not something that is given much thought. In fact I talked to a fellow last year, in my degree programme, who missed all of the second semester. He didn't get through to second year, you'll be surprised to hear.

Bottle_of_Smoke · 18-10-2010 07:11PM

I think we should have the same system as the UK but pay about twice what they do.

ie the government lends you the price of the fees with an inflation linked loan. When you are in employment earning above a cut off rate your loan is deducted from your salary. If you wish you can pay up front or pay it off earlier.

I'm well aware graduates pay more taxes in the end, but they also benefit personally from education financially and otherwise.

I think 7K a year is fair, you come out of college with a debt of 28k which is only repayable upon commencing employment. Therefore it never hangs over you like a bank debt. Wanna go travelling for a year? your repayments go on hold until you return to work. If you earn your full degree you get a 10% discount on your fees

These conditions mean the cost isn't offputting for anyone. I wouldnt ever go higher than 7k a year though - as that would begin to put some people off

no need for means testing as everyone is in the same boat not having to pay fees up front. simples.

Bottle_of_Smoke · 18-10-2010 07:13PM

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

I'm a student myself, and my attitude towards fees is at odds with most of my peers.

I don't believe in universal free fees. There's some very compelling arguments for providing positive opportunity to intelligent young adults who would otherwise not have chance to go to college. Such arguments are made stronger when one thinks of the economic utility of science and engineering qualifications. All well and good.

Now, the students will be out protesting on November 3rd and it's worth getting one thing straight: they are not fighting for the poorest in society, though they'll try and paint it that way. The least well off are covered by the grants scheme and social welfare, and they don't pay registration fees and probably wouldn't be liable for full fees. The free fees system is, and always has been, for the prime benefit of the middle class folk (like myself).

There are a number of good arguments for fees. Firstly, universities are under-funded and are in dire need of extra revenue if they're to stay competitive on the world stage, the stage that matters in a globalised economy. Most Students' Union will ironically tell same. The best way to fund them is to get the people using their services to contribute more.

Secondly, the free fees system creates a huge culture of complacency. It is, for instance, considered an actual achievement in student society to go to all your lectures in one week. Routinely missing lectures (which the government is paying for) is not something that is given much thought. In fact I talked to a fellow last year, in my degree programme, who missed all of the second semester. He didn't get through to second year, you'll be surprised to hear.

Great post.

amacachi · 18-10-2010 09:21PM

I'd sooner just have fees for all with loans in place. Everyone! :P

Wolfe Tone · 18-10-2010 09:31PM

If fees are brought back I am fcuked.

Denerick · 18-10-2010 09:32PM

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

If fees are brought back I am fcuked.

You should avoid it if you're heading into college this year.

Wolfe Tone · 18-10-2010 09:34PM

Denerick wrote: »

You should avoid it if you're heading into college this year.

I am in first year now, if they are brought back would I have to pay it next year would I not?

Denerick · 18-10-2010 09:37PM

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

I am in first year now, if they are brought back would I have to pay it next year would I not?

I think fee's would only ever apply from the first years entering college. Thats the way they did it in the UK anyway.

amacachi · 18-10-2010 09:38PM

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

I am in first year now, if they are brought back would I have to pay it next year would I not?

No way to know for sure, though haven't they had disclaimers for the last few years saying something about how you may be liable for fees in future years? They seem to have all the options open to them.

jock101 · 18-10-2010 09:40PM

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

I am in first year now, if they are brought back would I have to pay it next year would I not?

Oh yes! The Batman Batty O'Thief (FF Minister of education at the time), said last year that fees were not being introduced last year, but he added that if they do return. That current students should not think that they will not have to pay for the rest of the course year left, just because they were in college before the first year they will be introduced

!

metrovelvet · 18-10-2010 09:49PM

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

I'm a student myself, and my attitude towards fees is at odds with most of my peers.

I don't believe in universal free fees. There's some very compelling arguments for providing positive opportunity to intelligent young adults who would otherwise not have chance to go to college. Such arguments are made stronger when one thinks of the economic utility of science and engineering qualifications. All well and good.

Now, the students will be out protesting on November 3rd and it's worth getting one thing straight: they are not fighting for the poorest in society, though they'll try and paint it that way. The least well off are covered by the grants scheme and social welfare, and they don't pay registration fees and probably wouldn't be liable for full fees. The free fees system is, and always has been, for the prime benefit of the middle class folk (like myself).

There are a number of good arguments for fees. Firstly, universities are under-funded and are in dire need of extra revenue if they're to stay competitive on the world stage, the stage that matters in a globalised economy. Most Students' Union will ironically tell same. The best way to fund them is to get the people using their services to contribute more.

Secondly, the free fees system creates a huge culture of complacency. It is, for instance, considered an actual achievement in student society to go to all your lectures in one week. Routinely missing lectures (which the government is paying for) is not something that is given much thought. In fact I talked to a fellow last year, in my degree programme, who missed all of the second semester. He didn't get through to second year, you'll be surprised to hear.

They are not allowed to have attendance policies in Ireland. I went to private education for third level in the US and the teachers could make up their own, a lot picked the miss three and you get kicked out. And that is when the money is coming out of a private pocket! I do not think the Irish government should be paying for bored middle class kids NOT to show up.

Instead of abolishing them altogether, maybe means testing is a way to do it.

Also they could cultivate alumni fundraising and loyalty the way the US colleges do. I hear from my HS and College at least once a month each, with various activities, meet ups, etc. I never hear from UCD.

Permabear · 18-10-2010 09:54PM

This post has been deleted.

jock101 · 18-10-2010 09:55PM

metrovelvet wrote: »

They are not allowed to have attendance policies in Ireland. I went to private education for third level in the US and the teachers could make up their own, a lot picked the miss three and you get kicked out. And that is when the money is coming out of a private pocket! I do not think the Irish government should be paying for bored middle class kids NOT to show up.

Instead of abolishing them altogether, maybe means testing is a way to do it.

I agree with that, means tested for the very poor, and a loan system for the middle classes. The Wealthy classes should just pay up front!

jock101 · 18-10-2010 09:58PM

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

You have just summed up the Irish freestate since 1922 to now!

Changed the Union jack to the Tricolour, but the class system does not change!

rainbowtrout · 18-10-2010 10:09PM

metrovelvet wrote: »

They are not allowed to have attendance policies in Ireland. I went to private education for third level in the US and the teachers could make up their own, a lot picked the miss three and you get kicked out. And that is when the money is coming out of a private pocket! I do not think the Irish government should be paying for bored middle class kids NOT to show up.

Instead of abolishing them altogether, maybe means testing is a way to do it.

Also they could cultivate alumni fundraising and loyalty the way the US colleges do. I hear from my HS and College at least once a month each, with various activities, meet ups, etc. I never hear from UCD.

I get emails from UL Alumni Association every few months. Every now and again they ask for donations. But while free fees exist, I'm not too keen on sending them a cheque so the current students can live in luxury student villages, each student with their own bedroom with en suite, spending their days watching Jeremy Kyle.

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I was with you until the last paragraph.. why does the public sector have to get yet another bashing here? It could just as easily be while Tom and Jane emerge from university and get jobs in Daddy's company or in a company belonging to one of Daddy's friends where they spend the day faffing about but don't really do any work.

dashboard_hula · 18-10-2010 10:12PM

I am currently not financially in a position to return to 3rd level education, despite the fact that I know what I want to do, that it is a practical and employable degree, that there is even a shortage of people with these qualifications, and I have been in full time employment with 2 very short gaps since the age of 20.

Should the concept of a government loan for college come to fruitition, why can't people in fulltime employment take advantage of that also in order to go back to school part-time? At the moment, it seems that the only way I'm ever going back to college without racking up a bunch of extra debt is by leaving my job and making sad eyes at SW.

My OH went to university in New York, and got through with a combination of grants, student loans and working summers to make up the balance, but he still paid the majority of the fees himself. Didn't do him any harm, he managed it, and he certainly wasn't from a rich family. The cost of the fees in the US was absolutely shocking though. I don't think we'd have to pay nearly as much over here, but I agree that we should have to pay.

Wolfe Tone · 18-10-2010 10:14PM

What happens if one is from a middle class family, and the parents refuse to pay?

jock101 · 18-10-2010 10:16PM

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

What happens if one is from a middle class family, and the parents refuse to pay?

Get a loan!

dashboard_hula · 18-10-2010 10:16PM

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

What happens if one is from a middle class family, and the parents refuse to pay?

Government loan, repayable after graduation, upon starting employment, perhaps through increased tax?

Permabear · 18-10-2010 10:19PM

This post has been deleted.

Eliot Rosewater · 18-10-2010 10:20PM

metrovelvet wrote: »

They are not allowed to have attendance policies in Ireland.

It's interesting you should mention that. The College of Medicine in UCC operates an attendance register, with a certain percentage attendance required to pass. One of the campaign promises of the incumbent SU President, Keith O'Brien, was to reduce this percentage to 50%.

The fact that this attitude made it onto a Students' Union campaign manifesto shows that the kind of stereotypical complacency of college students isn't limited to a noisy micro-minority: only having to go to half your lectures is clearly a desire shared by a sizable proportion of the student body.

It also doesn't inspire confidence in the future generation of doctors! "There's some irregular breathing sounds from your right lung Mr Rosewater, but I'm afraid I missed those lectures..."

20Cent · 18-10-2010 10:26PM

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

It's interesting you should mention that. The College of Medicine in UCC operates an attendance register, with a certain percentage attendance required to pass. One of the campaign promises of the incumbent SU President, Keith O'Brien, was to reduce this percentage to 50%.

The fact that this attitude made it onto a Students' Union campaign manifesto shows that the kind of stereotypical complacency of college students isn't limited to a noisy micro-minority: only having to go to half your lectures is clearly a desire shared by a sizable proportion of the student body.

It also doesn't inspire confidence in the future generation of doctors! "There's some irregular breathing sounds from your right lung Mr Rosewater, but I'm afraid I missed those lectures..."

If someone can pass all the assignments and exams with poor attendance then whats the problem?
They will probably be working to pay for fees.

musicmonky · 18-10-2010 10:27PM

the €1500 "student services charge" aka registration fee is a lot of money to some people and this will go up in this budget.

So its not free for some people.
http://www.studentfinance.ie/mp7559/check-grant-levels/index.html

rainbowtrout · 18-10-2010 10:28PM

I've often wondered would it work if fees were introduced with the annual fee reduced on a sliding scale for year each passed. Eg. Full fees for first year (7k was mentioned by someone in an earlier post), then if you get into second year reduced it to 5k, third year reduce it to 3k and then free in fourth year or have nominal sum like 1k to reward the student who actually bothers to go to college and do a bit of work.

There are plenty of students who just head off to have a good time for first and second year and then drop out. It would certainly change their tune if it was going to cost them in the region of 12k to go on the piss for a year or two.

Brendog · 18-10-2010 10:31PM

bringing fees back is the last thing that should be done. It will force more people to go abroad or go on the dole.

jock101 · 18-10-2010 10:31PM

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I've often wondered would it work if fees were introduced with the annual fee reduced on a sliding scale for year each passed. Eg. Full fees for first year (7k was mentioned by someone in an earlier post), then if you get into second year reduced it to 5k, third year reduce it to 3k and then free in fourth year or have nominal sum like 1k to reward the student who actually bothers to go to college and do a bit of work.

There are plenty of students who just head off to have a good time for first and second year and then drop out. It would certainly change their tune if it was going to cost them in the region of 12k to go on the piss for a year or two.

Maybe for Arts and Business degrees, but I can see no one doing an taxing course like Engineering or Science etc..!

XxMCRxBabyxX · 18-10-2010 10:33PM

Brendog wrote: »

bringing fees back is the last thing that should be done. It will force more people to go abroad or go on the dole.

Not if, as discussed here, we bring in a loan system with those fees

rainbowtrout · 18-10-2010 10:35PM

20Cent wrote: »

If someone can pass all the assignments and exams with poor attendance then whats the problem?
They will probably be working to pay for fees.

Because not all students are like that. There are plenty of students who miss lots of lectures but study by themselves, and plenty who miss lectures and don't open a book from one end of the year to the next. Come end of year exams lecturers are looking at an overall lower standard in the exams and assignments and end up passing students with a lower standard than previous years. Overall standard in the course drops.

I gave a guy help with first year chemistry about 2 years ago. The first couple of weeks he brought a laptop with him because the lecturer did all his lectures on powerpoint and made them available on the college network so he had them all downloaded. A couple of weeks later he came with nothing except the title of the section he was supposed to be doing. I asked him where his lecture notes were. Told me the new lecturer didn't do powerpoint and used overheads and there were no notes on the network. I asked him did he write down the notes or even topic headings from the overheads and he said no. The attitude was 'why would i have to do that, is it not going to be provided for me?' This is an intelligent guy but the attitude seems to be spreading. He also didn't seem to connect that he didn't know what to study because he had written nothing down. :eek:

XDivaX · 18-10-2010 10:36PM

Wow wow such strong opinions!

I wonder what is 'wealthy family'???

What if students don't want loans? don't you think the worries of staying on top of repayments would be one of factors influencing how well they do? Never mind trying to juggle work and college (assignments are endless)

I'm personally sick of whole system- I can't get grants at all and I'd often struggle for 2months or so after paying for fees upfront, and i still needed to save up beforehand, only to be reminded further seeing those people with grants (not all of them) go YAY!! my grants came lets book flights or buy car massive tv whatever! When I actually could do with it!

Now that ain't to say that all of those who get grants 'abuse' the system but it sickens me seeing few people do that. Especially when they're just 'drifting' through college

Time to return Third level fees

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