IRMA fail to force UPC to block illegal downloads (Court Ruling)

danniemcq · 11-10-2010 11:10AM #1

K so i just heard in the news that the same group of music people (Sony, Universal etc) that got Eircom to cut off/ban anyone that illegally downloads their stuff has failed to get UPC to do the same.

Despite the Judge saying that the music industry was being devestated he said Ireland didn't have the laws in place to enforce them. Tried looking for an online link but can't see anything up yet, just heard on the news at 12 there now just

Keith186 · 11-10-2010 11:13AM

Fairplay to UPC for not bending over like eircom did.
Hope this news is true.

Sanjuro · 11-10-2010 11:13AM

The music industry is handling this whole situation badly. Instead of looking for a viable solution to illegal copying and downloading, they're trying to disrupt the free nature of the internet, and targeting average joes with ridiculous lawsuits. Fair dues to UPC for doing what Eircom should have done. Eircom are idiots.

Papa_Lazarou · 11-10-2010 11:13AM

Would Eircom be able to appeal the judgement made on them because of this?

Sea Sharp · 11-10-2010 11:14AM

Hurrah,

A victory for 1.7 mb/second torrent download rates.

D_BEAR · 11-10-2010 11:16AM

http://www.teic.ie/2010/10/irma-loses-in-bid-to-force-three-strikes-on-upc/

Stercus Accidit · 11-10-2010 11:17AM

Papa_Lazarou wrote: »

Would Eircom be able to appeal the judgement made on them because of this?

Eircom gives up customer data to third parties and cuts off entire families connections voluntarily.

Papa_Lazarou · 11-10-2010 11:18AM

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

Eircom gives up customer data to third parties and cuts off entire families connections voluntarily.

Ill take that as a no then

NothingMan · 11-10-2010 11:18AM

Papa_Lazarou wrote: »

Would Eircom be able to appeal the judgement made on them because of this?

As far as I know Eircom just bent over and did what the record companies asked. They never contested the request and I'm sure lost some customers in the process.

1.7MB/sec? I have 30Mb so that's 3.3MB/sec

. Not that I download of course....:cool:

NullZer0 · 11-10-2010 11:20AM

Papa_Lazarou wrote: »

Would Eircom be able to appeal the judgement made on them because of this?

They seem to be able to appeal everything else.
In fact I would guess that they have their own "appeals" team at this stage.

A joke!

danniemcq · 11-10-2010 11:20AM

Eircom,

Grabbing customers by the balls since 1984

Gunsfortoys · 11-10-2010 11:21AM

This is great. As a result of free downloads a lot more recording artists get more exposure over the big artists such as U2. Half the bands I listen to now would never have gotten a listen if i couldn't download them. I have always tried to buy some stuff of theirs if I like them.

I welcome this and it will give UPC great publicity. Eircom are a sinking ship and they have only themselves to blame.

Sea Sharp · 11-10-2010 11:21AM

NothingMan wrote: »

As far as I know Eircom just bent over and did what the record companies asked. They never contested the request and I'm sure lost some customers in the process.

1.7MB/sec? I have 30Mb so that's 3.3MB/sec . Not that I download of course....:cool:

Niice!

Mark200 · 11-10-2010 11:23AM

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

Eircom gives up customer data to third parties and cuts off entire families connections voluntarily.

That's more than stretching the truth. They were taken to court, and 8 days into the trial they most likely thought they were going to lose the case to made a deal with the record companies to soften the blow. If they did lose the case, things might have been worse. It's ridiculous to imply that Eircom just one day out of nowhere rang up the record companies and said "hey, lets make a deal".

danniemcq · 11-10-2010 11:24AM

Gunsfortoys wrote: »

This is great. As a result of free downloads a lot more recording artists get more exposure over the big artists such as U2. Half the bands I listen to now would never have gotten a listen if i couldn't download them. I have always tried to buy some stuff of theirs if I like them.

I welcome this and it will give UPC great publicity. Eircom are a sinking ship and they have only themselves to blame.

Agreed, I have seen heaps of bands thanks to downloading some of their songs, and at gigs i then by tshirts etc there spread the word to friends and the process starts again

M.J.M.C · 11-10-2010 11:32AM

Fair play to UPC for standing up to this.

Regardless of how you feel on the matter - companies shouldn't just hand over information to a 3rd party because they want it.

Mark200 · 11-10-2010 11:33AM

Here's an Irish Times article about it:

UPC has won a legal action taken in the High Court by record labels over illegal downloading and file-sharing.

Warner Music, Universal Music, Sony BMG and EMI Records had been attempting to force internet service providers to adopt a “three strikes” rule to halt copyright infringement and piracy by internet users.

The High Court ruled that laws to identify and cut off internet users illegally copying music files were not enforceable in Ireland.

In a judgment published today, Mr Justice Peter Charleton said recording companies were being harmed by internet piracy.

“This not only undermines their business but ruins the ability of a generation of creative people in Ireland, and elsewhere, to establish a viable living. It is destructive of an important native industry,” he said.

However, the judge said laws were not in place in Ireland to enforce disconnections over illegal downloads despite the record companies’ complaints being merited. He also said this gap in legislation meant Ireland was not complying with European law.

In a statement, UPC said it would work to identify and address the main areas of concern in the file-sharing debate.

"UPC has repeatedly stressed that it does not condone piracy and has always taken a strong stance against illegal activity on its network. It takes all steps required by the law to combat specific infringements which are brought to its attention and will continue to co-operate with rights holders where they have obtained the necessary court orders for alleged copyright infringements," it said.

"Our whole premise and defence focused on the mere conduit principal which provides that an internet service provider cannot be held liable for content transmitted across its network and today’s decision supports the principal that ISPs are not liable for the actions of internet subscribers."

ISPs have been awaiting the outcome of the case against UPC. However, it is not yet known what effect the UPC judgment will have on Eircom's agreement with record labels, which it settled on out of court last year.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/1011/breaking32.html

M.J.M.C · 11-10-2010 11:40AM

Thread title is a bit misleading to someone who might not know the facts.
Gives a kinda "free for all" impression which is incorrect.

danniemcq · 11-10-2010 11:42AM

From Breaking news

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/record-companies-fail-in-bid-to-force-upc-to-block-illegal-downloading-477226.html

11/10/2010 - 12:10:24
Several record company giants have failed in their High Court bid to force UPC to block illegal internet downloading.

The court said that Ireland does not have the necessary laws in place to block, divert and interrupt internet piracy.

Eircom last year settled a deal with four record companies to cut off its broadband subscribers if they are caught sharing certain copyrighted music online.

In this case, EMI, Sony, Universal, Warner and WEA international went to court to force UPC to do likewise.

In his judgement, Mr Justice Peter Charleton said he was satisfied that their business was being devastated by illegal downloading.

Despite those views, he said that the Court could not grant injunctive relief, saying Ireland does not have the laws in place to block internet copyright theft.

"It is not surprising that the legislative response laid down in our country in the Copyright and Related Rights Act 2000, at a time when this problem was not perceived to be as threatening to the creative and retail economy as it has become in 2010, has made no proper provision for the blocking, diverting or interrupting of internet communications intent on breaching copyright," stated the judgement.

"In failing to provide legislative provisions for blocking, diverting and interrupting internet copyright theft, Ireland is not yet fully in compliance with its obligations under European law.

"Instead, the only relevant power that the courts are given is to require an internet hosting service to remove copyright material. Respecting, as it does, the doctrine of separation of powers and the rule of law, the Court cannot move to grant injunctive relief to the recording companies against internet piracy, even though that relief is merited on the facts.

"The Court thus declines injunctive relief."

Mark200 · 11-10-2010 11:45AM

If I remember correctly, part of Eircom's deal with the Record Companies was that other ISPs would have to implement a similar deal. If that's not going to be the case, then Eircom may be off the hook.

danniemcq · 11-10-2010 11:46AM

M.J.M.C wrote: »

Thread title is a bit misleading to someone who might not know the facts.
Gives a kinda "free for all" impression which is incorrect.

Changed, realised it was a bit vague but got point across, think its better now though

Papa_Lazarou · 11-10-2010 11:55AM

Could someone clarify this for me. Was the deal eircom made to cut off people who just shared music online i.e seeded it for other people or for those who downloaded for themseleves and provided the material for others?

thebigbiffo · 11-10-2010 11:56AM

i'm delighted. the whole music industry is wrong imo. bands making obsene money for recordings alone is wrong (especially considering 'obsene' is a fraction of what the record company makes). i have great respect for artists but touring and merchandising (ie. working for your money) is where they should be focused. record corporations throwing massive amounts of money at over produced acts to enhance their image, appeal etc is not 'real' music, its profiteering and is done at the expense of genuine new talent.

i dont care how many billions the music industry loses - they dont employ anyone i know of and the more i download U2's albums the more warm and fuzzy i feel at the fact that they might have to put their plans for another villa on hold.

'big' acts, are you listening? record companies not paying you enough cos of downloading? tour more, with more dates at cheaper tickets prices, sell stuff to your fans who want to give you their cash - dont expect me to care about some suit and your %

Mark200 · 11-10-2010 12:00PM

thebigbiffo wrote: »

i'm delighted. the whole music industry is wrong imo. bands making obsene money for recordings alone is wrong (especially considering 'obsene' is a fraction of what the record company makes). i have great respect for artists but touring and merchandising (ie. working for your money) is where they should be focused. record corporations throwing massive amounts of money at over produced acts to enhance their image, appeal etc is not 'real' music, its profiteering and is done at the expense of genuine new talent.

i dont care how many billions the music industry loses - they dont employ anyone i know of and the more i download U2's albums the more warm and fuzzy i feel at the fact that they might have to put their plans for another villa on hold.

'big' acts, are you listening? record companies not paying you enough cos of downloading? tour more, with more dates at cheaper tickets prices, sell stuff to your fans who want to give their cash - dont expect me to care about some suit and your %

Well the point is, who are you to say "you're making too much"? It doesn't mean you have the right to download their products for free. You don't go into a Tesco and steal a bottle of coke and say "Ah sure, they make too much money anyway". I know it's slightly different with music because you aren't really 'stealing' anything as such, and if you were never going to buy the music in the first place then no one really loses out if you download it... but the argument that they're "making obscene money" doesn't wash.

Notorious97 · 11-10-2010 12:47PM

People are always going to download, they cant stop it. They can block 20 sites today, 30 more will replace it tomorrow. They should just accept it. Me personally i will buy my favourite artists work, always have and always will, but i do usually download it as its available online before it is in a shop (im too impatient to hear it)! I will always buy the people i like regardless of downloading it, they put time and effort in and should be paid.

the expression to combat piracy....'you wouldnt download a car'......i would if i fu*king could mate. :pac:

11-10-2010 01:07PM

thebigbiffo wrote: »

i'm delighted. the whole music industry is wrong imo. bands making obsene money for recordings alone is wrong (especially considering 'obsene' is a fraction of what the record company makes). i have great respect for artists but touring and merchandising (ie. working for your money) is where they should be focused. record corporations throwing massive amounts of money at over produced acts to enhance their image, appeal etc is not 'real' music, its profiteering and is done at the expense of genuine new talent.

Agree with this.

They want to earn they can go out and tour and actually work. I've seen plenty of musicians playing their songs for free on youtube etc... thats what its meant to be about, making music because you love it and want to spread it.
The more you spread it, the more chance people will show up at a gig you might play in that locality.

fozz · 11-10-2010 01:14PM

Ha!...v funny Notorious. We'd download our dinner if we could

I agree with the sentiments here....the recording studios are going at this 21st century digital issue with 20th century physical laws and ideologies.
Before it was the lad selling bootleg albums from his car boot...now it is the lad upping data that other punters then download.
Their whole industry has changed but they are slow to embrace the change, and so backlash against it.
It's like when they say 'X number of people downloaded this movie so we lost x times cost-of-a-ticket-to-see-movie' because of this illegal activity.
Well, yes, but only if everyone who watched the bootleg was willing to poay for the movie experience (I wont even touch on the difference between a movie seen in proper surroundings versus a telesynch with bad sound & vid quality watched on a laptop of iPhone).
Now that's a movie-download issue but the same applies to music. Whereas before we had physical disks/tapes, now we have 1's and 0's.

How about they price digital downloads appropriately?
What's an album these days on iTunes?
A Tenner? (I honestly don't know but a quick google search says I'm close).
Now what do they have to do to get that album to you?
Before they had to package the CD, ship it, host it in a shop, pay staff to sell it to you, issue receipt, deal with damaged goods etc.
That's all gone now and they still want to change the same price, or maybe up to 50% less?
They need to embrace the Digital age.
Charge a euro for an album....10c a song....we all know the vast majority of this goes into Corporate pockets so they refuse to g this way as they are ruled by the bottom line, and any short term hit to that will look bad in the quarterly results so what CEO will accept that?
More t the point, would many free down loaders be willing to pay that for 'legit' copies of their albums/songs with proper album art and whatever else comes with downloading the actual content?

It's basic Capitalism that wont budge and embrace change...sell at way way less profit margins but ship more units...it will take a while and lets be honest, they will make less profits so it will be a hard sell to the shareholders but it's the way to limit piracy (it can never be stopped) and get on with business.

kirving · 11-10-2010 01:23PM

Eircom do not give out your information to third party companies.

What happens is - IMRO, well a third praty compnay on behalf of IMRO put up a fille and see who is downloading it.

If the IP address of the computer dowloading is one of eircom's(easily attainable info), IMRO will pass the IP address to eircom for a warning(or three) to be handed out. Once you reach three, your cut off.

I dont agree with it, and neither do eircom. (An internal email which was shown in court basically said all that IRMO were doing was giving artist more money for cocaine and women)

Eircom couldn't afford to fight it in court, whereas UPC, Europe's larges ISP/TV company (I think) could.

I hope eircom can no tell IRMO where to go....

Duggy747 · 11-10-2010 01:32PM

Bah, torrents are like the town whore, everyone's had a crack at her, some have gotten viruses while others have been caught by the fuzz.

Direct downloads all the way! :pac:

fozz · 11-10-2010 01:40PM

Duggy747 wrote: »

Bah, torrents are like the town whore, everyone's had a crack at her, some have gotten viruses while others have been caught by the fuzz.

Direct downloads all the way! :pac:

Disagree there Duggy.
Direct downloads, like RapidShare are quite unreliable.
RS are deleting em all the time and stuff only stays online for a short enough period.
Sure, piratebay and suchlike public torrents are no good.
But private tracker torrent sites, like IPT.com are superb.
The content is almost al good (as is uploaded by controlled uploaders), they are always well seeded and they stay active for a lot longer.
But this is taking the thread off-topic.

In the end it matters little what method of 'illegal downloading' you engage in.
The Recording Studios want you to stop an just accept their massively inflated prices that you had to accept in the pre-Internet era.....now be a good lad and just do that.
What they certainly don't want to do is remould their pricing model to try eliminate much of the need for piracy.
If someone is not willing to use a quality legit online service to get albums they want for about €1 (a speculative price I made up) then they are not willing to pay at all for it so they are not a lost customer.
If they want to download RAR files, unrar em, mess with file downloaders and uTorrent etc, then let em.
But most people don't want to do that and would pay for stuff they 'actually wanted' (key requirement) if it as made cheap and efficient. As in, make it as easy to do as update facebook. And make it s easy to xfer to your media player if choice. These re the key issues facing the studios as I see it but they are unwilling to even try...they would rather just use all stick to try beat you back to the 80's/90's.

..Brian.. · 11-10-2010 01:50PM

Kevin Irving wrote: »

Eircom couldn't afford to fight it in court, whereas UPC, Europe's larges ISP/TV company (I think) could.

I hope eircom can no tell IRMO where to go....

Just FYI, UPC are actually the European branch of Liberty Global, a world wide broadcasting company so they well have the muscle to stand up to the likes of IRMA.

IRMA fail to force UPC to block illegal downloads (Court Ruling)

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