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Did we originate in Africa?

2

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,702 ✭✭✭squod


    sligopark wrote: »
    who actually believes the human race came from africa - give us a break sweet gaysus

    Neither of us two apparently.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,109 ✭✭✭Cavehill Red


    It's worth adding at this point that the evidence presented is very limited. It is suggested that a single jawbone, dated to c.110,000 years ago, is a homo sapiens jawbone. This could simply be incorrectly identified, or it could be a dating error, or it could be evidence that at one point a hominid species very similar to homo sapiens developed in Asia, but was subsequently eradicated by later arrivals from Africa.
    After all, the core evidence is the fact that Chinese and Asian people share the same genetic heritage as all others outside of Africa do.
    Dr Julie Cormack, of Mount Royal University in Canada, who was involved in the discovery, is coincidentally the biographer of Davidson Black, who discovered Peking Man.
    Black asserted that Peking Man was a separate hominid species, but other researchers proved it was in fact merely a sub-species of homo erectus.
    I wonder if perhaps Dr Cormack isn't getting similarly carried away here with her own Chinese discovery.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 21,191 ✭✭✭✭Latchy


    caseyann wrote: »
    This is the thing still all theory,could go around in circles again and prove not so.The theories are just that they will continue finding other evidence we might have come from the north pole.

    Very much so , like man as a species originally evolved from the sea then we could just as easy have come from any place on the planet .


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,109 ✭✭✭Cavehill Red


    Latchy wrote: »
    Very much so , like man as a species originally evolved from the sea then we could just as easy have come from any place on the planet .

    Not quite!
    Life evolved from the ocean. Man evolved very much on land.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,938 ✭✭✭caseyann


    Latchy wrote: »
    Very much so , like man as a species originally evolved from the sea then we could just as easy have come from any place on the planet .

    Or not on the planet at all;) created in form of bacteria different bacteria's that is why we have different skin colour genetically stronger and weaker to other diseases.Therefore even if we came from Africa,North pole or wherever genetically not of same species.Mutated from a hit of a meteorite.

    As they did say previously perhaps evolved from different animals.
    What happened to the ape theory:confused:


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,620 ✭✭✭sligopark


    Not quite!
    Life evolved from the ocean. Man evolved very much on land.

    Give me a break - humans a million years from now could makem the same assumptions from animal and plant life available now to be fossilised for then ... perhaps with the caveat that line breeding from homosexuality contained certain lines toward conformity ....


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,166 ✭✭✭✭nullzero
    °°°°°


    meglome wrote: »
    There are at least three people in this thread that seem to take issue with the idea that we came out of Africa. I don't know why that is but if I had to guess I'd agree with yekas.

    Meglome if you feel somebody is being intollerant, racist or xenophobic etc report it.

    I can't stand intollerant people, but unless somebody makes a clear and definitive statement to prove conclusively that they are intollerant you're only going on opinion and could be very much mistaken in accussing them of something that is (at least in most peoples eyes) quite a serious moral offence.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,938 ✭✭✭caseyann


    yekahs wrote: »
    Its neither. I, with the most evidence behind it.



    But just so you know a fact is something we observe. A theory is an explanation based on the most evidence to explain our observation. For example, the fact of gravity is that we observe that objects are attracted to each other. The theory is our explanation of why that happens - i.e Gravity is still "just a theory"
    I disagree there is other leading hypothesis,they can not hundred percent anything they are just happy with what they have at the moment.Time will change that again.

    You observe it as fact,i do not as there will never be answers just more questions :p


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,109 ✭✭✭Cavehill Red


    caseyann wrote: »
    Or not on the planet at all;) created in form of bacteria different bacteria's that is why we have different skin colour genetically stronger and weaker to other diseases.Therefore even if we came from Africa,North pole or wherever genetically not of same species.Mutated from a hit of a meteorite.

    As they did say previously perhaps evolved from different animals.
    What happened to the ape theory:confused:

    Wow! Ok, where to start?
    I'm with you that life could well have begun on Earth as a result of bacteria carried here by meteorite. The origin of life itself is unknown. What is known is that it began in the ocean.
    From there, some basic aquatic lifeforms progressed to land, and eventually began proliferating into various land-based species.
    I presume what you refer to as the 'ape' theory is the concept that we are primates, genetically closely related to the other great apes. This is genetically the case. Our closest living relatives are the other primates. We shared a common ancestor with gorillas about 5 million years ago.
    This doesn't mean we are descended from apes. It means us and the apes are descended from the same long-extinct species.
    As for skin colour, that is simple adaptation. In hot countries, skin develops darker to prevent overheating. In colder, less sunny climates such as Ice Age Europe, skin lightens to maximise vitamin A retention.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,620 ✭✭✭sligopark


    nullzero wrote: »
    I can't stand intollerant people,

    me neither unless they are marxist like Green ecothesists ...


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 221 ✭✭tomasocarthaigh


    Nobody asked the monkey is man his relative.

    Until now!!!!



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,620 ✭✭✭sligopark


    The origin of life itself is unknown. What is known is that it began in the ocean.

    either it is known or unknown why came the ground of both?????


    No one has established despite all the DNA work and medical work what it is that works through living beings and leaves them upon death - take a read of James LeFanu's work 'why us?'

    .....


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,225 ✭✭✭Yitzhak Rabin


    caseyann wrote: »
    I disagree there is other leading hypothesis,they can not hundred percent anything they are just happy with what they have at the moment.Time will change that again.

    Yes there are plenty of competing hypotheses. Its a fascinating area. I love studying it. Its hard though not to be swayed by the amount of evidence that all modern humans originated from various African migrations. Europeans almost definitely so.

    Science is most certainly not happy with what they have. As Dara O Briain said "Well of course science knows it doesn't have all the answers....if they did....they would just stop"
    You observe it as fact,i do not as there will never be answers just more questions :p

    You don't observe gravity as a fact?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,938 ✭✭✭caseyann


    Wow! Ok, where to start?
    I'm with you that life could well have begun on Earth as a result of bacteria carried here by meteorite. The origin of life itself is unknown. What is known is that it began in the ocean.
    From there, some basic aquatic lifeforms progressed to land, and eventually began proliferating into various land-based species.
    I presume what you refer to as the 'ape' theory is the concept that we are primates, genetically closely related to the other great apes. This is genetically the case. Our closest living relatives are the other primates. We shared a common ancestor with gorillas about 5 million years ago.
    This doesn't mean we are descended from apes. It means us and the apes are descended from the same long-extinct species.
    As for skin colour, that is simple adaptation. In hot countries, skin develops darker to prevent overheating. In colder, less sunny climates such as Ice Age Europe, skin lightens to maximise vitamin A retention.

    AHA thanks explained in layman terms :o
    I agree so many different species so many things not found as of yet.God only knows what will be found next to turn this on its head,like the earth been flat.
    I heard a theory once that some humans were of origins of the water while others were origins of the land.Therefore different genetics.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,324 ✭✭✭RGDATA!


    sligopark wrote: »
    its not so much I believe in adam and eve but that that I don't believe my pedigree began with my ancestors coming out of africa or an ass - mine or anyone else's - if this were the case - homosexuality would be established as a biological choice allowing natural procreation rather than personal establishment of some sort of right toward parenthood ...

    ....

    Not from Africa nor from my arse ....


    ;)

    that's a bizarre digression. what has homosexuality to do with it? anyway, despite of the ineffectiveness of homosexuals at procreating, they've managed to stave off extinction for a long time now.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,109 ✭✭✭Cavehill Red


    sligopark wrote: »
    either it is known or unknown why came the ground of both?????

    This question doesn't make sense to me. Perhaps you could clarify?
    I said that the origin of life on Earth is not known. This is the case. However, there is strong and clear evidence for where life originated. Fossil evidence demonstrates life in the oceans at a time when there was no life on what land existed.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,938 ✭✭✭caseyann


    yekahs wrote: »
    Yes there are plenty of competing hypotheses. Its a fascinating area. I love studying it. Its hard though not to be swayed by the amount of evidence that all modern humans originated from various African migrations. Europeans almost definitely so.

    Science is most certainly not happy with what they have. As Dara O Briain said "Well of course science knows it doesn't have all the answers....if they did....they would just stop"



    You don't observe gravity as a fact?

    If i had had the head for it all i would be out there researching and digging it up myself.:p
    Ah now Dara is a god hater have to slap him sometime when i see him again.Just havent seen him in a while.
    This is the thing there is no end ever,because the answers in your life will not be found.Sure we will find new information in the next 20,30 years that will turn this on its head aswell.

    Ofc i do i dont take the origins of Humans as been all the same as fact.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,109 ✭✭✭Cavehill Red


    caseyann wrote: »
    AHA thanks explained in layman terms :o
    I agree so many different species so many things not found as of yet.God only knows what will be found next to turn this on its head,like the earth been flat.
    I heard a theory once that some humans were of origins of the water while others were origins of the land.Therefore different genetics.

    I think it would help if the concept of species was better understood. You can have wide physical variance within a single species, or very little difference between two actually distinct species.
    There are a lot of homo sapiens out there, and they've had the guts of 100,000 years to proliferate across the planet into many different environments. It's not surprising that they can look very different to each other.
    However, the advent of DNA testing has very much helped push us beyond the simplistic visual 'race' distinctions proposed by Victorians.
    All humans share the same genetic heritage. All those from outside of Africa (and some from Africa) share the same narrower genetic heritage, implying that we all descended from a single bottleneck of humanity which left Africa at some point.
    The DNA evidence is very strong on this, which is why I offered my previous analysis of what this Chinese find is actually likely to be.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 21,191 ✭✭✭✭Latchy


    Not quite!
    Life evolved from the ocean. Man evolved very much on land.

    But all living things, animals ,plant life and man are part of that life so yes he did evolve on land but his origins are from the ocean just as you say, like the rest but I get your point
    caseyann wrote: »
    Or not on the planet at all;) created in form of bacteria different bacteria's that is why we have different skin colour genetically stronger and weaker to other diseases.Therefore even if we came from Africa,North pole or wherever genetically not of same species.Mutated from a hit of a meteorite.

    As they did say previously perhaps evolved from different animals.
    What happened to the ape theory:confused:

    Indeed ;) I cant remember the titles of the books and the authors of top of head but man coming from another planet was a big thing with booksellers back in the seventies. As for the ape theory, it's something I have always subscribed to if only because humans resemble apes in many ways so it's a simple , easy way to view it although it is of course open to more in depth discussion .

    Edit-off to bed myself ,night folks


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,225 ✭✭✭Yitzhak Rabin


    Ok folks, I'm off to bed. In the meantime, please direct this towards a CT related topic. I'm reluctant to lock it, only because I love the area of human origins so much

    But unfortunately, if there is no CT by the morning, this thread will be going to locktown


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,589 ✭✭✭✭My name is URL


    sligopark wrote: »
    except of course that homosexuality does not produce children (hasn't for me or my partner nor produced any children out off our arses) - don't be silly

    Ah ffs.. are you for real? Think about it.. it doesn't matter if someone is gay.. even if they procreate once, it ensures their genes live on. Evolution will not change simply because some people are gay. It may limit their chances of passing their gene on but it doesn't forbid it.. or require any anatomical change to accommodate it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,620 ✭✭✭sligopark


    RGDATA! wrote: »
    that's a bizarre digression. what has homosexuality to do with it? anyway, despite of the ineffectiveness of homosexuals at procreating, they've managed to stave off extinction for a long time now.

    I didn't suggest it - I replied - variations always throw up and are no less allowed validity albeit as a homosexual I recognise I will not procreate within my union choice.


    This question doesn't make sense to me. Perhaps you could clarify?

    The whole fossil record is open to interpretation of todays knowledge - do you think if todays bones were found in a million years that they would be interpretated in a full and accurate manner given the loss of records continually encountered by the human race?

    We believe too much in people too removed from all sciences and too specialised in tiny areas to tell us where and why we came from ... instead of just enjoying life today as it is, being good to one another instead of looking for excuses to denigrate one another and continue useless non positive debate whether we came from apes in africa or intelligent beings from outer space?

    Who cares?

    Life is too precious and too lost to the present to care.

    What ever your belief - our lives are a miracle in a universe, 'scientists' so far are unable to provide a dupicate of our earth - we worry too much and pray too little.

    Nite folks.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,109 ✭✭✭Cavehill Red


    sligopark wrote: »
    The whole fossil record is open to interpretation of todays knowledge - do you think if todays bones were found in a millio years that they would be interpretated in a full and accurate manner given the loss of records continually encountered by the human race?

    Given how science progresses in the direction of ever more accurate knowledge through the scientific process, if we as a species exist (in whatever form) in a million years, I would expect they'd have an extremely full and accurate analysis of our evolution.
    sligopark wrote: »
    We believe too much in people too removed from all scienes and too specialised in tiny areas to tell us where and why we came from ...

    Not sure if you meant to write scenes or sciences there. If 'sciences', then I agree. Sadly most people are too divorced from basic scientific comprehension to understand scientific breakthroughs. Equally, many scientists are singularly incapable of explaining their discoveries in layman's terms. The intermediary media has not covered itself in glory in filling the interpretive gap of knowledge.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,620 ✭✭✭sligopark


    Given how science progresses in the direction of ever more accurate knowledge through the scientific process, if we as a species exist (in whatever form) in a million years, I would expect they'd have an extremely full and accurate analysis of our evolution.

    except for the political nature of knowledge and its complete loss through the ages


    Not sure if you meant to write scenes or sciences there. If 'sciences', then I agree. Sadly most people are too divorced from basic scientific comprehension to understand scientific breakthroughs. Equally, many scientists are singularly incapable of explaining their discoveries in layman's terms. The intermediary media has not covered itself in glory in filling the interpretive gap of knowledge.


    eh bar the obvious statement of those lacking the IQ to meet science standards I repeat 'except for the political nature of knowledge and its complete loss through the ages'


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,620 ✭✭✭sligopark


    yekahs wrote: »
    Ok folks, I'm off to bed.

    me too nite folks


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    This question doesn't make sense to me. Perhaps you could clarify?
    I said that the origin of life on Earth is not known. This is the case. However, there is strong and clear evidence for where life originated. Fossil evidence demonstrates life in the oceans at a time when there was no life on what land existed.
    You might find this interesting, post in A&A yesterday.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/1007/breaking17.html
    Scientists led by researchers at the National University of Ireland in Maynooth have solved the mystery of how complex life formed.

    “Nature’s big bang” - when two single cells fused into one living organism - has been mapped for the first time by researchers.

    Senior biologist Dr James McInerney said the discovery in effect traced humans’ oldest ancestors.

    “This was a remarkable event, which appears to have happened only once,” he said. “These two primitive single cell life forms came together in an event that essentially allowed nature to grow big.”

    Dr McInerney said the research would help explain what gave rise to all multi-cell organisms we know today - insects, plants, animals and humans.

    Using genetics and information from the mapping of the yeast genome, evidence of two originally single cells, known as prokaryotes, were discovered in a eukaryote which formed with a nucleus.

    Researchers were able to show that yeast - a model system for molecular biology - contained one eukaryote genome which came from two distinct different prokaryote genomes.

    “It is in the nucleus that we find the DNA of all species, and for years it had been a puzzle as to how the first nucleus was created. Now we know," Dr McInerney said.

    Researchers believe this can be dated to about two billion years after the oldest micro-fossils.

    The discovery follows the mapping of the family tree of all nature by researchers at NUI Maynooth.

    “Essentially, you had an organism, like the Minotaur in ancient Greece, and this, in biological terms is what we hypothesised was the common ancestor of all eukaryotic life," Dr McInerney said. “Because humans are eukaryotes, we were, in essence, trying to trace the deepest human ancestor.”

    Dr McInerney, of NUI Maynooth’s Bioinformatics and Molecular Evolution Unit of the Department of Biology, collaborated with Dr James Cotton at the world-famous Sanger Institute in Cambridge, England, to make the discovery.

    Their work has been published in the eminent Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, USA.

    The discovery was made after 10 years research at NUI Maynooth and followed the sequencing of the yeast genome in 1997.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    yekahs wrote: »
    Ok folks, I'm off to bed. In the meantime, please direct this towards a CT related topic. I'm reluctant to lock it, only because I love the area of human origins so much

    But unfortunately, if there is no CT by the morning, this thread will be going to locktown
    Could you move it to the Atheist & Agnostic forum instead, I'm sure the folks over there would appreciate it. :)


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,869 ✭✭✭Mahatma coat


    I'm thinkinthatif thre was to be aCTSlant to this thread it would be along the lines of Watch this space for future 'Revsions' o theories, some Chinese and European organisations wish topresent a iew of the world where theyare the Original species Evolved in their local part of the world, watch how the depiction of Neanderthal has changed over the last twenty years from Squat, ugly, Brown, Stupid Creatures to Blonde, Blue eyed, Giants of Men Far more adanced that the Primitive Africans.

    THe Chinese seem to want a simmilar history for themselves, so any traits that pop up on further finds that conform to this view will be highlighted and any that dont will be written of as anomalies.


    However I wouldnt mind if we moved this to Anthropology and had a Decent discussion about it, this is a Field thatintrigues a lot of us here.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,443 ✭✭✭✭bonkey


    I'm thinkinthatif thre was to be aCTSlant to this thread it would be along the lines of Watch this space for future 'Revsions' o theories,

    I'm not sure why you've put the word Revisions in quotes. It seems you're attributing some special meaning to it that is key to how this becomes a CT.

    Science is in a constant state of revision. True, there are always people who claim that their "new truth" is being suppressed, or that some part of science is being defended with almost religious adherence, but to be honest that's either misrepresentative pandering to the non-scientific, or just plain lack of understanding.

    Lets look at this case, and see whats really a possible CT, and what isn't.

    The scientific community is suppressing evidence which contradicts the 'Out of Africa' (OoA)premise

    No, they're not. A quick google will show that this find has been widely reported. No-one is suppressing this evidence. Rather, it is the case that the scientific community aren't looking at it and saying "this single jawbone absolutely disproves OoA". That's not suppression.

    The scientific community is rejecting evidence which categorically refutes the OoA premise
    Again, I'd say that no, they're not. The evidence, as it stands today, does not categorically refute anything. It possibly refutes it...but there are other possible explanations. Science is not founded on wildly jumping from belief to belief as soon as evidence is found which migh support the new belief. Rather, the scientific community (as a whole) moves slowly...making sure that the evidence to support its new position is undeniably stronger then the evidence which supported its old position. Naturally, this means that the individuals who make genuine game-changing breakthroughs are convinced of their correctness long before their position is accepted. It also means that the vastly-larger body of individuals who reach incorrect conclusions don't change the game so readily.

    The scientific community will just revise its position and continue as before
    If this evidence turns out to be compelling, then yes...that's what will happen. Thats not a conspiracy theory...its what's supposed to happen. Its how science is supposed to function. New evidence is assessed against existing positions, and if ncessary those positions are revised to be a better match to all the evidence.
    Bear in mind that in this case, OoA being wrong wouldn't necessarily mean that life originated in multiple places, or that modern man doesn't have its roots in Africa. It only means that the current model which hypothesises how mankind spread from Africa is flawed.

    The evidence is being misinterpreted
    This is a possibility which shouldn't be discounted. Of course, if it turns out to be the case, then there will no doubt be plenty who believe that this is some sort of "suppression" or "rejection", but that doesn't mean its not possible that the evidence is being misinterpreted.

    The evidence is fake - the whole thing is a hoax
    This seems unlikely, to be honest. I'm not sure how advanced the research on teh find is, but it seems to be far enough along the path of verification that this can be ruled out. That said, it wouldn't be the first time that a hoax was deliberately perpetrated in order to further some ulterior goal at the expense of science.

    So where does that leave us?

    Well, for me, it leaves me with no CT in sight. There's an interesting and controversial find. The scientific community are doing what they do, and not just changing positions radically with every new piece of evidence to come to light. The research continues, both on this find, and on the site. To date, no-one seems to have done anything underhand, nor is there any hint of underhandedness on any side.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,225 ✭✭✭Yitzhak Rabin


    Well said Bonkey. That has been my opinion since the start. I just let my love of the subject cloud my better judgement and leave it open :)

    Anyway, I'll be closing the thread for now, but all is not lost, the folks over in Anthropology have agreed to take it, so it'll be going over there to continue the discussion


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