Locally Sourced Food

Corsendonk · 04-10-2010 10:23PM #1

Locally sourced food and farmers markets appear to be the latest trend in the food world in Ireland.

What to you is locally sourced food? Produced within your county, province, country? And could you survive on locally sourced food alone.

Minder · 05-10-2010 05:46AM

I think that even the most ardent champions of local food acknowledge that some things need to be imported. All citrus fruit, bananas and most spices for example. On a recent food programme, I was surprised to learn that the carbon footprint of a tomato grown in Morocco and imported to the UK is actually less than that of a tomato grown in a winter greenhouse in the UK.

muckety · 05-10-2010 07:47AM

Barbara Kingsolver wrote a book about trying to live for a year on only local produce ('animal vegetable miracle') ... in the U.S. which meant not eating any bananas, growing a lot of their own food (they had the space and time!) and raising some turkeys (very funny chapter on that). Worth a read if you are interested in the topic!

The Hill Billy · 05-10-2010 10:46AM

The OP is a bit like a Junior Cert exam question. Corsendonk - why not share your own views & then that may encourage others to share their opinions.

ki · 05-10-2010 10:53AM

muckety wrote: »

Barbara Kingsolver wrote a book about trying to live for a year on only local produce ('animal vegetable miracle') ... in the U.S. which meant not eating any bananas, growing a lot of their own food (they had the space and time!) and raising some turkeys (very funny chapter on that). Worth a read if you are interested in the topic!

I read that too, a very interesting read.

Corsendonk · 05-10-2010 01:03PM

Hill Billy wrote: »

The OP is a bit like a Junior Cert exam question. Corsendonk - why not share your own views & then that may encourage others to share their opinions.

I kept it a rather open ended question to see peoples interpretation of the topic. Personally speaking in my opinion living off locally sourced is next to impossible due to the wide variation of our diets compared to previous generations. To live off locally sourced your calling for a dramatic reduction in diet variation and having to adhere to seasonality something that the last 2 generations at least have not had to live with.

Nowadays we consume genetic material from all corners of the planet i.e Alaskian tinned salmon, bananas from Columbia,chicken from Thailand and Brazil, garlic from China etc. You could import substitute by trying to grow produce in Ireland lack of sunlight climate but that consumes alot of energy and as one previous poster pointed out the carbon footprint can be substantial compared to imported products from sunnier climates and then the cost of the locally grown item can be too high for most of the consumer base to purchase.

Also how do you define locally sourced? Is it Ireland? That doesn't sound too local, is it your province or county? Some of us are lucky to live in counties with good growing land but the vast majority of Irish land is only good for grazing or tillage so that further restricts you. Its a good concept but only really workable in places like California were you have the climate, the sea and very good soils to produce a vide variation of food cheaply but not in Ireland.

the beer revolu · 05-10-2010 02:43PM

well I don't think it is practicable to consume only locally sourced food.
What I do is try to minimise the amount of imported foods that I buy and to try to support local producers as much as I can.
Obviously cost and quality will come into the equasion as well - I won't buy scabby, expensive potatoes just cause the come from co. Cork!

Examples would be:

I try not to buy asparagus except when UK asparagus is in season - the rest of the time it usually comes from Peru. However, sometimes I really want asparagus, so I will but the Peru stuff.

I buy, almost exclusively, Irish cheese (mozzerella would be an occasional exception). Drives me crazy when I see people buying Canadian Cheddar (factory produced) in Tesco.

We grow most of our herbs and so avoid buying imported herbs (although more and more of the fresh herbs seem to be Irish grown).

I will tell a supermarket manager that I am going to a rival supermarket because their spring onions are Irish as opposed to Mexican or US.

I will gererally choose Irish dried goods (again price and quality dependant).

If buying imported fruit I would favour, say, Spanish oranges over South African ones.

For me it is about doing what you can but being allowed to break the rules too.
I also try, with varying degrees of success (:mad:Arrrgh Canadian Chedder:eek:), not to be judgemental of other peoples buying habits

brianthebard · 05-10-2010 02:57PM

Not trying to be a dick tbr, but why do you allow yourself to buy SA asparagus sometimes but get annoyed with people buying Canadian cheddar? is it simply because of the range of Irish cheeses available? just curious.

More on topic, I think that eating solely locally sourced food is very region dependant - someone in parts of California, Canada or meditteranean countries will find it much easier to source a greater variety of foods locally year round than me in Galway/Sligo. There is however an obvious chicken and egg scenario at play; its true that the vast majority of garlic in the supermarkets is Chinese for example, but its fairly easy to grow garlic in Ireland. Demanding a lack of seasonality and a wide and exotic variety of available foods will not necessarily impact your life and diet positively, but will have negative environmental and economic consequences.
Personally with the wide variety of meat and fish available in Ireland I think its fair to say one should be able to source all their protein based needs easily and for those choices to be tastier than imported and frozen goods.
Vegetables would be much more seasonal and restricted, with winter having to depend on a mix of stored veg and fruit, preserves, brassicas and root veggies.
However, the use of a glasshouse and hotframes as well as sowing veg in line with the seasons could ensure a great variety of fruit and veg would be available to anyone in Ireland.
So to conclude that longwinded nonsense, we have a variety of choices but variety is not necessarily a good thing.

Ever2010 · 05-10-2010 03:02PM

Excellent topic!

Having completed our first year of growing veg ourselves I must say this is so much more of a concern for us now. I think we'll try to eat as seasonally and as locally as possible - obvious exceptions in our diet being bananas and avacados.

We're renting so have a small back-garden - unfortunately we didn't do enough to last us the year round but we've a bit of stock in the freezer, enough spuds to last until the christmas ones are dug up and enough garlic stored until next year's is ready.

I'm going to try not to eat any tomatoes until our own are ready again next year - have a couple of green ones here still ripening on the window sill and that will be it until next Summer!!!

the beer revolu · 05-10-2010 03:03PM

brianthebard wrote: »

Not trying to be a dick tbr, but why do you allow yourself to buy SA asparagus sometimes but get annoyed with people buying Canadian cheddar? is it simply because of the range of Irish cheeses available? just curious.

.

That is exactly why.
Very similar Irish products are available at a similar (probably cheaper) price.

brianthebard · 05-10-2010 03:14PM

Ever2010 wrote: »

Excellent topic!

Having completed our first year of growing veg ourselves I must say this is so much more of a concern for us now. I think we'll try to eat as seasonally and as locally as possible - obvious exceptions in our diet being bananas and avacados.

It doesn't have to be over yet if you get some cabbages, brussel sprouts, etc that will grow in the autumn. Might be a little late at this stage but something to think about for next year.

Corsendonk · 05-10-2010 04:16PM

the beer revolu wrote: »

well I don't think it is practicable to consume only locally sourced food.
What I do is try to minimise the amount of imported foods that I buy and to try to support local producers as much as I can.
Obviously cost and quality will come into the equasion as well - I won't buy scabby, expensive potatoes just cause the come from co. Cork!

Examples would be:

I try not to buy asparagus except when UK asparagus is in season - the rest of the time it usually comes from Peru. However, sometimes I really want asparagus, so I will but the Peru stuff.

I buy, almost exclusively, Irish cheese (mozzerella would be an occasional exception). Drives me crazy when I see people buying Canadian Cheddar (factory produced) in Tesco.

We grow most of our herbs and so avoid buying imported herbs (although more and more of the fresh herbs seem to be Irish grown).

I will tell a supermarket manager that I am going to a rival supermarket because their spring onions are Irish as opposed to Mexican or US.

I will gererally choose Irish dried goods (again price and quality dependant).

If buying imported fruit I would favour, say, Spanish oranges over South African ones.

For me it is about doing what you can but being allowed to break the rules too.
I also try, with varying degrees of success (:mad:Arrrgh Canadian Chedder:eek:), not to be judgemental of other peoples buying habits

Can I muddy the waters a little? Doesn't the majority of prepacked cheddar in Ireland get shipped in blocks to the UK and cut and packaged there? Then shipped back. If i remember correctly its the Kerry plant in Leek that was featured on the C4 Food programme last week. They also produce the diced chedder prepacks and wonder of wonders they cut Canadian Chedder that is sold into the Uk and Irish retail market. Incidentally Canadian Chedder has an excellent reputation and is produced in factories like Irish Chedder is, its just they have more grazing land and bigger herds in Canada. Actually about 5 years ago(it may have changed) Ireland was Europes largest producer of Mozzerela.

True on the point that there are more and more Irish grow herbs. That was due to EU investment that allowed two large herb growers in Ireland to invest in new growing facilities.

Spring Onions or as the natives like to call them Scallions can be grown year round in Ireland using a combination of outdoors and glasshouses but the quality can be very poor in the winter months so normally Mexican(never ever seen USA imported into Ireland before) is shipped via air from Mexico or the USA. If you think about the transport costs of air freighting them from Mexico you can understand why suppliers only want to use Mexican when needed and would rather supply Irish. Its one of those balancing acts, can you do without them for a 3-4 month period until Irish comes in but the consumer wants supply 365 days a year and the retailer wants there money. Seasonality again.

Dried goods- actually apart from some baking ingredients, snacks, tea and coffee blending, waters and some mineral lines there is a very low rate of groceries produced in Ireland so imports come into play.

I am a bit of a fruit snob so I would not buy on nearest destination alone as they could be stock left in store from the previous spanish harvest and the south african oranges could be freshly from that years harvest. Sometimes you see that in the large juicing packs that the retailers sell, the use the cheaper end of harvest stock while putting the newer imported countries in the premium smaller pack sizes. Also some countries have superior quality reputations such as New Zealand Apples etc. No point buying a product if its closer to home and you have to bin it. Remember also bulk lines like apples, plum are transport by hugh ships full of produce from the southern Hemisphere making the carbon foot print not as bad as you think it should be. Having said that I would avoid air freight on principle, so all those lovely baby veg and asparagus that people love to buy would be out the window.

Corsendonk · 05-10-2010 04:57PM

brianthebard wrote: »

However, the use of a glasshouse and hotframes as well as sowing veg in line with the seasons could ensure a great variety of fruit and veg would be available to anyone in Ireland.

I can grow bananas in Ireland if you give me enough money actually some nutcase in Cork tried it , the Victorians grew pineapples but it comes back to the cost. Typical greenhouse is designed to make max use of the sun so at night it loses 80% of its heat. So its not practical for small garden allotment growers to maintain crops through winter or colder spells at the start and end of season unless they wish to support the local oil man or Bord Gais.. So we are talking about regional factory units of greenhouses which goes away from most peoples image of the "Good Life" grower. And I don't think people have the will to go back to seasonality living. Even do from all historical accounts it may have been a boring diet at certain times of the year but people were alot more healthy when they had a plentiful supply of food than now.

brianthebard · 05-10-2010 05:21PM

hotframes don't necessarily require the use of heating systems, at least not the ones I'm thinking of, although there's probably newer forms. Regardless, I never suggested that was a means of providing tropical fruit. Quite the opposite. I suppose you're probably right that some people would be selfish even in the face of huge environmental or economic cost and demand their 'right' to a banana, but going back to a seasonal diet has no real downside except a slight reduction in tropical fruits which while tasty are not a necessity.

Corsendonk · 05-10-2010 06:00PM

brianthebard wrote: »

hotframes don't necessarily require the use of heating systems, at least not the ones I'm thinking of, although there's probably newer forms. Regardless, I never suggested that was a means of providing tropical fruit. Quite the opposite. I suppose you're probably right that some people would be selfish even in the face of huge environmental or economic cost and demand their 'right' to a banana, but going back to a seasonal diet has no real downside except a slight reduction in tropical fruits which while tasty are not a necessity.

I was just making the point that you can grow most produce in Ireland once you spend enough money on it but it must also be a practical balance. The garden and allotment are great ideas but in some areas of the country its hard to get allotments and there is a certain percentage of the population that have a great talent to kill any living plant placed in there care so you rely on local market gardeners.

Its not just tropical fruit such as pineapples, bananas, mango that you would no longer be able to eat but the citrus family too and Table grapes. Also we have Xmas falling in Winter so no fresh tomatoes, strawberries, blueberries, peppers, raspberries, cranberries(USA imports), lime, lemons, oranges, clementines, grapes, iceberg, spinach, peaches, sweetcorn etc. You can replace some with preserves and frozen product from growing earlier in the year but its harder to restrict people when they know what they can have.

brianthebard · 05-10-2010 06:25PM

I'm certain you can grow lemons in Ireland, and oranges in greenhouses. I don't see the link between christmas and the foods you mentioned? Christmas food is characterised by dried fruits and preserves made months in advance, its a good example of some connections to seasonal food that are still left in this country, and a sign that one can eat both well and seasonally.

Minder · 05-10-2010 06:46PM

Another point often overlooked in the Local Produce debate is the impact on economies that export food to Europe. There are millions of people who are dependant on our imports for their subsistence.

I remember an Actionaid campaign from some years ago about GM coffee. Coffee is hard to grow commercially because the beans ripen on the bushes at different times. One bush may be full of ripe beans and its neighbour is not. So coffee needs a large community of growers and pickers to harvest the crop. An American company wanted to genetically modify coffee so that it could be sprayed with a chemical that would trigger the ripening process. Bye bye small holders, hello Agri corp coffee.

Actionaid petitioned so that Coffee producers would have to clearly label their coffee as GM. Result is the Agri Corp Coffee is still a dream and the small holder, subsistence farmers retain their livelihood.

Saying that, there must be some elements of common sense. The importation of Polish blueberries to Ireland in the face of the best commercial blueberry crop ever grown in Ireland. A similar affair in the UK where Kent fruit growers couldn't sell their plums to supermarkets because the buyers were already committed to imports. That's just crazy.

Corsendonk · 05-10-2010 07:11PM

brianthebard wrote: »

I'm certain you can grow lemons in Ireland, and oranges in greenhouses. I don't see the link between christmas and the foods you mentioned? Christmas food is characterised by dried fruits and preserves made months in advance, its a good example of some connections to seasonal food that are still left in this country, and a sign that one can eat both well and seasonally.

I only mention them as examples because if you go to any supermarket they are among the produce lines that sell in hugh volumes at Xmas so someone must eat them or the rabbit gets spoilt rotten:) and its the worst season to grow in Ireland. Grapes with your cheese board, salad with your cold cuts etc. Traditionally Irish people like to lay on a spread at Xmas so your have your melon starter, fresh fruit pavlova or trifle topping etc replacing your preserves and dried fruit tradition in modern times.

So switching back to seasonality will diminish this aspect while leaving an opening for the richer members of society who can afford gardeners to impress their guests with the range of locally grown fruit and vegetables they can provide out of season at their table, which was exactly how the Victorians use to impress their guests hence the cultivation of pineapples as a talking point. Christmas food traditions constantly change with imports and food trends, goose replaced by turkey, cranberry replacing redcurrent preserve etc

You most likely could grow one or two citrus plants if carefully cared for but on a commercial scale to meet demand the cost to produce the slice of Lemon in the Gin and Tonic will cost more than the drink.

Also have we not already tampered too much with plants, increased the range of plants we now grow in Ireland and the growing methods to be truely seasonal like our forebearers?

Corsendonk · 05-10-2010 07:34PM

Minder wrote: »

Another point often overlooked in the Local Produce debate is the impact on economies that export food to Europe. There are millions of people who are dependant on our imports for their subsistence.

I remember an Actionaid campaign from some years ago about GM coffee. Coffee is hard to grow commercially because the beans ripen on the bushes at different times. One bush may be full of ripe beans and its neighbour is not. So coffee needs a large community of growers and pickers to harvest the crop. An American company wanted to genetically modify coffee so that it could be sprayed with a chemical that would trigger the ripening process. Bye bye small holders, hello Agri corp coffee.

Actionaid petitioned so that Coffee producers would have to clearly label their coffee as GM. Result is the Agri Corp Coffee is still a dream and the small holder, subsistence farmers retain their livelihood.

Saying that, there must be some elements of common sense. The importation of Polish blueberries to Ireland in the face of the best commercial blueberry crop ever grown in Ireland. A similar affair in the UK where Kent fruit growers couldn't sell their plums to supermarkets because the buyers were already committed to imports. That's just crazy.

Its a balance, the same argument is put forward for baby veg grown in Kenya. Provides jobs and much needed income for families in Kenya but also uses essential water supplies to grow the crops and causes damage to the environment as the product has to be air freighted to Europe.

To be fair the english plum is a different product than the product grown in spain chile south africa etc. They still grow alot of damsons and Victoria plums in the UK while imports are the brighter bigger red fruit varieties that the customer has grown use to. You need to re-educate the consumer to expect more russet or other skin blemishes to the english plums due to their climate and the taste of the victoria plum is good but its not the best traveller.

I hadn't heard they brought blueberry imports in while Irish blueberries were in season but thats standard commercial practice in Ireland. You can buy Irish tomatoes along side spanish, or lettuce from the UK Holland etc That is to force the local producers to drop there produce even do imported always commands a slightly better price.

There are some wonderful tasting local varieties of fruit around the world but when you stick them on a plane or boat and open the container the other end you quickly realise why the variety was never exported before when it rots or bruises easily. People buy with their eyes not their taste buds now and lack the knowledge of previous generations.

Minder · 05-10-2010 08:34PM

Corsendonk wrote: »

There are some wonderful tasting local varieties of fruit around the world but when you stick them on a plane or boat and open the container the other end you quickly realise why the variety was never exported before when it rots or bruises easily. People buy with their eyes not their taste buds now and lack the knowledge of previous generations.

The problem is exacerbated by advances in food packaging. Fresh fruit and veg is packaged with a variety of gases to prolong shelf life and food appearance. Once opened, the gas disperses and the fruit or veg quickly deteriorates. I but fresh herbs from my local chinese supermarket - perilla, vietnamese mint, thai basil and such. Always a fresh looking, vibrant green on the day I buy. 48 hours later, they are often a darkened, bruised looking shadow of the former glory I bought. To make matters worse, they are only sold in such large packets that I'd need to be using them constantly for a week to get through them.

Corsendonk · 06-10-2010 01:29PM

I wouldn't say food packaging is to blame. Very unusual mix of herbs, can I ask if any are grown in Ireland or this continent? Its a leafty green leaf, the natural shelf life without modified atmosphere packaging is pretty poor anyway so not surprised to what you see after opening the packs. The atmosphere only slows down the natural breakdown process.

Alot of fruit such as apples that we eat are stored in the same way to preserve the crunch and when properly removed from this storage method they are perfectly fine to eat for weeks after.

brianthebard · 06-10-2010 07:37PM

I'm quite confused about your posts OP, you seem to disagree with most arguments in favour of locally sourcing food, I'm not sure what your position is, can you tell us?

Minder · 06-10-2010 09:31PM

Corsendonk wrote: »

I wouldn't say food packaging is to blame. Very unusual mix of herbs, can I ask if any are grown in Ireland or this continent? Its a leafty green leaf, the natural shelf life without modified atmosphere packaging is pretty poor anyway so not surprised to what you see after opening the packs. The atmosphere only slows down the natural breakdown process.

Alot of fruit such as apples that we eat are stored in the same way to preserve the crunch and when properly removed from this storage method they are perfectly fine to eat for weeks after.

Interesting - my experience isn't based on anything other than what I observed. I'll try a test - two packages of same date herbs and see if they behave differently if I open one and leave the other closed.

The herbs are asian types not grown in Europe.

Corsendonk · 07-10-2010 04:40PM

brianthebard wrote: »

I'm quite confused about your posts OP, you seem to disagree with most arguments in favour of locally sourcing food, I'm not sure what your position is, can you tell us?

I actually favour it but just wanted to clear some of the myths that people have around it. Its like organics, its a lifestyle change that a certain demographic can either afford or has the necessary resources(land, space for chest freezers) or willpower to practice to any major level.

Its not something that we the vast majority of the population can practice a 100% but if we buy a couple more local produced products or make an effort to eat produce in season when its at its best and cheapest it will benefit the local economy and your health too.

Locally Sourced Food

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