I reckon Ivor Callely is going to win his case...

MrDarcy · 06-10-2010 11:31PM #1

This seems fairly open and shut to me to be honest, the committee's approach to this whole matter seems to be to be utterly and catastrophically flawed.

I reckon Callaly has managed to outfox them all, as much as it pains me to say it, this property junkie will probably be handed a fortune in damages by the court. Obviously the folks on the committee never dreamt that they would end up defending their deliberations in court...

lmimmfn · 06-10-2010 11:43PM

the way they were talking about it on the news on the radio yesterday it sounds like he might, if it does it will be an absolute outrage and what will it say about our 'above the law' politicians?

Maybe it will be more fun to see what happens afterwards if he does win

MrDarcy · 06-10-2010 11:53PM

Sorry Mod's meant to post this in Politics not Irish Economy....

I think it is right that he should win it. No matter what kind of a property snorting chancer anyone is, no matter how many times they have their house painted as part of a probable kickback or hand in receipts from a business that has long since gone bust, we should never tolerate a situation where due process and fair procedure can be set aside in order to appease public outrage.

That might sound like I'm being a troll, but the worst thing we could allow the likes of Callely to do would be to accept that because of him, we should have to tolerate a gradual watering down of what we believe is a fair hearing.

That in my view is moving dangerously close to the kind of set up you would see in Zimbabwe...

Kristopherus · 06-10-2010 11:53PM

In a perverse kind of way I'm hoping he does. That will depend on whether the Court decides it has jurisdiction. But I am sure that the Expenses regime for TDs & Senators has been couched in such a way that a coach & four can be driven through it. The Regulations are configured in such a way that you can make a legitimate case for almost any scenario. The Investigators are very anxious to prove the Court has no jurisdiction, because I suspect, they know full well the Court will come down on Callely's side, at the same time admonishing the system for being so loose.

jimmycrackcorm · 07-10-2010 12:02AM

Perhaps then the court will explain how due process should be upheld for Calelly yet he cannot be removed from the seanad by due process?

07-10-2010 12:14AM

Callely was scapegoated because, as a senator, his seat didnt matter to the government..he was a FF sacrificial lamb..

MrDarcy · 07-10-2010 01:21AM

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Perhaps then the court will explain how due process should be upheld for Calelly yet he cannot be removed from the seanad by due process?

The consequence of what you have pointed out there is hugely important, because Callely wasn't Elected to his office but casually appointed.

Ordinarily, it could be argued that the appointment of Callely to office could be attached to the political acceptance of the electorate and under no circumstances should that ever be interfered with, however in this case, and constitutionally it's the very same thing I suppose, he was appointed by the Taoiseach of the day.

I'm not for the aboishment of the Seanad, but I'm hugely of the opinion that this notion of places being reserved for univertities and political appointments, if we cannot genuinely get beyond this kind of rubbish in 2010, we may as well stick the Lord Lieutenant back down in the park.

bamboozle · 07-10-2010 09:10AM

as a constituent of Callely's (Clontarf not Cork) i've endured this leech on society for years and his hideous election campaigns (my personal favourite was the flyer of 2 penguins on a piece of drifting ice with the caption we need to save the environment...while at the same time ivor was driving his 3.5 Litre Land Rover Sport)

however i actually hope he wins this case because it will be the final nail in the coffin for politicians expenses in their current format, pressure will be on to fully overhaul the expense regime to ensure full transperacy.

as for the Seanad, the last time it rejected a bill passed to it from dail eireann was in the 1960's..it serves zero purpose and we cant afford to have 60 overpaid tools sitting doing nothing of any relevance to this state. The 30 million it costs to run the seanad could be far better used building schools to educate our children in this 'smart economy' or politicians are waffling about.

Nijmegen · 07-10-2010 09:42AM

The senate would be a useful instrument if the oireachtas itself were a more useful organisation.

In general, I agree with the idea that men like Shane Ross are given a platform - which they use - to attack government waste and problems in this country. The idea of putting non-political experts into the houses is a good one.

But, the Oireachtas has no teeth. In committee it's great to have dogs like Ross who will chase every car of quango waste, poor decision making and questionable morals.

But what good is that if the people being questioned are not obliged to answer? Or under oath?

Look to the US, where committee hearings had bankers, oil men and leaders up front and foursquare to take a lashing and explain themselves.

Why has the Oireachtas got no teeth?

As for Callely, one tooth the Oireachtas should have is the power to impeach a member. If all of our elected (and appointed) officials in the Oireachtas vote in majority to pass legislation, it is because they are representing the people.

If they vote in majority to censure or impeach a member, they are acting on behalf of the people. That person can run in an election afterwards if they want to see if the people will have them back.

dvpower · 07-10-2010 10:06AM

bamboozle wrote: »

as a constituent of Callely's (Clontarf not Cork) i've endured this leech on society for years and his hideous election campaigns (my personal favourite was the flyer of 2 penguins on a piece of drifting ice with the caption we need to save the environment...while at the same time ivor was driving his 3.5 Litre Land Rover Sport)

But ... but.. he needed that Land Rover for all of that driving up and down to Cork.:pac:

bamboozle · 07-10-2010 10:34AM

dvpower wrote: »

But ... but.. he needed that Land Rover for all of that driving up and down to Cork.:pac:

not really, that was the land rover that was converted at state expense to transport his arthritic mother in law about, probably not the most sensible choice of vehicle to transport somebody with bad arthritis about.

to get up and down to Cork he uses his Jaguar.

bamboozle · 07-10-2010 10:36AM

Nijmegen wrote: »

The senate would be a useful instrument if the oireachtas itself were a more useful organisation.

In general, I agree with the idea that men like Shane Ross are given a platform - which they use - to attack government waste and problems in this country. The idea of putting non-political experts into the houses is a good one.

But, the Oireachtas has no teeth. In committee it's great to have dogs like Ross who will chase every car of quango waste, poor decision making and questionable morals.

But what good is that if the people being questioned are not obliged to answer? Or under oath?

Look to the US, where committee hearings had bankers, oil men and leaders up front and foursquare to take a lashing and explain themselves.

Why has the Oireachtas got no teeth?

As for Callely, one tooth the Oireachtas should have is the power to impeach a member. If all of our elected (and appointed) officials in the Oireachtas vote in majority to pass legislation, it is because they are representing the people.

If they vote in majority to censure or impeach a member, they are acting on behalf of the people. That person can run in an election afterwards if they want to see if the people will have them back.

why dont we just get rid of the seanad, reduce the Dail by 25% of seats and then allocate maybe 5-10 seats for experienced professionals like Senator Quinn & Ross to sit in the dail as watch dogs.

Liam Byrne · 07-10-2010 10:40AM

bamboozle wrote: »

not really, that was the land rover that was converted at state expense to transport his arthritic mother in law about, probably not the most sensible choice of vehicle to transport somebody with bad arthritis about.

to get up and down to Cork he uses his Jaguar.

That's the mother in law that lives 200 odd miles away from him in Dublin ?

In that case every time she wanted a lift somewhere he'd have to drive "home" from the Dáil in the jag, collect the Land Rover, drive up to give his mother in law the lift somewhere, drive "home" again to Cork, before driving up the following day in the jag.

Phew!!!! No wonder the poor guy needed the 20 day holiday....

Nijmegen · 07-10-2010 10:50AM

bamboozle wrote: »

why dont we just get rid of the seanad, reduce the Dail by 25% of seats and then allocate maybe 5-10 seats for experienced professionals like Senator Quinn & Ross to sit in the dail as watch dogs.

Why not? I agree there has to be a model that's a lot cheaper and more effective than what we've got today, with nearly (or over?) 200 walking expense accounts.

bamboozle · 07-10-2010 01:00PM

Liam Byrne wrote: »

That's the mother in law that lives 200 odd miles away from him in Dublin ?

In that case every time she wanted a lift somewhere he'd have to drive "home" from the Dáil in the jag, collect the Land Rover, drive up to give his mother in law the lift somewhere, drive "home" again to Cork, before driving up the following day in the jag.

Phew!!!! No wonder the poor guy needed the 20 day holiday....

Poor Ivor, well he's always claimed the full milage allowance, in fact he had to pay some back after it was revealed he claimed twice in 1 month...

barney4001 · 07-10-2010 04:33PM

bamboozle wrote: »

why dont we just get rid of the seanad, reduce the Dail by 25% of seats and then allocate maybe 5-10 seats for experienced professionals like Senator Quinn & Ross to sit in the dail as watch dogs.

Now ye really are talking sense

ingalway · 03-11-2010 09:37PM

What ever happened to Ivor? Is he still at work and still claiming expenses from Cork? It all seems to have gone very quiet.

I reckon Ivor Callely is going to win his case...

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