Pacing for Dublin Marathon

Cindyss · 04-10-2010 09:16PM #1

Hi All,
Starting to get a bit excited with the DCM coming up have trained away all year and feel quite confident. Did the Dingle 1/2 in 1.48, (really hilly),
Have done 1 18 miler, 2 20's and a 22. Just did the Cork to Cobh yesterday, I said I would not bring a watch and run around the course witjout feeling out of breath, finished it in 2hrs and 1/2 minute without running out of my skin at all. Originally I said 4hrs for my 1st marathon would be great but you know how we are, Opinions of experienced marathoners needed, run with 4 hrs pacers and see how I am after 20 odd miles or go with 3.45 with the option of slowing if needed,sorry for the long post, Gary

meathcountysec · 04-10-2010 09:30PM

My first as well so feel free to ignore:o

Go slow with an option to push on rather than faster and end up slower than you intended

Woundedknee. · 04-10-2010 09:45PM

meathcountysec wrote: »

Go slow with an option to push on rather than faster and end up slower than you intended

That's advice that will get you to the finish line of any race or event.

Stark · 04-10-2010 09:53PM

2 hours for Cork to Cobh should see you do 3:45 fairly handily for the marathon I reckon. I'd say go with the 3:45 pacers.

cwgatling · 04-10-2010 11:42PM

I'd be looking at sub 3:45 if I was you. 3 runs of 20 or more is very good prep for that time.
FWIW, a 15 miler in 2 hours gives a 3:41 marathon on McMillan. Best of luck with it.

Cindyss · 05-10-2010 12:01AM

Thanks, Ran 5 * 8.5 m/m to start with yesterday and sped up a little
which was good but I am so afraid of blowing up and feeling like a fool,
At the same time if I finished and thought I could have ran faster it will kill me as well, I am sure this is an age old dilema for us all

Condo131 · 05-10-2010 09:03AM

Using this calculator, your predicted time comes in somewhere between 3:35 and 3:51, depending on which formula used.

You say that you ran "without running out of my skin at all", so you should be well capable of the above time range.

Based on your info, I'd suggest going with the 3:45 pacers until 18 or 20 and then maybe picking it up if you can. You can always review things anytime you want. If you do want to 'pick it up', do it gradually.

Whatever you do, ensure that you do NOT go out too fast - I don't think you will, but it easy to get caught up in the mass euphoria.

Good luck!

Donkeygonads · 05-10-2010 09:23AM

I ran the dublin Marathon last year, first time and was aiming for under 4 hours ..... for the first few miles it was quite slow and bunched until I got to the Park .... there I was behind the 4 hr pacers and I thought, Jaysus I can go a little faster than this ..... so I lengthened my stride until I hit a couple of the hills and then by mile 20 I hit the wall ..... and it was horrible ..... by mile 22, I was walking / running - the 4 hr pacers passed me as I was struggling ... it almost brought me to tears when I lost sight of them ....... that last 4 miles felt like 40 and it was a slogg to the finish ..... ended up finishing in 4 hr 10 min ......... so my best advice...........STAY WITH THE PACERS !!!!! When you cross that Line, its the best feeling in the world !!!:D

Moycullen1 · 05-10-2010 10:19AM

You haven't mentioned the pace of your 4 LSR's which I believe is very important. A lot of programs suggest you should run your LSR's at a minute slower than goal pace but to my mind I think it is a lot to try and take a minute off your training pace especially when you are adding on 6 miles. Personally I feel 30 to 40 seconds is a safer target. I also use another yardstick which i think is appropriate for the 3:45 to 4hr runner and that is that you need to be able to run a tempo run of six or seven miles at about 45 seconds faster than goal pace without being wrecked afterwards, ie somewhere between 10k and half marathon pace.

I always refer to an old tip i was given. Basically you should feel like you are holding yourself back for the first third of the marathon, then running at a steady but comfortable pace for the second third and so being able to take the strain of the final third without a significant drop in pace. By the way just to explain this strategy it doesn't mean you run three different paces but rather you try and pick a pace that you can more or less maintain throughout. The one problem with this strategy is that you run the risk of not getting the most out of yourself. However as already pointed out a blow out is horrible and at the end of the day the main thing is that you enjoy the event, safely!

Cindyss · 05-10-2010 07:57PM

Thanks for all your replies, they are very helpful.

Moycullen the pace of my long runs was roughly 9.50 m/m

I ran my last LSR 22 miles the first 16 at 10 m/m the next 5 at less than 9 m/m and last just slowed right down to chill.

Did a 10k East Clare 3 weeks ago in 45.30, I would be delighted with around 3.50 which would give me lots of scope for improvement.
My current motto is go very slow at the beginning there is nothing as good as passing people late on to spur you on.
Good luck to all the DCM runners, I was to scared to put a log up as I was afraid of failure,
I followed Hal Hidgon Inter 1 plan which was great
Gary

Moycullen1 · 06-10-2010 10:24AM

Cindyss that was a good 10k and the 22 will definitely stand to you. I don't think it would be crazy to start off with the 3:45 pacers and with good rest and a taper before the event that pace (8:30m/m based on 26.5 miles) shouldn't trouble you. Even if you weaken slightly towards the end you should still end up with a really good time.

paulb79 · 06-10-2010 12:25PM

yea cant decide to go with 4 hour pacers or 3 45, last 20 miler took 2.48 so dont know what to do ,

RayCun · 06-10-2010 12:31PM

paulb79 wrote: »

yea cant decide to go with 4 hour pacers or 3 45, last 20 miler took 2.48 so dont know what to do ,

What about race times? have you done any?

Bez Bing · 06-10-2010 12:40PM

paulb79 wrote: »

yea cant decide to go with 4 hour pacers or 3 45, last 20 miler took 2.48 so dont know what to do ,

I'm in the same boat Paulb79, originally my aim was sub 4 but now I think I could go faster. Did my 20 miler on Sunday in 2h 49.
Think I might start out with the 4 hour pacers for first 5 or so miles and see how I feel then

Moycullen1 · 06-10-2010 12:47PM

paulb79 wrote: »

yea cant decide to go with 4 hour pacers or 3 45, last 20 miler took 2.48 so dont know what to do ,

I have done several marathons between 3:40 and 3:50 and most of my 20's would be between 8:45 and 9m/m. My first sub 4hr marathon was a 3:44 in Barcelona in 2007 for which I had done 3 13's, 1 15, 2 17's and 1 20. Excluding the 20 which was 9:15 the average pace for the other runs was 8:50. As mentioned earlier if you can manage a six or seven mile tempo run at 7:45 ish I feel 3:45 is worth a shot.

paulb79 · 06-10-2010 12:47PM

yea 45.40 for 10k 35.50 5mile 1.19 ten mile 1.43 half marathon ,

RayCun · 06-10-2010 12:49PM

paulb79 wrote: »

yea 45.40 for 10k 35.50 5mile 1.19 ten mile 1.43 half marathon ,

They sound on target for a 3.45 marathon

RayCun · 06-10-2010 12:50PM

Bez Bing wrote: »

Think I might start out with the 4 hour pacers for first 5 or so miles and see how I feel then

I'm sure you'll feel great after 5 miles, but I don't think that's any indication of how you'll be feeling after 15/20.

paulb79 · 06-10-2010 12:51PM

happy days cheers raycun

Bez Bing · 06-10-2010 01:12PM

RayCun wrote: »

I'm sure you'll feel great after 5 miles, but I don't think that's any indication of how you'll be feeling after 15/20.

I guess that's the problem, go off too fast, you die after 20 miles, go off too slow and you don't do yourself justice. One can read all the books, articles, pace calculators out there but in the end having never run 26.2 miles before getting the pace spot on is next to impossible first time out.

RayCun · 06-10-2010 01:36PM

Bez Bing wrote: »

I guess that's the problem, go off too fast, you die after 20 miles, go off too slow and you don't do yourself justice. One can read all the books, articles, pace calculators out there but in the end having never run 26.2 miles before getting the pace spot on is next to impossible first time out.

I think it really helps to have run some races, not just all training runs. In a training run you can go at whatever pace, but you don't really know how much you've got left in reserve.

Bez Bing · 06-10-2010 01:58PM

RayCun wrote: »

I think it really helps to have run some races, not just all training runs. In a training run you can go at whatever pace, but you don't really know how much you've got left in reserve.

Definitely agree, but for 10K/ 5 mile races there is not much to the pacing.Within reason you can run hard and try to hold on, plus more often than not you will have run the distance before the race so you have that confidence. Half marathons the same, before I ran any previous half I would have run at least 12 miler in training.
But the marathon is a whole different ball game, only having run 20 miles in training which is only 3/4's of the full distance leaves a lot of questions about what pace to run at.
From experienced marathon runners the consensus seems to be to err on the conservative side and make sure you finish with a smile rather than 5 - 10 mins faster with a grimness.

Moycullen1 · 06-10-2010 02:36PM

Bez Bing wrote: »

From experienced marathon runners the consensus seems to be to err on the conservative side and make sure you finish with a smile rather than 5 - 10 mins faster with a grimness.

Although everything I've said would espouse the benefits of a comfortable and more importantly safe finish especially for the first one or two marathons I would still confess that if you ever see an experienced marathoner finishing with a smile on his/her face I can guarantee this will swiftly be replaced by a grimace once they've left the finish area and realised they haven't left it all on the course. There is a fine line between doing enough and doing too much though. Even five or ten seconds a mile is enough to make the difference between a strong finish and a complete blow out at mile twenty. Realistically it comes down to two things luck and experience neither of which are easy to come by. Some people like The McMillan running calculator, some people use the half marathon time by two & 10 minutes. As this stage after 11 marathons the only thing that has been relatively reliable for me is the LSR pace minus 40 seconds combined with the 6 mile tempo pace & 40 seconds. Honestly though a lot also depends on how you feel on the day and how well your mid race gels and nutrition get absorbed.

Bez Bing · 06-10-2010 02:55PM

Moycullen1 wrote: »

Although everything I've said would espouse the benefits of a comfortable and more importantly safe finish especially for the first one or two marathons I would still confess that if you ever see an experienced marathoner finishing with a smile on his/her face I can guarantee this will swiftly be replaced by a grimace once they've left the finish area and realised they haven't left it all on the course. There is a fine line between doing enough and doing too much though. Even five or ten seconds a mile is enough to make the difference between a strong finish and a complete blow out at mile twenty. Realistically it comes down to two things luck and experience neither of which are easy to come by. Some people like The McMillan running calculator, some people use the half marathon time by two & 10 minutes. As this stage after 11 marathons the only thing that has been relatively reliable for me is the LSR pace minus 40 seconds combined with the 6 mile tempo pace & 40 seconds. Honestly though a lot also depends on how you feel on the day and how well your mid race gels and nutrition get absorbed.

That seems like some pretty sound advice Moycullen and combining all your pace indicators seem to land me at a similar pace. Thanks!

TFBubendorfer · 06-10-2010 03:56PM

Moycullen1 wrote: »

if you ever see an experienced marathoner finishing with a smile on his/her face I can guarantee this will swiftly be replaced by a grimace once they've left the finish area and realised they haven't left it all on the course.

Not true. I finished Dingle last year with a MASSIVE smile on my face and I can guarantee you that I had left every ounce of strength on the course. The smile came from knowing that I had run a great race, not because I was feeling so comfortable (far from it).

Moycullen1 · 06-10-2010 04:15PM

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

Not true. I finished Dingle last year with a MASSIVE smile on my face and I can guarantee you that I had left every ounce of strength on the course. The smile came from knowing that I had run a great race, not because I was feeling so comfortable (far from it).

I should have included an exclamation mark or a smiley if I used them to indicate that my comment was slightly 'tongue in cheek'! After all I would be the first person to state that any marathon is a good marathon be it 2:30 or 8:30. Understandably most people no matter how drained they are will find the energy from somewhere for a smile when they hear that final beep from the last timing mat.

Aiel · 07-10-2010 01:16PM

My first marathon.I'd be lying if i said i was just looking to finish it but i have to be humble and say that i wont be running a fast time.Did 18miles on Monday night in around 2hr 45.My route though took me along the Prom(twice) in Salthill in Galway which at the time had a very strong head wind blowing into me so that would have affected my time a bit i think.Did a couple of times around that for that distance though.Trying for 21 on Sunday on a more sheltered course.The 4 hr 30 mark will be my humble mark to try achieve:).Will try for around 4 hours next year hopefully.
Forgive my huge ignorance but i seen on youtube for the marathon that theres guys running with balloons that say "4hrs","4:30" etc.I assume everyone around those guys are looking to do that particular time yes?

RayCun · 07-10-2010 01:35PM

Yes, the runners with balloons (and signs this year) are pacers. They are experienced runners who have run faster times, and are running Dublin at an easier pace (for them). This means they can run steadily all the way around, at a very even pace, and expect to finish within a minute on the low side of their target time. There's a 4.30 pace group, which will be starting in the 4.15+ area.

Incidentally, are you following a training plan? Most plans would say you should be reducing your mileage at this point, not going for another longer run.

Bez Bing · 07-10-2010 01:53PM

I have another query on marathon pacing, so at the start I choose a pace and it seems to be going well, body is feeling good when would be the time to up it a little?

I see Catriona McKiernan mentioned on the facebook DCM page that the race starts at 20 miles, would this be the stage to up the pace a little if you felt you could? My fear is upping it too soon and fading badly or equally as bad finishing with plenty or even a little in the tank?

Experienced marathoners any suggestions?

Aiel · 07-10-2010 01:57PM

Thanks for the information.In relation to a plan- ive been sticking more or less to one in the Runners World magazine from earlier this year but injuries during the summer have meant im not at the level i should be at for that particular plan.I have been reducing my mileage gradually each week for the last few weeks but just wanted one more long run,not sure why:).

Moycullen1 · 07-10-2010 02:58PM

Bez Bing wrote: »

I have another query on marathon pacing, so at the start I choose a pace and it seems to be going well, body is feeling good when would be the time to up it a little?

I see Catriona McKiernan mentioned on the facebook DCM page that the race starts at 20 miles, would this be the stage to up the pace a little if you felt you could? My fear is upping it too soon and fading badly or equally as bad finishing with plenty or even a little in the tank?

Experienced marathoners any suggestions?

Unless you have a particular reason for wanting to speed up late on I'm not sure I would bother. It is very hard to achieve a negative split and you are doing it at a point when all hell can start to break out in your body. The problem is sometimes the crash doesn't happen gradually. The scary thing is that you will read loads and loads of race reports where people were going along fine and out of the blue over a distance of two or three hundred metres they go from tipping along nicely to looking at their legs wondering why they have stopped. What CMcK means I suspect is that mile 20 is when things are liable to go pear shaped and you can come under immense pressure both physically and mentally and that you really need to concentrate and work at keeping to target. I am genuinely not exaggerating when I say you can run into difficulty in a very short space of time. For that reason I wouldn't be aiming to make up a couple of minutes over the last five or six miles. Things could get really ugly as a result.

Its one thing to pick it up after five or ten miles but increasing your pace at 20 is risky. It's slightly different for the serious runners. If you read posts encouraging you to pick it up between 18 and 20 miles realistically they are aimed at the more serious, and experienced runners not really someone doing their first or second marathon. BTW, I dont mean that is a condescending way. By serious runner I mean anyone aiming to come under 3:15 or 3 hours and that most certainly excludes my good self!!

Pacing for Dublin Marathon

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