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Israeli soldiers convicted for using Palestinian children to check booby-traps

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  • 04-10-2010 12:49am
    #1
    SugarHigh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,265 ✭✭✭


    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-11462635
    An Israeli military court has convicted two Israeli soldiers for using a Palestinian child as a human shield during an offensive in Gaza in 2009.
    The soldiers were found guilty of reckless endangerment and conduct unbecoming for forcing the nine-year-old boy to check suspected booby-traps.
    It is reportedly the first such conviction in Israel - where the use of civilians as human shields is banned.
    The sentencing will be decided at a later date, the court said.
    No protection On Sunday, the southern command military court found the two Israeli soldiers guilty of "exceeding their authority to the point of endangering life" and conduct unbecoming in the incident in Gaza City's suburb of Tel al-Hawa on 15 January 2009.


    A summary of the verdict said that - when rounding up residents of Tel al-Hawa - the soldiers came across bags in a home and ordered the Palestinian boy to search for suspected booby-traps.
    "The boy, who feared for his fate and was under the stress of the situation, wet his pants," the three-judge panel wrote in the summary of the verdict.
    "The court has noted that, unlike the soldiers, the child was, naturally, bereft of any form of protection."
    However, the court acknowledged that at the time the soldiers - whose names have not been released - had been under "difficult and dangerous conditions".
    The bags that the boy - identified only as Majd R - had checked did not have any hidden explosives and the child was later returned to his family unharmed.
    Israel launched its Gaza offensive in December 2008, saying it was aimed at halting Palestinian rocket attacks from the territory controlled by militant Hamas movement.
    Some 1,400 Palestinians and 13 Israelis were killed during the 22-day fighting.
    Last year's report by UN investigator Richard Goldstone accused both Israel and Hamas of war crimes during the fighting.

    It really shows how dehumanized Palestinians are to some Israelis
    Tagged:


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Comments

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    #2
    Celly Smunt
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,464 ✭✭✭Celly Smunt


    damn juice.


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    #3
    strobe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    Not surprised in the slightest. Which is pretty sickening in itself.

    IBTSA (In before the scumbag apologists)


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    #4
    citizen_p
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,494 ✭✭✭citizen_p


    from ops source
    It is reportedly the first such conviction in Israel - where the use of civilians as human shields is banned.

    theres always one egit that does somthing so wrong and new, that a ban has to be put in place against it.

    "why are ya doing that"
    "well, theres no law against it"


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    #5
    Chaotic_Forces
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,659 ✭✭✭Chaotic_Forces


    So what? It's a damn war. People do messed up things. It's not as if it's a peaceful place. Psychopaths can do more stuff during a war than if we were all sitting around being happy and loving.


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    #6
    SV
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,534 ✭✭✭SV


    That's twisted...
    Chaotic_Forces wrote: »
    So what? It's a damn war. People do messed up things. It's not as if it's a peaceful place. Psychopaths can do more stuff during a war than if we were all sitting around being happy and loving.

    Yes it's a war, there should still be no 'So what?' attitude about it, It's a horribly sick thing to do/happen. Nothing excuses it.


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    #7
    Chaotic_Forces
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,659 ✭✭✭Chaotic_Forces


    SV wrote: »
    That's twisted...



    Yes it's a war, there should still be no 'So what?' attitude about it, It's a horribly sick thing to do/happen. Nothing excuses it.

    Why shouldn't there be? It's not as if I'm saying "oh well lads, go and do it again". It's just not shocking to me, war generally turns normal people a bit loopy and brings out the psycho in people. Couple that with hate of a certain people and you've got horrible things happening.

    I'm not saying it was fine to do just that it's not shocking and I don't think people should find it shocking.


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    #8
    Ronin247
    Registered Users Posts: 1,256 ✭✭✭Ronin247


    How could they be so inhuman.....Its not like the poor Palestinians have ever used children as human shields or to carry weapons is it???

    There are no recorded incidents of Isreali suicide bombers in the Palestinian markets or the high street.

    Oh the poor downtrodden Palestinians.


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    #9
    Augmerson
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,162 ✭✭✭Augmerson


    In before the friends of Israel arrive.


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    #10
    round tower huntsman
    Registered Users Posts: 804 ✭✭✭round tower huntsman


    what about the holacaust? eh!


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    #11
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Augmerson wrote: »
    In before the friends of Israel arrive.

    Obviously not...but you were close..


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    #12
    jugger0
    Registered Users Posts: 1,453 ✭✭✭jugger0


    Well its a war, its not nice.


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    #13
    Celly Smunt
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,464 ✭✭✭Celly Smunt


    round tower huntsman wrote: »
    what about the holacaust? eh!
    never happened,ill now run off to the CT forum


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    #14
    karma_
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭karma_


    Chaotic_Forces wrote: »
    Why shouldn't there be? It's not as if I'm saying "oh well lads, go and do it again". It's just not shocking to me, war generally turns normal people a bit loopy and brings out the psycho in people. Couple that with hate of a certain people and you've got horrible things happening.

    I'm not saying it was fine to do just that it's not shocking and I don't think people should find it shocking.

    That attitude says more about you than anything else.


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    #15
    Chaotic_Forces
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,659 ✭✭✭Chaotic_Forces


    karma_ wrote: »
    That attitude says more about you than anything else.

    What's that supposed to mean?


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    #16
    ScissorPaperRock
    Registered Users Posts: 2,708 ✭✭✭ScissorPaperRock


    Ronin247 wrote: »
    How could they be so inhuman.....Its not like the poor Palestinians have ever used children as human shields or to carry weapons is it???

    There are no recorded incidents of Isreali suicide bombers in the Palestinian markets or the high street.

    Oh the poor downtrodden Palestinians.


    It was a 9 year old f****** kid.

    It's wrong under any circumstances. He's a helpless victim regardless of who did what before.


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    #17
    KevinVonSpiel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 522 ✭✭✭KevinVonSpiel


    Chaotic_Forces wrote: »
    What's that supposed to mean?

    It means that you are a bad person &, therefore, karma, henceforth, will not look favorably upon you...


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    #18
    SugarHigh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,265 ✭✭✭SugarHigh


    Augmerson wrote: »
    In before the friends of Israel arrive.
    To be fair there really shouldn't be any need to defend Israel on this because it's not like it's an official policy to use kids as shields. The people who did this were convicted by an Israeli court so it's clear most Israeli's do not find this exceptable.

    If someone in the Irish Defense Forces was to go mad and start killing kids should the whole of Ireland have to defend it self?

    I'm not an Israeli supporter by the way it's just that in this specific case I don't see how it's the state of Israel that's at fault because of the actions by 2 rogue soldiers.


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    #19
    Jim
    Registered Users Posts: 14,181 ✭✭✭✭Jim


    It is reportedly the first such conviction in Israel - where the use of civilians as human shields is banned.

    They need to make a point of it. lolololololol


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    #20
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    I am not even surprised. Scum.


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    #21
    strobe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    strobe wrote: »
    IBTSA (In before the scumbag apologists)
    Ronin247 wrote: »
    How could they be so inhuman.....Its not like the poor Palestinians have ever used children as human shields or to carry weapons is it???

    There are no recorded incidents of Isreali suicide bombers in the Palestinian markets or the high street.

    Oh the poor downtrodden Palestinians.

    Blamo! Who had 17 minutes in the pool?


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    #22
    Doc
    Registered Users Posts: 2,670 ✭✭✭Doc


    strobe wrote: »
    Blamo! Who had 17 minutes in the pool?

    I know its crazy to think that some people are justifying it when the Israelis themselves are not!


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    #23
    speedboatchase
    Registered Users Posts: 5,777 ✭✭✭speedboatchase


    What's with all the anti-Israel articles in AH, I thought this place was meant to be fun? In other news, Palestinians families frequently strap explosives to their teenage sons or daughters with the pure intent of blowing up innocent civilians. But I digress...


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    #24
    arybvtcw0eolkf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,878 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    speedboatchase wrote: »
    What's with all the anti-Israel articles in AH, I thought this place was meant to be fun? In other news, Palestinians families frequently strap explosives to their teenage sons or daughters with the pure intent of blowing up innocent civilians. But I digress...

    Well regardless, two supposedly professional soldiers sent a nine year old to check for booby traps, that should be illegal in any man's army.

    In this case the IDF deemed it illegal and convicted the soldiers.

    In Israel a conviction leading to imprisonment or discharge from the military can have life long consequences, ie unlikely to find employment, college places and exclusion from other state services - and good enough for the idiots.


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    #25
    Zebra3
    Registered Users Posts: 13,859 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    Ronin247 wrote: »
    There are no recorded incidents of Isreali suicide bombers in the Palestinian markets or the high street.

    That's cos the Israelis drop their huge bombs from high up in the sky from expensive planes paid for by the American taxpayer.


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    #26
    Einhard
    Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    SugarHigh wrote: »

    I'm not an Israeli supporter by the way it's just that in this specific case I don't see how it's the state of Israel that's at fault because of the actions by 2 rogue soldiers.

    Oh but you are. You have a relatively nuanced view of the incident at hand, and don't use it to reflexively slam Israel, so therefore you're a "friend of Israel" and an inhman scumbag. That's how it works here you see.


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    #27
    Dyr
    Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    SugarHigh wrote: »
    To be fair there really shouldn't be any need to defend Israel on this because it's not like it's an official policy to use kids as shields. The people who did this were convicted by an Israeli court so it's clear most Israeli's do not find this exceptable.

    I'm think it was the IDF's policy a few years back to use human shields, the israeli courts stopped them.


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    #28
    Einhard
    Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    strobe wrote: »
    Not surprised in the slightest. Which is pretty sickening in itself.

    IBTSA (In before the scumbag apologists)
    SV wrote: »
    That's twisted...

    You're correct in that such behaviour is to be condemned, but what exactly is not surprising? That the two were convicted in an Israeli court? That such behaviour is explicitly banned in Israeli law? I'm not sure how this story can be used to have a go at the state of Israel, as opposed to the two miscreants involved.


    Yes it's a war, there should still be no 'So what?' attitude about it, It's a horribly sick thing to do/happen. Nothing excuses it.

    The problem is that a lot of people here exploit such events to have a go at Israel, irregardless of whether it's warranted. Thus we have a story about how an Israeli court investigated and convicted two soldiers, and yet somehow it turns into active condemnation of Israel.
    Augmerson wrote: »
    In before the friends of Israel arrive.

    Friends of nuance, and opponents of knee jerk reaction more like. You lover of suicide bombers you.*

    *See how easy to give idiotic labels to people who hold a different opinion to you?
    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    I am not even surprised. Scum.

    Yes, the soldiers involved were scum. Happily, the Israeli court recognised this, and convicted them So, we can all agree that this story reflects well on Israel.
    Doc wrote: »
    I know its crazy to think that some people are justifying it when the Israelis themselves are not!

    Exactly. Israel themselves are not justifying it. Yet, to judge from the reaction of some here, you'd swear that the soldiers were not only cleared of all charges, but hoisted onto the shoulders of the judges, and cheered through the town, before receiving medals of honour for serices to the state. Rather than, ummmm, convicting them for crimes. Which now, it seems, is a bad thing if done Israel has done it/


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    #29
    KyussBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    Responses to a couple of repetative arguments: (I realize some people have said these things, without arguing against discussion; it doesn't apply to them)

    1: "So what? I'm not surprised/well it's a war/this isn't exactly news/etc.":
    Just because bad events happen very often between Israel/Palestine, and people are not often surprised by much anymore, doesn't mean events aren't newsworthy or aren't worth posting about.

    The opposite actually, because the more routine these kind of events are, the more they turn into bare 'statistics', the less empathy people are going to have towards people in these conflicts and the less people will care; this stuff needs to be talked about more, and often, not just in spite of people not being surprised/caring, but because of that.

    Really good article the other day from Ben Goldacre, which touches on a semi-related topic, which is interesting in the context of this:
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/oct/02/ben-goldacre-bad-science-crime-punishment-empathy


    2: "Well it's not like the Palestinians haven't done the same":
    If true, this doesn't make it any less newsworthy, and (to take it to a length which hasn't been said) if such an argument is applied to imply hypocrisy, for not mentioning that Palestinians may do the same thing, then that is a false argument because:
    - Nobody has made the claim saying Palestinians don't do the same, and there is nothing said to imply people hold them to a different standard
    - Even if it were hypocrisy, that would not invalidate an argument, or make this less newsworthy; it stands by itself
    - Israeli crimes are more frequent, on a larger scale (thus far more disproportionate), and show a far greater level of inhumane treatment than Palestinian actions, Israel are also the oppressors in this conflict; thus Israel will (rightly) get far more negative attention

    3: "If you don't immediately condemn Israel, anti-Israeli's label you an apologist/scumbag"
    Lazy straw man argument, which in itself ironically/hypocritically labels all anti-Israeli (for lack of a better term) posters, as irrational and dishonest, and is a very thinly veiled way of trying to discredit their arguments through attacking credibility.

    4: "This was the action of individuals, the individuals were convicted, Israel should not be critcised, it is exploitative to do so, stick to the topic at hand etc."
    While it is good the Israeli courts are prosecuting the individuals in this case, Israel is open to a huge amount of criticism on a very wide range of things involving the conflict with Palestine; using this discussion to criticise/condemn Israel, the IDF etc. on their actions is perfectly within the subject of this topic.
    To label criticism of Israel from these topics as exploitative, is to slur the posters criticizing Israel, and try to lazily dismiss their arguments without acknowledging/engaging them.
    SugarHigh wrote: »
    To be fair there really shouldn't be any need to defend Israel on this because it's not like it's an official policy to use kids as shields. The people who did this were convicted by an Israeli court so it's clear most Israeli's do not find this exceptable.

    If someone in the Irish Defense Forces was to go mad and start killing kids should the whole of Ireland have to defend it self?

    I'm not an Israeli supporter by the way it's just that in this specific case I don't see how it's the state of Israel that's at fault because of the actions by 2 rogue soldiers.
    Well, the added issue with this, that also makes it more newsworthy, is that it also reflects the views/attitudes of many Israeli/IDF soldiers towards Palestinians; that their view towards Palestinians views them on such a sub-human level, that some of them are willing to use Palestinian children as human shields.

    This kind of semi-indoctrinated disregard/dehumanization of Palestinians is extremely common among the IDF (not saying it encompasses most of the IDF or anything, not at all, just that it's common), and this story is important in showing that, and how far it can go.


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    #30
    Gummy Panda
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,919 ✭✭✭✭Gummy Panda


    Someone pm this story to that girl from cork who was parroting IDF propaganda a few months ago.


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    #31
    Einhard
    Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    Gummy Panda wrote: »
    Someone pm this story to that girl from cork who was parroting IDF propaganda a few months ago.

    And while we're at it, let's send a link to every member of the Irish Armed Forces of that sailor convicted during the summer of providing drug lords with the co-ordinates of naval patrol vessels. I mean, if the two Israeli soldiers are representative of the institution they served, then surely all Irish soldiers are in league with drug dealers? By your logic...


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