Why can't we just tell FF to step down? is it not our 1st constitutional right?

crazyderk · 30-09-2010 10:55AM #1

THE NATION

Article 1
The Irish nation hereby affirms its inalienable, indefeasible, and sovereign right to choose its own form of Government, to determine its relations with other nations, and to develop its life, political, economic and cultural, in accordance with its own genius and traditions.

http://www.constitution.org/cons/ireland/constitution_ireland-en.htm

Our first right as citizens of Ireland is to pick our government, Why do we have to wait till they decide its game over and dissolve the Dail?

Yes we voted them in and there would be a natural expiry date on that but if they're doing a ****ty a job and polls see their popularity slipping why is there not a big red magical button (metaphor of course) that says we want to vote for a new government because its OUR choice not yours!

hallelujajordan · 30-09-2010 11:56AM

crazyderk wrote: »

THE NATION

Article 1
The Irish nation hereby affirms its inalienable, indefeasible, and sovereign right to choose its own form of Government, to determine its relations with other nations, and to develop its life, political, economic and cultural, in accordance with its own genius and traditions.

http://www.constitution.org/cons/ireland/constitution_ireland-en.htm

Our first right as citizens of Ireland is to pick our government, Why do we have to wait till they decide its game over and dissolve the Dail?

Yes we voted them in and there would be a natural expiry date on that but if they're doing a ****ty a job and polls see their popularity slipping why is there not a big red magical button (metaphor of course) that says we want to vote for a new government because its OUR choice not yours!

You might want to read the rest of the constitution . . We exercise our right to pick our government in a special event thats held, usually every 5 years but sometimes more often. We who believe in democracy call this special event a GENERAL ELECTION . .

Its a fascinating concept and you will learn much more about it if you follow the link you posted above. .

seamus · 30-09-2010 12:04PM

crazyderk wrote: »

Yes we voted them in and there would be a natural expiry date on that but if they're doing a ****ty a job and polls see their popularity slipping why is there not a big red magical button (metaphor of course) that says we want to vote for a new government because its OUR choice not yours!

And how would one push this big magical red button? Maybe a referendum every year? Well, that would be costly and people would become jaded by it and not bother voting.
Opinion polls are worthless for governmental purposes and cannot be relied upon as a method of democratic control.

If only there were a way to ask the population on a regular basis, who they want to represent them and then to install those people into the national parliament.

This is the system of government that we have. I didn't vote for either party who are now in power, but I stronly believe in the democratic principle and I accept that we are stuck with them for another two years because in 2007 a majority of my countrymen decided that they would be the most appropriate representatives for the next five years.
It's not really relevant that you've changed your mind now. Article 1 allows us to change our form of government - so next time vote for a party who want to change the system so that elections are held yearly. Until then you're stuck with the system we have now.

My only hope to arise out of this whole debacle is that people might actually start thinking about the power of their vote instead of voting for the person that Mammy tells them to vote for.

onlyrocknroll · 30-09-2010 12:13PM

I suppose such a magic red button exists in the form of mass protest, one big enough to force the government's hand into holding an election.

Permabear · 30-09-2010 12:16PM

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BaZmO* · 30-09-2010 12:25PM

crazyderk wrote: »

THE NATION

Article 1
The Irish nation hereby affirms its inalienable, indefeasible, and sovereign right to choose its own form of Government, to determine its relations with other nations, and to develop its life, political, economic and cultural, in accordance with its own genius and traditions.

http://www.constitution.org/cons/ireland/constitution_ireland-en.htm

By referring to that one Article alone, you're essentially proposing the typical political solution to a political problem, i.e. picking the bits that support your argument while blatantly ignoring the rest.

Good try. D+ Must try harder

FreudianSlippers · 30-09-2010 12:32PM

Technically our first "right" is under Art 40.1: Equality before the law

Drumpot · 30-09-2010 12:34PM

Why not have an "X-Factor" kind of vote every year or 6 months (depending on how exciting it is). .

Right now Gilemore is winning the popularity contest. . As far as I can see the people of Ireland are only interested in style , so why not employ Simon Cowel and Co to jazz it up a little . .

Gilemore can be the crowd favourate. Little substance to them, you know that they are full of hotair, but you just root for them for saying everything that pushes your button.

Kenny can be the one who you just dont want to see do well, no matter how good or bad they are!

Cowen can be the baddy. The one who you dont trust and who annoys you with everything they do (yet they always progress to the next round, much to your disgust) . .

Sinn Fein can be the one who you could never bring yourself to vote for no matter how good.

Laminations · 30-09-2010 12:43PM

donegalfella wrote: »

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Horse cock, as usual. If I offered you a cake and you ate it only to later discover that it was poisonous, you'd be rightly pissed. While a little more interest by the general public may now be shown in politics what you are suggesting is that the nation should pull economic and political theory degrees from their asses and question every government policy and analyse every economic decision. While that may be ideal, it's not realistic, not that that'd bother a libertarian like yourself. The people need to trust their government. FF were preaching that the party would continue. This was populist lies. People are now losing trust in government and faith in politicians. Your suggested move towards a more cynical public would further cement that lack of trust in our institutions. What we need is accountability. We need government to realise that when they abuse the trust placed in them by the electorate that there will be consequences for them, banning from political life, criminal proceedings and removal of pensions if need be. If a people cant trust it's government then democracy has failed. People should by all means be more aware when it comes to politics but I don't blame people who were duped by FF prior to 2007, FF were lying to them - I blame FF. We need FF to now be held accountable so any future governments know the price for putting populism and self preservation ahead of their job to govern wisely and ensure the continuance of this countries sovereign freedoms

conorhal · 30-09-2010 12:45PM

Drumpot wrote: »

Why not have an "X-Factor" kind of vote every year or 6 months (depending on how exciting it is). .

Right now Gilemore is winning the popularity contest. . As far as I can see the people of Ireland are only interested in style , so why not employ Simon Cowel and Co to jazz it up a little . .

Gilemore can be the crowd favourate. Little substance to them, you know that they are full of hotair, but you just root for them for saying everything that pushes your button.

Kenny can be the one who you just dont want to see do well, no matter how good or bad they are!

Cowen can be the baddy. The one who you dont trust and who annoys you with everything they do (yet they always progress to the next round, much to your disgust) . .

Sinn Fein can be the one who you could never bring yourself to vote for no matter how good.

You know what, I'd actually go for that, a Politics Factor that would elect a national government, not on the basis of party afilliation but rather individual elected politicians running for specific government posts.

You could have the likes of Shane Ross, Brian Lenihan, Joan Burton and Diarmaid Gavin competing for the finance portfolio.
They could be judged by a journo, a political science lecturer an economist and Simon Cowell to judge their over all 'charisma and communications ability'.

Drumpot · 30-09-2010 12:56PM

Laminations wrote: »

Horse cock, as usual. If I offered you a cake and you ate it only to later discover that it was poisonous, you'd be rightly pissed. While a little more interest by the general public may now be shown in politics what you are suggesting is that the nation should pull economic and political theory degrees from their asses and question every government policy and analyse every economic decision. While that may be ideal, it's not realistic, not that that'd bother a libertarian like yourself. The people need to trust their government. FF were preaching that the party would continue. This was populist lies. People are now losing trust in government and faith in politicians. Your suggested move towards a more cynical public would further cement that lack of trust in our institutions. What we need is accountability. We need government to realise that when they abuse the trust placed in them by the electorate that there will be consequences for them, banning from political life, criminal proceedings and removal of pensions if need be. If a people cant trust it's government then democracy has failed. People should by all means be more aware when it comes to politics but I don't blame people who were duped by FF prior to 2007, FF were lying to them - I blame FF. We need FF to now be held accountable so any future governments know the price for putting populism and self preservation ahead of their job to govern wisely and ensure the continuance of this countries sovereign freedoms

Who has the power to demand and push through accountability ? Ah yes, the people . . The concept of the term "political will" is usually backed up by the concept of the public demanding that something be done.

I was watching the Veronica Guerin movie last night and what strikes me is that people in this country will keep their heads in the sand until something drastic happens. Only then will they look for a proper response from their government.

Saying "the government lied to us" is simply a cop out. Gilemore is telling people exactly what they want to hear and look at his popularity. . Technically I suppose he could argue that hes not lieing, just not being completely up front about the challenges facing the country (not clarifying stance on Croke park agreement etc). People are burying their heads in the sand and blaming somebody else when it all goes tits up . .

People dont trust politicians in this country because none of them have the moral leadership to come out and say the truth that isnt popular with voters. In truth, the recent poles have suggested that Irish people do want to be lied to .

BaZmO* · 30-09-2010 01:00PM

Drumpot wrote: »

I was watching the Veronica Guerin movie last night and what strikes me is that people in this country will keep their heads in the sand until something drastic happens. Only then will they look for a proper response from their government.

But that was more to do with the press putting pressure on the government because it was one of their own that was killed. There was no way they would've let the government off the hook for that one.

Drumpot · 30-09-2010 01:02PM

BaZmO* wrote: »

But that was more to do with the press putting pressure on the government because it was one of their own that was killed. There was no way they would've let the government off the hook for that one.

True, but it shows if there is enough will of the people laws will be changed for the greater good . . People just dont care enough about politics or the state of this country to protest about anything other then something that specifically benefits themselves immediatley.

Similar to the guilford four, Nelson Mandela etc . . Sometimes the people will not rise up, see sense or demand justice unless something drastic happens or they have some sort of icon to relate to. Its a burden to progression that we need big incidents to get the people off their asses ! !

As much as Gerry Ryan's death was a tragedy for his family, the public response to it showed that people are just media zombies that struggle with having their own beliefs, independant opinions and are just conformist to a fault. Its a greater cancer througout society and is why we dont get many or any revolutionary leaders with radical plans to improve things . .

bonkey · 30-09-2010 01:32PM

Laminations wrote: »

If I offered you a cake and you ate it only to later discover that it was poisonous, you'd be rightly pissed.

There's a distinction between being rightly pissed and being legally entitled to force an outcome that you desire as a result of being pissed.

what you are suggesting is that the nation should pull economic and political theory degrees from their asses and question every government policy and analyse every economic decision.

Where did he suggest any such thing? He pointed out a drawback inherent in popular democracy particularly when coupled with a very short term of governance. He didn't propose an alternative at all....and particularly not the one you are suggesting here.

While that may be ideal, it's not realistic, not that that'd bother a libertarian like yourself.

You've constructed a strawman, and then knocked it down in order to get a dig in at a political philosophy.

A good populist move. Highly fitting to the discussion at hand.

If a people cant trust it's government then democracy has failed.

On one hand, you argue that its unreasonable to expect people to be able to hold the knowledge that the require in order to be able to form a knowledgeable decision.

On the other hand, you say that its a failure of the system if they can't trust that they will make the right decision based on the very lack of knowledge you argue they cannot be expected to "fix".

In essence, your position argues that the system will fail if people can't trust their uninformed decisions. By such a standard, the system cannot succeed.

Democracy is not without its faults. The ability of the populace to collectively make stupid decisions is, perhaps, one of its greatest.

Permabear · 30-09-2010 02:11PM

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Shea O'Meara · 30-09-2010 09:43PM

donegalfella wrote: »

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I've seen this used a lot. Can you provide quotes or a link please?

donegalfella wrote: »

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Again, can you show where Gilmore says eveything is okay as is? A link or quote is fine. Please be sure not to use a Bertie or FFail party quote from a few years back by mistake. Thanks again.

Why can't we just tell FF to step down? is it not our 1st constitutional right?

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