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Religion is "child abuse" ??

24567…27

Comments

  • #32
    Shenshen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,453 ✭✭✭Shenshen


    I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'
    MagicMarker wrote: »
    If I truly believed that, then the cruel part would be having children in the first place.

    There IS that, yes.
    Some people, thinking this thought through to the end, ended up killing their children to assure them a place in heaven by dying while still innocent....


  • #33
    Dan133269
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,229 ✭✭✭Dan133269


    Cú Giobach wrote: »
    This is a subject I would love to debate with R. Dawkins.
    He claims that parents indoctrinating their children with their religion is "child abuse", citing that it makes it more difficult for them to form a proper and realistic perspective of reality.
    Now, my point is, that not bringing up a child in your own faith would actually be tantamount to child abuse.
    If someone believes that, praying to and giving homage to a deity is rewarded with "everlasting life" and not doing so is punished with "damnation", then withholding the positive option from your child would be unforgivable and cruel.
    Parents want the best for their kids and taking the chance of "damming them to hell" in the event of premature death would be inexcusable.

    You are quite right, taking the chance of damning them to hell would be inexcusable. The logical extension of this, is of course that a parent should kill their child as soon as they are born before they have a chance to commit any sin(s) and so they will go straight to heaven, as if you allow them live their life there is the risk they will sin and go to hell. If you value the eternal well-being of your child(ren) over your own, you shoud therefore kill them as soon as they are out of the womb.


  • #34
    Improbable
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,576 ✭✭✭Improbable


    I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'
    Dan133269 wrote: »
    You are quite right, taking the chance of damning them to hell would be inexcusable. The logical extension of this, is of course that a parent should kill their child as soon as they are born before they have a chance to commit any sin(s) and so they will go straight to heaven, as if you allow them live their life there is the risk they will sin and go to hell. If you value the eternal well-being of your child(ren) over your own, you shoud therefore kill them as soon as they are out of the womb.

    Don't catholics believe in original sin and that unbaptised children go to hell?


  • #35
    Ghost Buster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭Ghost Buster


    Cú Giobach wrote: »
    That is your position, but what would you think if you were, say a christian?



    Personal belief has everything to do with the OP.
    To someone who "believes", their religion is the "right" one.
    I wouldnt have to think. Thats the great thing about religion, you have nice men in frocks to do the akward thinking for you.


  • #36
    strobe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    Cú Giobach wrote: »
    To put the question another way.
    If you truly believed that by not giving your child your religion, you would be damming it to hell, Could you do it??

    If they truly believed in their god then wouldn't he grant their children with one of these magical "personal revelations of God" I keep hearing so much about? Why would an omnipotent, omniscient being need people to convince their children of his existence while they are children. I'm sure he can handle that himself. He's been doing it since the start of time after all.

    As for the OP, no I wouldn't use the term child abuse. That's a very heavy phrase to be throwing around frivolously.


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  • #37
    lynski
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,585 ✭✭✭lynski


    Improbable wrote: »
    Don't catholics believe in original sin and that unbaptised children go to hell?

    limbo actually and no not anymore. they published some ****e there a while ago about it all being a mistake http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0506867.htm
    more to the point they want to spread their word in 3rd world counties and they have higher infant mortality rates then in western nations.
    I read some diary entries of a woman in the 1910s in Ireland who had lost a baby at birth and the torment she was in because her baby was in limbo was heartbreaking.
    I believe it is child abuse to keep your child uneducated about anything in the world, and if that means that you dont allow them to explore the belief systems f any and all religions then you are abusing them. If you keep them from exploring evolution, then you are abusing them, if you keep them from exploring other cultures, then you are abusing them.
    as broad an education in life should be the goal for all parents, not if a 5 yr old believes enough to go to heaven.

    What you are basically asking op, is if a parent wants a god who would damn a five yr old cancer victim because they did not adhere to the beliefs of their religion closely enough? hell no! if your god is like that then i want no part of it and no parent should.
    Like the old saying goes: your god your hell so you go there.


  • #38
    Cú Giobach
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,772 ✭✭✭Cú Giobach


    I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'
    lynski wrote: »
    What you are basically asking op, is if a parent wants a god who would damn a five yr old cancer victim because they did not adhere to the beliefs of their religion closely enough? hell no! if your god is like that then i want no part of it and no parent should.
    Like the old saying goes: your god your hell so you go there.

    I am a total atheist, and also very anti-theistic in my views.

    Unfortunately millions and millions of people do have a belief in just this kind of god, and consequently indoctrinate their kids for fear of reprisals.

    Just because I can understand something doesn't mean I agree with it.


  • #39
    iguana
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,917 ✭✭✭✭iguana


    I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'
    Cú Giobach wrote: »
    Not passing on the religious aspects would result (in their opinion) in damnation for eternity.

    A lot of religions have moved past that belief system. Most christians believe unbaptised children can still go to heaven because while humans are bound by the sacraments, God is not and he loves people, especially children and will want them to go to heaven if they were not baptised due to someone else's choice.

    Other religions like Mormonism can baptise anyone after their death so if someone dies unbaptised they can baptise them afterward. In fact they don't baptise until after the age of eight (or the mentally challenged) as they believe it is an abomination to baptise someone who can't understand and choose the faith. And that God can use his own sense to see this.

    The Jewish Mikveh is for adults. The Hindu Ayushkarma is not necessary for reincarnation. And in Islam many believe that to be a condemned to hell Kafir (unbeliever) you must make a conscious rejection of the truth which doesn't apply to children who have not been given the opportunity to be Muslim.

    So in fact for the majority of religious believers there is no need at all to indoctrinate your children into a religion as very few people now believe in a god so malevolent that he would punish children for not following that faith.


  • #40
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,363 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    Cú Giobach wrote: »
    This is a subject I would love to debate with R. Dawkins.
    He claims that parents indoctrinating their children with their religion is "child abuse"

    Not for the first time I must correct the interpretation of what Dawkins has said here. I would also join you in disagreeing with him if this was what he said.

    However on further reading and listening I realised that it is not so and the above is a mistaken misrepresentation.

    What dawkins is calling "Child Abuse" is labeling the child with your religion, not teaching them your religion.

    In other words he is trying to show it is wrong to tell a child "YOU are a catholic" when in fact that child is too young to know what it is.

    The difference may be subtle but it is massively important and I have zero disagreement with it.

    By all means teach your child all about what it means to you to be a Catholic. Just do not go around telling the child that that is what he or she is.

    However I would disagree with Dawkins on the term "abuse". The failure to see your own child as an unformed individual, but as some cloned extension of yourself is NOT abuse.... it is a massive failure in parenting.


  • #41
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 52,209 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    iguana wrote: »
    So in fact for the majority of religious believers there is no need at all to indoctrinate your children into a religion as very few people now believe in a god so malevolent that he would punish children for not following that faith.
    that's barely part of the story of why people bring their kids up in the same religion though. people teach their kids what they themselves believe. if you believe you should be nice to others, you teach your kids that too. if you believe it's safe to stop, look and listen before crossing a road, you teach your kids that too. if you believe jesus died for you, you teach your kids that too.

    regarding the 'it's bad that parents do not expose their children to other religious opinions'; how many parents do that with other beliefs they hold, such as the 'be nice to others' one?


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  • #42
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,583 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Great post, iguana. :)
    iguana wrote: »
    So in fact for the majority of religious believers there is no need at all to indoctrinate your children into a religion as very few people now believe in a god so malevolent that he would punish children for not following that faith.
    The only thing I'd say is that indoctrination isn't just the equivalent ritual to baptism, but the constant feeding of a single world-view onto a child's mind. So while I commend the idea of not officially having them partake in a ceremony until they are older, I suspect the children are just as brain-washed in their respective faiths regardless.


  • #43
    AudreyHepburn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,673 ✭✭✭AudreyHepburn


    I'm religious and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'
    Speaking as some-one who was brought up in a Catholic home, I can honestly that I haven’t been affected negatively in any way by my upbringing. I am quite happy and well adjusted and in no way indoctrinated.

    I was never thought anything like what people here seem to believe is taught. My parents certainly never said that I would burn in hell if I were naughty or any of the other silly things being mentioned here.

    I was simply taught, as I’d wager the vast majority of those I know would have been that God loves us all equally no matter who we are or what we do and that he is always there to guide and protect us.

    I really don’t see the problem with teaching children those kinds of lesson.

    I think that suggesting that if you are a parent with religion and you decide to raise your children in that faith you are a kin to those who beat/neglect/sexually abuse their children is rather irrational and actually quite demeaning to good religious parents, like mine.

    It also imo demonstrates a lack of understanding of what the Catholic faith is really about i.e. loving thy neighbour as thy self.

    I also think that raising your children in a strictly atheist way where you teach them all religion is wrong and unhealthy is not a good thing either. You don’t have to teach them to believe but you do need to teach them to respect those that do.


  • #44
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'
    Is the catholic faith not also about banning gay people from having sexual relations and getting hitched? Refusing to let women play a prominent role in their church and teaching that condoms cause AIDS...don't know what you class as lousy parenting but if a parent actually follows the churches lead and practices the faith and edict faithfully...


  • #45
    AudreyHepburn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,673 ✭✭✭AudreyHepburn


    I'm religious and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'
    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    Is the catholic faith not also about banning gay people from having sexual relations and getting hitched? Refusing to let women play a prominent role in their church and teaching that condoms cause AIDS...don't know what you class as lousy parenting but if a parent actually follows the churches lead and practices the faith and edict faithfully...

    What I'm saying that's not what the vast majority of parents and teachers teach nowadays, whether you accept it or not.

    No-one I know was ever thought anything like the above nor was I.

    My Mother only taught me acceptence and respect for everyone and that we are all loved equally.

    I remember several times where I really didn't want to go to mass and she said (ad libbing here) don't worry, God won't mind if you miss a day!

    She was certainly not in any way abusing me and I resent the suggestion that she was by teaching me her faith.


  • #46
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'
    I don't think the wishy-washy closer to protestantism catholicism that appears to be all the rage at the moment actually changes what the religion some people align themselves with actually teaches, that some choose to water it down and ignore the more abhorrent dogma doesn't change what the religion is. I'm assuming when generic phrases are being thrown around, posters aren't taking about you and your specific upbringing anyway, I assume they are talking generally and more specifically referring to the many people who do suffer at the hands/pious mouths of religious parents?


  • #47
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,363 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    I was never thought anything like what people here seem to believe is taught.
    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    What I'm saying that's not what the vast majority of parents and teachers teach nowadays, whether you accept it or not.

    I am perfectly willing to accept the anecdote in your first post here, I have no reason to doubt it and quite happy to hear it I am too, however I am not sure how you extrapolate that to being an authority on what the "vast majority" of parents are or are not doing.

    Do you have any figures or data on studies conducted into what the "vast majority" of parents in Ireland are teaching their children in the privacy of their own homes, or are you as I fear merely extrapolating from personal anecdote?


  • #48
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Cú Giobach wrote: »
    This is a subject I would love to debate with R. Dawkins.
    He claims that parents indoctrinating their children with their religion is "child abuse", citing that it makes it more difficult for them to form a proper and realistic perspective of reality.

    Actually what he said was teaching religious doctrine like hell to a child can be tantamount to child abuse. He bases this on testimony from people raised in religious families who suffered mental trauma when taught the idea of hell by their parents.
    Cú Giobach wrote: »
    Now, my point is, that not bringing up a child in your own faith would actually be tantamount to child abuse.
    If someone believes that, praying to and giving homage to a deity is rewarded with "everlasting life" and not doing so is punished with "damnation", then withholding the positive option from your child would be unforgivable and cruel.

    But they don't go to hell as children, and a religion like Christianity maintains that you have to freely choose salvation so indoctrinating your children to believe it is true would seem some what counter productive.


  • #49
    AudreyHepburn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,673 ✭✭✭AudreyHepburn


    I'm religious and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'
    nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »
    I am perfectly willing to accept the anecdote in your first post here, I have no reason to doubt it and quite happy to hear it I am too, however I am not sure how you extrapolate that to being an authority on what the "vast majority" of parents are or are not doing.

    Do you have any figures or data on studies conducted into what the "vast majority" of parents in Ireland are teaching their children in the privacy of their own homes, or are you as I fear merely extrapolating from personal anecdote?

    Well yes I am speaking from my own experience and those of the people I have known throughout my life.

    I don't see they aren't relevent?

    I'd bet if the athiests on here used their experiences you wouldn't be on your high horse about it, tbh:rolleyes:


  • #50
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    Speaking as some-one who was brought up in a Catholic home ... and in no way indoctrinated.

    Are you a Catholic?


  • #51
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,363 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    I'd bet if the athiests on here used their experiences you wouldn't be on your high horse about it, tbh:rolleyes:

    On another thread just now you pointed out to someone the folly of presuming to know things about people you do not know.

    Try taking your own advice. In fact here it is in case you want to read it again:
    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    Please don't presume anything about me, it only makes you look petty and cheapens your argument.

    Quite the contrary is true about me and you are almost 100% wrong in your assumption above.

    Extrapolating generalisations from personal anecdote is an error regardless of whether it is performed by a theist or not and I point it out whenever I see it. So get off your own "high horse" as you decide to put it and reply to only the things I have done and said, and not things you imagine I would or would not do or say.


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  • #52
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,031 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    Any form of bad parenting is an abuse of a child to some extent but the problem is the choice of words - as "child abuse" conjours up images of a very intense, disguisting act.

    Mr. Dawkins would have better off calling it bad parenting. If you read his books its really the labelling and indoctrination he is against. He extends this to include atheists. Atheist parents shouldn't label their kids as atheists or force them down that path. So at least he is being consistent. It's really about getting people to think for themselves rather than brain washing them into having the same opinions as their parents.


  • #53
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,583 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Wicknight wrote: »
    Are you a Catholic?
    For the love of Ganesha, don't go there again... :pac:


  • #54
    AudreyHepburn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,673 ✭✭✭AudreyHepburn


    I'm religious and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'
    Wicknight wrote: »
    Are you a Catholic?

    I'm not starting that again.


  • #55
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,031 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    AudreyHepburn wrote: »

    I remember several times where I really didn't want to go to mass and she said (ad libbing here) don't worry, God won't mind if you miss a day!
    .
    Well then she's not teaching you catholicism. She's teaching you contradictions.

    With the greatest of respect, if you try to look at things logically you can't just ignore contradictions. Catholics contradict themselves ad nausiem. There are ok with this. How many of them seriously believe the Pope has magic powers? Even though this is a central tennet of the catholic faith.

    Do you accept that other people find it hard contradicting themselves? They are uncomfortable with it?


  • #56
    iguana
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,917 ✭✭✭✭iguana


    I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'
    Dades wrote: »
    Great post, iguana. :)
    The only thing I'd say is that indoctrination isn't just the equivalent ritual to baptism, but the constant feeding of a single world-view onto a child's mind. So while I commend the idea of not officially having them partake in a ceremony until they are older, I suspect the children are just as brain-washed in their respective faiths regardless.

    Absolutely but in the context of the question in the OP very few religions now condemn dead children to hell for not being baptised therefore it isn't any type of abuse to not indoctrinate your children.

    My upbringing seems a little weird in retrospect, though is probably the norm now. My dad is anti-religious, and my mother is probably agnostic but still went through the motions of Catholicism. My brothers and I were all baptised and my mother took us to mass but when we questioned it, told us it was partially to keep my grandparents happy and partially for the sake of schooling. (As we got older war regularly broke out about why we had to go to mass while my father didn't). Both my parents told us that the bible and it's stories are just stories that people invented in order to explain what they couldn't understand.

    On the other hand we went to Catholic schools as there was literally no other choice of schooling at all and religion was taught in absolute terms. It's way too much to expect a child to know that on the one hand your teacher is there to teach you things that are real, math, literacy, history, etc and a sprinkling of nonsense, religion, and be able to differentiate between them. So I did believe in religion for a while, as taught by schools, especially as teachers tended to give a clear religious message while I got mixed messages from my parents. "Luckily" in 2nd class I had a terrible teacher who was very often wrong about things, really stupidly wrong, (Baby chickens are not just yellow damnit! My dad raised them and they came in at least three colours. The black and brown chicks I drew in my spring picture were accurate.:mad:) so I learned that teachers can talk a lot of crap at an early age.

    I think that the way my parents did it was too confusing and I'd probably rate it as the worst aspect of their parenting (which isn't a big complaint in the greater scheme of things). Taking your children through the motions of a religion one of you doesn't particularly believe in and the other openly loathes, while sending them to a school where it is taught as fact, messes with their heads. I get that my parents were young and had been completely indoctrinated as children so were still finding their own religious feet and that in 1970s and 80s Ireland not going through those motions was unthinkable to them. But there is no excuse for so many people following a similar path today. I certainly wouldn't categorise it as abuse or cruelty but it is needlessly confusing at a time when children really need firm guidance.


  • #57
    Shenshen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,453 ✭✭✭Shenshen


    I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'
    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    What I'm saying that's not what the vast majority of parents and teachers teach nowadays, whether you accept it or not.

    No-one I know was ever thought anything like the above nor was I.

    My Mother only taught me acceptence and respect for everyone and that we are all loved equally.

    I remember several times where I really didn't want to go to mass and she said (ad libbing here) don't worry, God won't mind if you miss a day!

    She was certainly not in any way abusing me and I resent the suggestion that she was by teaching me her faith.

    Believe me, I'm glad both for you and your mother.
    However, strictly speaking, that is not a Catholic upbringing. In fact, your mother seems to have done what people all through this thread suggested, and taught her faith non-exlusivley, and non-restrictive.

    If you read the thread, you'll find that this is NOT what we were talking about.
    The issue we discussed was that if parents did believe that their children would go to hell if they were ever taught anything positive about any other faith, or got access to information contradicting the faith, should they be allowed to restrict their children in that form?

    From what you're saying, I suppose you agree that they shouldn't be allowed...


  • #58
    pH
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,188 ✭✭✭pH


    I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'
    Regardless of what Dawkins may or may not have said, if you take a step back, remove your religious blinkers, and look critically at what goes on with children, I feel that "abuse" is a reasonable term (and yes the words "child abuse" should probably solely be used as a shorthand for "child sexual abuse" but others with agendas have jumped on this bandwagon long before Dawkins)

    - Segregation of children by religion at school.

    - Forcing them to learn repetitive chants - some religions are much worse than others in these respects - the Buddhist practice of taking 8 year old children into monasteries to start a lifelong process of indoctrination is frankly disgusting.

    - "Hell" - scaring kids with threats

    - Forcing them through various "rites", ceremonies and mutilations.

    etc.


  • #59
    sonicthebadger*
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 446 ✭✭sonicthebadger*


    I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'
    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    I also think that raising your children in a strictly atheist way where you teach them all religion is wrong and unhealthy is not a good thing either. You don’t have to teach them to believe but you do need to teach them to respect those that do.

    I have to take issue with this point, I am quite capable of deeply respecting a person while tearing their beliefs to bits. I do it frequently with theistic friends and they know that the fact that I do not share their belief in fairy tales does not impact on my feelings for them.

    It is a nasty tactic to insist that the belief and the human being are one and the same when it comes to respect.


  • #60
    AudreyHepburn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,673 ✭✭✭AudreyHepburn


    I'm religious and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'
    sonicthebadger* wrote: »
    I have to take issue with this point, I am quite capable of deeply respecting a person while tearing their beliefs to bits. I do it frequently with theistic friends and they know that the fact that I do not share their belief in fairy tales does not impact on my feelings for them.

    It is a nasty tactic to insist that the belief and the human being are one and the same when it comes to respect.

    If you respected the person you wouldn't be so harsh as to tear their ideas to bits. You'd question them, discuss with them, debate with them not rip into them.


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  • #61
    Shenshen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,453 ✭✭✭Shenshen


    I'm atheist/agnostic and DON'T believe that any religious dogmas constitute 'child abuse'
    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    If you respected the person you wouldn't be so harsh as to tear their ideas to bits. You'd question them, discuss with them, debate with them not rip into them.

    If the idea doesn't deserve respect, why respect it?


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