Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Just default

13»

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 802 ✭✭✭Scarab80


    Only if the guaranteed instution is in fact insolvent and believed to be insolvent. However, if it is believed to be solvent but experiencing liquidity problems due to "international factors" then such a guarantee would make sense.

    Ok think how this would work. You guarantee a bank with an opt out for insolvency. Creditors want to withdraw their money but there is not the liquidity there due to international factors.

    Therefore the state pays the money to the creditors under the guarantee.

    A few months later it turns out that the bank is insolvent, what do you do? Go to all of the depositers who have been repaid their money to and ask for it back?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 802 ✭✭✭Scarab80


    OisinT wrote: »
    That's the legislation that provides that institutions such as NAMA can be created.
    Liam Byrne keeps saying that there were no provisions in the "contract" that allowed an "out" in even of lies.
    I'm just wondering what contract he's talking about.

    That's the legislation for the guarantee provided in Sept 2008.

    This is the contract Liam is talking about.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,567 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    Scarab80 wrote: »
    Non NAMA loans in Anglo stand at 29.5bn at 30 June 2010.

    This is made up of loans with a nominal value of 37bn and a bad debt provision of 7.5bn.

    The creditors remain liable for the 37bn amount until all legal proceedings have been completed against them. Once that is done the provision is reduced by the unrecovered amount.

    Since 2008 200m has been actually written off in bad debts.

    Anglo themselves say 38.4bn with 6.5bn provision - http://www.angloirishbank.com/Media-Centre/Press_Releases/Interim_Results_2010_Press_Release.pdf

    39 was used as a round up to give them the best possible scenario.

    The provision for bad debts is taken as a loss now, and if more than the expected amount is recovered then it is a bad debt recovered. Once the loss has been taken on the provision the debt (or part of the debt) is as good as written off, and any recovered funds are later added in as a profit.

    So to say that 200m has been actually written off is misleading to say the least.

    This is in any event just the niceties of accounting. You can take it as read that there have been a lot more than 200m already written off:

    http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/quinn-loans-included-in-shock-figures-2319487.html


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    Scarab80 wrote: »
    That's the legislation for the guarantee provided in Sept 2008.

    This is the contract Liam is talking about.
    OK well there is a huge difference in operation of contracts and legislation.

    I'm wondering also, specifically, what separation of powers issues we have here?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,124 ✭✭✭Amhran Nua


    To boil things down a bit the main reason we can't allow the bondholders to take the hit is because the Irish government spends too much. This can be dealt with in two ways:

    1. Increase tax take - this can be achieved by creating employment and stimulating enterprise, cutting down the numbers on welfare while simultaneously increasing the numbers paying taxes.
    2. Deeper austerity measures -if expenditure was at even 2004 levels, we would be breaking even. Its not that hard to get expenditure down to that region again.

    Once we aren't counting on loans to prevent the country from collapsing, we can roll back the guarantee on a provisional basis, with an immediate emphasis on bank debt that was not originally sourced from the Irish state. Without cancelling it completely, we can reduce the majority of the burden and focus on the future of the nation again, not paying off the gambling debts of speculators.

    So technically yes, we can default with few adverse effects, on those debts which weren't ours to begin with, which is something that makes the Irish situation unique as opposed to most other defaulting nations, as long as we have our house in order first.


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,819 ✭✭✭dan_d


    Yes but is defaulting the same as closing a bank, the way they did in the US?

    Nobody here seems to be able to answer me that.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,124 ✭✭✭Amhran Nua


    dan_d wrote: »
    Yes but is defaulting the same as closing a bank, the way they did in the US?
    Not neccessarily, it might be difficult for the banks to secure loans on the international markets and hence it might be difficult for them to continue operations, but since many banks are experiencing austerity globally, they could be maintained in some form. One perspective might be that the level of mismanagement in these banks over the last decade should by rights end in their closure. Naturally we need to protect the deposits of Irish citizens and companies in every eventuality, but Irish banks still hold a great many assets in the form of outstanding performing mortgages, so that shouldn't be a huge issue.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    OisinT wrote: »
    There are multiple contractual obligations that may effect this on both sides.

    It doesn't matter if that caveat is included anyway - if the government was induced into contract through falsehood there is always legal recourse.

    Fair enough.

    So nearly two years on from the exposing of that falsehood the government have taken no legal recourse.

    Interesting.


Advertisement