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What is Alternative Medicine?

13»

Comments

  • #62
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,874 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    the watchman wrote: »
    Hi,
    I can't seem to find appropriate thread to post so perhaps mods might re-post elswhere, thanks in advance.

    I was advised recently by doctors to go on Aspirin and statin drugs for a mild case of PAD. I decided to research any alternative remedies and came across the following site:

    www.altmedangel.com

    I found the alternatives to aspirin and statin mentioned on the site most interesting. Perhaps the most interesting aspect is that the site is 'not for profit' and was created by a man who had a lifetime of illness which was never successfully dealt with untill recently. If you visit the site click on 'about the author'. Only 3/4 paragraphs or so but quite amazing.

    Hope this may be of interest to others.

    Thanks for reading.

    Saw the name Gary Null and that was that really....

    Trust me watchman, you'll get better medical advice on a men's room wall...


  • #63
    N8
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 458 ✭✭N8


    rbrbrb wrote: »
    Tell you what N8, if you ever lose a limb I'll give you the number of a good homeopath.

    Did it really take 4 weeks for you to come up with this witty retort?





    wow


  • #64
    N8
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 458 ✭✭N8


    lonestargirl wrote: »
    You keep making this statement. Can you give me 10 examples of everyday medical practices that are not evidence based?

    alot of cardiac surgery isn't evidence based, the swine flu vaccine has no evidence of either efficacy or safety, hip tests on babies, alot of medications are without the necessary evidence and corticosteroids no one knows how they truly work.

    Goal orientated care by its very defintion is non evidence based.

    lonestargirl wrote: »
    In my opinion:

    Conventional Medicine = evidence based
    Alternative medicine = not evidence based, used instead of conventional medicine
    Complementary medicine = treatments that are not central to the patient's care but which complement and add to it (e.g. yoga, tai chi, diet in certain cases, exercise). It is used in addition to conventional medicine.

    What about the evidence for chiropractic which is alternative to medicine?

    Remember the threa a while back where a poster stated she wouldn't see a chiropractor but thought it was ok for a GP to manipulate her back (despite one being a full five year chiropractic bachelor of science degree course and the other having learned to back crack over weekend in between socialising with friends?)

    Is yoga evidence based? Tai Chi? Or is it a case that 'complementary' medicne is ok cos the doctors ok it but alternatives to medicine ie competitors are not?

    Plainer put:

    Conventional Medicine = Us
    Alternative medicine = Them
    Complementary medicine = Treatments/Therapies/Lifestyle additions that We (conventional medicine) decide are ok and can direct.


  • #65
    rbrbrb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43 ✭rbrbrb


    No I didn't but your remark shows what type of a person we are dealing with. I hadn't read this thread 4 weeks ago I'm afraid but as soon as I did I thought 'oh there's someone who deserves a bit of ridicule'. This idea that most medication isn't based on evidence is such rubbish. You haven't quoted any noteworthy scientific/medical journal containing studies that support your claim. Why don't you just pray for any future cures you might need - you probably think that works too.


  • #66
    tallaght01
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,778 ✭✭✭tallaght01


    N8 wrote: »
    alot of cardiac surgery isn't evidence based,

    Don't know much about that in adults....but in newborns it's a deliberately misleading statement.


    N8 wrote: »
    the swine flu vaccine has no evidence of either efficacy or safety,

    Bollocks
    N8 wrote: »
    hip tests on babies,

    Bollocks (as long as staff are trained)
    N8 wrote: »
    alot of medications are without the necessary evidence

    Depends what the "necessary" evidence is.
    N8 wrote: »
    and corticosteroids no one knows how they truly work.
    .
    Doesn't mean there's no evidence base. Loads of evidence for them in paeds.


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  • #67
    N8
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 458 ✭✭N8


    rbrbrb wrote: »
    No I didn't but your remark shows what type of a person we are dealing with.

    I think its safe to say most people would not think homeopathy is the answer to a severed limb no more than a course of antibiotics.

    If you read deeper you will note I don't back homeopathy.

    rbrbrb wrote: »
    This idea that most medication isn't based on evidence is such rubbish. You haven't quoted any noteworthy scientific/medical journal containing studies that support your claim.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1671173/pdf/bmj00147-0006.pdf


    Tallaght01

    hip tests notoriously a source of wrong referrals and time wasting but achieves maternal familiarity with 'the system'

    'necessary evidence' I believed was 'evidence based' - are you about to change the goal posts?

    swine flu efficacy and safety - no evidence of either prior to vaccination (at the time stated to be because of the imminency of the threat - since then we have all found out it was the need to profit make under the umbrella of opportunity afforded by fear mongering)

    sorry Tallaght01 but what you you mean 'deliberately misleading?' Is that like secret moderator alert?

    Perhaps remaining on topic is best rather than being drawn toward ad hominem

    What is alternative medicine?


  • #68
    Biologic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 383 ✭✭Biologic


    N8 wrote: »
    the swine flu vaccine has no evidence of either efficacy or safety
    This study says otherwise. If access is restricted to that article tell me and I'll paste in the details. If you can evidence what you claim then people will be a bit more receptive, otherwise it's just a conspiracy theory.


  • #69
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,874 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    N8 wrote: »
    swine flu efficacy and safety - no evidence of either prior to vaccination (at the time stated to be because of the imminency of the threat - since then we have all found out it was the need to profit make under the umbrella of opportunity afforded by fear mongering)
    Ha, I love the hypocrisy over this little chestnut.
    "The evil government/medical community are fearmongering to make profits."
    Then,
    "the vaccine is untested and might kill you all!"

    Hilarious.


  • #70
    N8
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 458 ✭✭N8


    Biologic wrote: »
    This study says otherwise. If access is restricted to that article tell me and I'll paste in the details.

    Thank you - accessed it. However the saying 'One swallow does not make a summer' comes to mind and if thats the fullness of the evidence base for safety and efficacy of the swine flu vaccine I am glad I gave it a miss

    Biologic wrote: »
    If you can evidence what you claim then people will be a bit more receptive, otherwise it's just a conspiracy theory.

    sorry I don't mean to be rude but have you been living under a rock?

    King Mob wrote: »
    Ha, I love the hypocrisy over this little chestnut.
    "The evil government/medical community are fearmongering to make profits."
    Then,
    "the vaccine is untested and might kill you all!"

    Hilarious.

    classic deliberate misquotation - and the profiteering - don't take my word for it...


    http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=16667

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jan/11/swine-flu-h1n1-vaccine-europe


    And then back on topic.... what is alternative medicine?


  • #71
    bleg
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,848 ✭✭✭bleg


    N8 wrote: »
    classic deliberate misquotation - and the profiteering - don't take my word for it...


    http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=16667

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jan/11/swine-flu-h1n1-vaccine-europe


    There is no evidence there, just accusations. I'm really getting sick of this bull****. They were back in January, any chance of something more up to date? Have they debated these yet? What were their findings?


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  • #72
    rbrbrb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43 ✭rbrbrb


    Alternative medicine is demonstrably false. If procedures used in western medicine are found to be demonstrably false they fall out of use pretty quickly.

    This is the Health SCIENCES forum. Please use another forum to pedal your quackery.


  • #73
    Biologic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 383 ✭✭Biologic


    N8 wrote: »
    Thank you - accessed it. However the saying 'One swallow does not make a summer' comes to mind and if thats the fullness of the evidence base for safety and efficacy of the swine flu vaccine I am glad I gave it a miss
    Firstly, if you're going to poo-poo the study, what's wrong with it? At least explain what your issue is with their methodology. Secondly, It's one more than you provided. But anyway, here's a link to two more. How many swallows make a Summer exactly?
    N8 wrote: »
    sorry I don't mean to be rude but have you been living under a rock?

    What do you mean by that? I presume you think you've evidenced all your claims, you clearly haven't. You claimed the H1N1 vaccine was useless and didn't back it up. I claimed it was useful and did back it up, then you came back at me with some folksy analogy. As I said, if you want to rant the conspiracy theories forum will welcome you with open arms. I'm genuinely interested to see any evidence that proves many developed countries spent millions on a vaccines with the effectiveness of bogwater.


  • #74
    tallaght01
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,778 ✭✭✭tallaght01


    Honestly lads, you engage with N8 on more than a superficial level at your peril.

    Anyone who claims there's no evidence for the stuff he's mentioned above doesn't exactly keep up with the literature.


  • #75
    RobFowl
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 11,678 Mod ✭✭✭✭RobFowl


    N8 wrote: »

    hip tests notoriously a source of wrong referrals and time wasting but achieves maternal familiarity with 'the system'

    swine flu efficacy and safety - no evidence of either prior to vaccination

    "wrong referral" now that's an interesting phrase. Hip testing infants is simply a screening test and by definition should lead to a lot of false positives. This does not by any stretch of the imagination mean further investigation is a "wrong referral".

    Swine flu was at one stage thought to be the severe flu epidemic which is statistically over due. The vaccine was as safe as it was possible to be at short notice and saying there was "no evidence" of efficacy and safety is just plain wrong.

    I'm with Tallaght1 here. Such inflammatory, incorrect and nonsensical comment dressed up as informed commentary really just deserves to be ignored. If you want to be taken seriously here than you need to up your game dramatically.

    PS snide comments re Tallaght1 and modding miss the spot completely as you should know he/she is (unfortunately) no longer a moderator here (and in my humble opinion is sorely missed)


  • #76
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,874 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    N8 wrote: »
    classic deliberate misquotation - and the profiteering - don't take my word for it...


    http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=16667

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jan/11/swine-flu-h1n1-vaccine-europe

    Lol.
    Globalresearch....
    Neither global nor research.


  • #77
    N8
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 458 ✭✭N8


    rbrbrb wrote: »
    Alternative medicine is demonstrably false.

    I would agree acupuncture has no evidence until of course a GP decides to use it - then its fine and no longer alternative but 'complementary'

    rbrbrb wrote: »
    This is the Health SCIENCES forum. Please use another forum to pedal your quackery.

    you might find I am peddling nothing but am replying to the OP (here
    RobFowl wrote: »
    "wrong referral" now that's an interesting phrase. Hip testing infants is simply a screening test and by definition should lead to a lot of false positives.

    sorry - what? There should be alot of false postives - perhaps better training would help.
    RobFowl wrote: »
    Swine flu was at one stage thought to be the severe flu epidemic which is statistically over due. The vaccine was as safe as it was possible to be at short notice and saying there was "no evidence" of efficacy and safety is just plain wrong.

    other than of course there was no evidence of its efficacy or safety.
    RobFowl wrote: »
    PS snide comments re Tallaght1 and modding miss the spot completely as you should know he/she is (unfortunately) no longer a moderator here

    sorry my comment wasn't intended to be snide but a reflection upon the inflammatory and over the top wording of Tallaght01's reply - 'deliberately misleading' - it was not.

    I realise Tallaght01 is no longer a mod - whether due to illness (hope you are getting better) or playing the man instead of the ball - is irrelevant and you trying to play my comment up as snide is laughable.

    Is this thread doomed to personal attack now or will it return to OP?


  • #78
    RobFowl
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 11,678 Mod ✭✭✭✭RobFowl


    N8 wrote: »
    sorry - what? There should be alot of false postives - perhaps better training would help.

    If you don't understand the concept of screening and why clinical examination leads to false positive then there's really no point engaging with you.

    Without being patronising. Examaning babys hips at birth anf 6 weeks you are trying to elicit a click or a clunking sensation. This is not diagnostic of CDH but is a reason for referral for further investigations . If you think this is a "wrong referral" than you simply don't know what you are talking about. The test is by its very nature over-sensitive statistically.


  • #79
    lonestargirl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,501 ✭✭✭lonestargirl


    N8 wrote: »
    sorry - what? There should be alot of false postives - perhaps better training would help.

    By their nature screening tests have a high sensitivity (and low specificity). A discussion of these 2 topics can be found here.


  • #80
    opinion guy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,000 ✭✭✭✭opinion guy


    N8 wrote: »
    I would agree acupuncture has no evidence until of course a GP decides to use it - then its fine and no longer alternative but 'complementary'

    Oh I'm glad you said this. Why ? For acupuncture has a unique quality amongst alternative health modalities. Why is that I hear you ask ? Acupuncture is the only alternative health modality that has been extensively scientifically investigated. And those investigations have shown that acupuncture is effective for specific things. They don't explain why it works, they just show that it works in particular circumstances to relief particular pains.

    So why shouldn't a GP use it ? There is scientific evidence that it works.


  • #81
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,874 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    opinion guy wrote: »
    Oh I'm glad you said this. Why ? For acupuncture has a unique quality amongst alternative health modalities. Why is that I hear you ask ? Acupuncture is the only alternative health modality that has been extensively scientifically investigated. And those investigations have shown that acupuncture is effective for specific things. They don't explain why it works, they just show that it works in particular circumstances to relief particular pains.

    So why shouldn't a GP use it ? There is scientific evidence that it works.

    They know quite well how it works, the placebo effect.

    There's a ton of interesting studies showing that sticking needles in the wrong places, using retractable needles or using a toothpick can be as effective or more effective than "real" acupuncture.

    Here's a video that sums these up better than I can:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pp5eiHUdwb4


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  • #82
    locum-motion
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,144 ✭✭✭locum-motion


    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_RQjQvxtmK8A/TG27SJoHUtI/AAAAAAAADN8/aHDZNQEyWEc/s1600/Woo+Table+v2.1.png


  • #83
    opinion guy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,000 ✭✭✭✭opinion guy


    locum-motion wrote: »
    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_RQjQvxtmK8A/TG27SJoHUtI/AAAAAAAADN8/aHDZNQEyWEc/s1600/Woo+Table+v2.1.png


    To be honest I find this to be just as ignorant as someone who comes on here and says spinning anticlockwise whilst singing ring a ring a rosy cured here their leprosy.

    Theres a plethora of different systems and beliefs on there. It takes a spectacular level of ignorance to take a couple of hundred belief systems and tar them with the same brush periodic table


  • #84
    locum-motion
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,144 ✭✭✭locum-motion


    Lighten up.
    It's funny!


  • #85
    Turtwig
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    opinion guy wrote: »
    Oh I'm glad you said this. Why ? For acupuncture has a unique quality amongst alternative health modalities. Why is that I hear you ask ? Acupuncture is the only alternative health modality that has been extensively scientifically investigated. And those investigations have shown that acupuncture is effective for specific things. They don't explain why it works, they just show that it works in particular circumstances to relief particular pains.

    So why shouldn't a GP use it ? There is scientific evidence that it works.

    No there isn't. Nothing beyond the placebo effect (which many people seem to overestimate its efficacy.). It's bizarre though, when nearly every blind study showed no evidence of acupuncture being effective, some scientists seemed to think that non blinded studies were necessary.:confused: These studies consequently are the ones that contain the "evidence".


  • #86
    bleg
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,848 ✭✭✭bleg


    locum-motion wrote: »
    Lighten up.
    It's funny!

    It's funny 'cause it's true!:D


  • #87
    RobFowl
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 11,678 Mod ✭✭✭✭RobFowl


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIaV8swc-fo


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