Can we have the same Europe with different people ?

lauddly_irish · 06-09-2010 02:27PM #1

Hi all,
I am asking this question because I am wondering if immigrants try to integrate in Europe society?
This also the main question of the book "Reflections of the Revolution in Europe : Immigration,Islam and the West" .
in Ireland there is not as many immigrants as in France for instance (where I come from). But already Ireland is changing too.
Is Europe too tolerant ? In the next 50/100 years will we change rules, laws of society just to accommodate Muslims ?

I know personally Muslims in France and I don't have any problem with them. But I read newspapers in France and I notice that France is changing.
For example Islamic meals were imposed to the French football team. In Lille, Muslims have different hours to go to the swimming pool.
In some Muslim district French women are harassed by males because they are not Muslims.
Some french women convert to Islam in order to be in peace with this harassement of muslim men.
I know that these are done by extremists/thugs. But these extremists seem to gain power in Muslims district.
Also some young Muslims generation are very intolerant against homosexual, freedom of women as it was showed on a documentary.

Recently a meal wine-pork sausages in the street of Paris has been forbidden,
because the government did not want to offend muslims(who don't drink alcohol, neither pork).
In the same time each Friday muslims close a street in Paris to pray in it without authorisation of the government.
But we let them pray there in order to keep Social peace..

In french supermarkets , we can see Islamic food more and more. 10 years ago I could not see that.
I understand we should respect other cultures in our country . But to my mind it seems my country is changing completely.
More and more mosque are being built all over France too. In France everybody can criticize catholic religion with no problem.
But if you critic Islam you are racist !
Do you think Ireland, France, Europe can stay secular with different people in Europe ?

chin_grin · 06-09-2010 02:29PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paragraph

EDIT: Heh, you're fast!

And also AH =/= Advice with Homework.

Banned Account · 06-09-2010 02:32PM

Thinly disguised "I don't like islam" thread.

biko · 06-09-2010 02:52PM

Are you saying that Islam may ruin mainland Europe?
Or that Muslims will?
Or people from MENA will ruin Europe?

Owwmykneecap · 06-09-2010 02:54PM

Ireland's not secular to begin with.

losthorizon · 06-09-2010 02:59PM

I went to Bosnia a few years. None of the Muslim women were wearing veils. In fact, they were wearing short skirts etc. Maybe you should go and visit european countrys with european muslims. In the end everyone will be become pretty integrated. I mean we Irish were once Celts, Vikings, Normans etc

Corsendonk · 06-09-2010 03:00PM

Should this be in the politics or the racist forum?

pickarooney · 06-09-2010 03:03PM

Just because a burger is made with Halal meat doesn't make it an 'islamic meal'. It doesn't taste any different and nobody is forced to eat it. Same with the supermarkets - you don't have to buy Halal food any more than you have to buy Kosher food, Coeiliac food, Vegan food, Mexican food...

Have you a link to where sausages and wine are banned in French restaurants?

Banji · 06-09-2010 03:05PM

OP sounds like a journalist or student or something..

lauddly_irish · 06-09-2010 03:07PM

wow why is this post racist ? I based this question on a book written by an reputed historian. Where did i talk about race in here ?
Its crazy that we cant talk about islam without being treated of racist..

And i am only talking about facts i can read in the news..

So can we have a discussion without being treated racist ? I am open minded. I am just asking this question beacuse the society is changing in Europe(France,UK,Germany,..).
In Ireland it is fine but in some aeras in France it is not.

Corsendonk : you should live few years in a muslim district in 93 departement and then we will talk again about it

.

losthorizon : I dont think we can compare Bosnia with France.
Bosnia has a very different history. Muslims there have been converted by Turks 400 years ago...
Furthermore they live in this country for centuries.

demonspawn · 06-09-2010 03:10PM

I think France is currently the most intolerant country in Europe ever since it banned headscarves in schools and is now trying to deport Roma en mass. How does that answer your question OP? Your country has gone from a bastion of liberty to an oppressive, racist, fascist state? Now what do you think of that?

Banned Account · 06-09-2010 03:10PM

lauddly_irish wrote: »

wow why is this post racist ? I based this question on a book written by an reputed historian. Where did i talk about race in here ?
Its crazy that we cant talk about islam without being treated of racist..

And i am only talking about facts i can read in the news..

So can we have a discussion without being treated racist ? I am open mind. Basically it is an interrigation i have about islam.. In Ireland it is fine but in some aeras in France it is not.

Corsendonk : you should live few years in a muslim district in 93 and then we will talk again about it .

losthorizon : I dont think we can compare Bosnia with France. Bosnia has a very differnet history and muslims there have been converted by Turks 400 years ago...

Look, the fact is that you are making a blad statement which is borderline complaining about the fact that Muslims don't integrate with society, there seems to be very little to your post apart from that.

biko · 06-09-2010 03:11PM

Anyway, I don't see this lasting much further unless you make a better case.

Are you French living in Ireland and think that immigration of Muslims will change Ireland somehow?

ejmaztec · 06-09-2010 03:19PM

I think that the last person to try for a same Europe/Different people result blew his brains out in a Berlin bunker in 1945.

Thank you Godwin.

King Felix · 06-09-2010 03:24PM

demonspawn wrote: »

I think France is currently the most intolerant country in Europe ever since it banned headscarves in schools and is now trying to deport Roma en mass. How does that answer your question OP? Your country has gone from a bastion of liberty to an oppressive, racist, fascist state? Now what do you think of that?

+1

I know loads of French people in Dublin and was having dinner with them a few weeks back and they were complaining (these are indigenous French, btw) about the current state of France, esp with regard to the introduction of the new laws regarding the headscarves, burqas and Roma expulsions.

They compared it to the start of Nazi Germany and stated they wouldn't be going back to live there in a hurry.

I then met another couple of French lads who were in Dublin for a couple weeks (more indigenous white French) who said they couldn't believe the freedom walking and driving around with a lack of police stop and searches and checkpoints.

lauddly_irish · 06-09-2010 03:24PM

I understand my post is controversial. First of all I am not a racist. I have black,arab, indian friends. I can talk with anybody with no problem.

As for people thinking France is a racist country : look our French football team

!

Also headscarves iare forbidden, in France, because there is a separation between the church and the state 100 years ago.
Since then Catholics can no more express their religion in schools for instance. Headscarves are seen as an expression of religion.
Therefore it is banished at school too. People have freedom of religion in France.
But it should not be expressed in public schools according to the laws of 1905.

It is true for Muslims, Catholics, protestants, etc...

Therefore it is not racist because these rules were there well before Muslims arrived in France.

As for the people comparing nazism and the political situation oin France = godwin point !
You have no idea what you are talking about !

Donkey Oaty · 06-09-2010 03:27PM

pickarooney wrote: »

Have you a link to where sausages and wine are banned in French restaurants?

Maybe the OP means this:

http://in.reuters.com/article/idINIndia-49456520100619.

(Reuters) - A "sausage and wine" party went ahead in Paris despite a police ban but was staged near the Arc de Triomphe instead of in a Muslim neighbourhood.

Friday's event had been criticised as highly provocative because it was planned for the day of weekly Muslim prayers and the World Cup soccer match between England and Algeria, a former French colony that is majority Muslim.

Friday was also the 70th anniversary of General Charles de Gaulle's 1940 "Appeal of June 18" from London calling on the French to resist the German occupation. The Internet page advertising the party had repeated references to resistance.

The mayor of Paris had said the event was "clearly inspired by extreme right-wing movements". Paris police banned the party because it risked sparking disturbances.

af_thefragile · 06-09-2010 03:29PM

That book by Christopher Caldwell is the bigger load of horse manure I've come across. Firstly he's not even European to begin with and then he goes on about "European identity" in the classic American stereotyping way. All Irish people should wear green clothes and be drunk on Guinness, all English people stand upright and talk with funny accents, all French people ride around on bicycles and eat onions...

Nothing could be further from the truth. Yes societies change and evolve over time. And Europe if anything is becoming more American than Islamic. We've got mcdonalds and burger king on every corner. We buy their music, we buy their clothes, we even buy into their wars!
And I don't see him moaning about how Europe has become like America.

I accept there's some truth in what he says about there being crime and such in the Muslim ghettos of these countries, England and France mainly. But the cause of that is not Islam, it's their poor social condition. You don't have such problem among Muslims here because most Muslims here are professionals (many doctors) who live decent lives.

And it is true the statistics say that Islam is growing rapidly in Europe (though usually statistical predictions are very wrong) and that is just a result of globalisation. Thinking we might all someday have to walk around with our heads covered and be forced to eat halal meat is plain islamaphobia. Just accept it you don't like seeing darker skin people in your neighbourhood.

And OP I don't mean to call you racist. My post is a response to that book you mentioned in your post.

Puteq · 06-09-2010 03:35PM

demonspawn wrote: »

I think France is currently the most intolerant country in Europe ever since it banned headscarves in schools and is now trying to deport Roma en mass. How does that answer your question OP? Your country has gone from a bastion of liberty to an oppressive, racist, fascist state? Now what do you think of that?

Well, firstly lets not confuse racism with discrimination against a specific religion. Anyway i digress, I would say France is not intolerant in banning headscarves, rather they try and prevent religious differentiation between children in school (there will be plenty of time for that when they grow up). Look at Northern Ireland where they separate children into different schools based on the childs religion (never mind the fact that none of these children are at an age to make an informed decision about what religion they choose to be) - this has caused nothing but trouble and a deep rooted 'them and us' mentality. France try to keep all this differentiation outside of schools by not allowing any religious icons, from any religion. it would be totally different if they said 'we ban islam stuff but allow jew stuff' or whatever, but for now in keeping all that nonsense out of the school they are doing a good thing

ArmaniJeanss · 06-09-2010 03:40PM

lauddly_irish wrote: »

For example Islamic meals were imposed to the French football team.

Seriously? Would like a link on this.

lauddly_irish · 06-09-2010 03:47PM

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Seriously? Would like a link on this.

I cant find any articles in english. Basically it was stopped recently with the new manager of the french football team Laurent Blanc.
Up until now islamic meals were imposed to the french football team even for non-muslims.

http://www.lepost.fr/article/2010/08/25/2195045_laurent-blanc-supprime-les-repas-halal-en-equipe-de-france.html

af_thefragile · 06-09-2010 04:13PM

Puteq wrote: »

Well, firstly lets not confuse racism with discrimination against a specific religion. Anyway i digress, I would say France is not intolerant in banning headscarves, rather they try and prevent religious differentiation between children in school (there will be plenty of time for that when they grow up). Look at Northern Ireland where they separate children into different schools based on the childs religion (never mind the fact that none of these children are at an age to make an informed decision about what religion they choose to be) - this has caused nothing but trouble and a deep rooted 'them and us' mentality. France try to keep all this differentiation outside of schools by not allowing any religious icons, from any religion. it would be totally different if they said 'we ban islam stuff but allow jew stuff' or whatever, but for now in keeping all that nonsense out of the school they are doing a good thing

I have to agree and disagree at the same time. France seems to be a case of secularism gone mad to a point it's hindering the very freedom it was to bring into the society.

I agree with the whole notion of all children should be treated equally. But I disagree on the way it has been done. In a free country the people should have the freedom to dress the way they find appropriate. Instead of banning all religious symbols, the kids should be taught to treat one another the same despite of who/what they are.

Children usually don't see one another as a muslin or a Christian or a Jew or anything regardless how they're clothed. They see everyone the same and have a great ability of getting to know one another without any inhibitions. It's only when they grow up such prejudices take shape due to social conditioning.

Tolerance is not making everyone the same copies of one another but instead to respect the differences among people and know at the end of it all we're all human and we're all the same. Once you start liking beyond the cultural differences you'll notice how we're all alike. Afterall we're all from the same planet.

Prof.Badass · 06-09-2010 04:43PM

losthorizon wrote: »

I went to Bosnia a few years. None of the Muslim women were wearing veils. In fact, they were wearing short skirts etc. Maybe you should go and visit european countrys with european muslims. In the end everyone will be become pretty integrated. I mean we Irish were once Celts, Vikings, Normans etc

When they integrated, there were no major religious differences between the celts, vikings and normans. Religion (like culture) is ultimately a tool used to divide people and generate hate between them.

Unlike culture, religion is a hell of a lot more resiliant and can be passed down for generations virtually unchanged (the islam practiced in europe is extremely unlike to merge with christianity over time).

For a perfect example, look at the history of jews in europe. I'm not for one second saying they were in any way responsible for the persecution they endured, just that in a world without irrationalist nonsense (religion) they never would have been kept apart from the rest of european society, and we all would have lived happily ever after.

I'm not saying that religion makes integration impossible, but it does make it harder.

Btw, if we want to convert muslims to rationalism, going out of our way to antagonise them will work about as well as british efforts to convert us to protestantism (as in: not at all, in fact counter-productive). Of course, idiots who are led by their evolutionary emotions rather than rationality don't care, they just want the satisfaction of "scoring a point" against their enemy (be it the "scumbags", the "towelheads" or whatever new group of people it is in vogue to hate).

af_thefragile · 06-09-2010 04:54PM

^actually Islam has been through it's phase of rationalism. There have been many great rationalist philosophers of Islam such as Ibn Sina (Avicenna) and Ibn Rushd (Averroes). Their rationalist philosophy became very popular in the Islamic world and Europe alike. But then their philosophy was refuted by Al-Ghazali for a more spiritual philosophy which then had the biggest influence on Islam till today. He did had a big influence on many European Christian philosophers of the middle ages as well. Thomas Aquinus was greatly influenced by his philosophy.

So I doubt rationalism will ever take roots in Islam. Islam is a deeply spiritual religion.

Prof.Badass · 06-09-2010 05:30PM

af_thefragile wrote: »

^actually Islam has been through it's phase of rationalism. There have been many great rationalist philosophers of Islam such as Ibn Sina (Avicenna) and Ibn Rushd (Averroes). Their rationalist philosophy became very popular in the Islamic world and Europe alike. But then their philosophy was refuted by Al-Ghazali for a more spiritual philosophy which then had the biggest influence on Islam till today. He did had a big influence on many European Christian philosophers of the middle ages as well. Thomas Aquinus was greatly influenced by his philosophy.

So I doubt rationalism will ever take roots in Islam. Islam is a deeply spiritual religion.

I think you're misinterpreting my post.
In these modern times, religious/spiritual beliefs are not compatible with rationalism.

roryc · 06-09-2010 05:37PM

lauddly_irish wrote: »

as in France for instance (where I come from).

Stopped reading...

I opened this thread planning on writing something witty about removing the French from Europe to make it a much, much better place. However the fact that OP is French means if I do this I will risk a ban... Im biting my tongue here

PeterIanStaker · 06-09-2010 05:39PM

Banji wrote: »

OP sounds like a journalist or student or something..

his assignment's due tomorrow and he's going on AH for material:eek:

lauddly_irish · 06-09-2010 05:48PM

What is sure is that islam will have more and more importance in Europe. Because if immigrants from muslims countries continue to come in Europe, this religion will have more and more importance.

The demography of Europe is changing. It is not unthinkable that some european countries in few years time will have a muslim majority..
it is not crazy to think that these countries may change their laws to satisfy the new majority and elect a president with more islamic views...

Hopefully Europe will stay the same with freedom of speech and equality of women. I hope for our grand children ...

Mike 1972 · 06-09-2010 05:59PM

lauddly_irish wrote: »

And i am only talking about facts i can read in the news.. .

Seemingly the Daily Mail now have a French edition :rolleyes:

lauddly_irish wrote: »

It is not unthinkable that some european countries in few years time will have a muslim majority..

Bosnia, Albania, Kosovo and Turkey will

Just like they do now

Nowhere else will

af_thefragile · 06-09-2010 05:59PM

Prof.Badass wrote: »

I think you're misinterpreting my post.
In these modern times, religious/spiritual beliefs are not compatible with rationalism.

That is what I said. This whole debate has happened in Islam about 900years ago and it ended in the refutation of rationalism for spirituality as the way forward.

Maybe in the western world rationalism is the way forward but in the Islamic world spirituality will always be prevalent over rationalism.

You could convert all Muslims into rationalist atheists but you can't make Islam a rationalist religion.

Though saying that most concepts in Islamic law and jurisprudence are very rationalist. It is the belief system that is spiritual.

It is true that religion/spirituality cannot be fully compatible with rationality though if you look historically Islam has been the one religion which has come closest to being compatible with rationality. Ibn Sina and Ibn Rushd were the most successful philosophers in bringing together the concepts of religion and rationality.

After them rationality was refuted in the Islamic world and when it was revived in the European world, it ended with Neitzsche declaring the death of god and religion.

Though I guess I have gone off topic here...

af_thefragile · 06-09-2010 06:16PM

lauddly_irish wrote: »

What is sure is that islam will have more and more importance in Europe. Because if immigrants from muslims countries continue to come in Europe, this religion will have more and more importance.

The demography of Europe is changing. It is not unthinkable that some european countries in few years time will have a muslim majority..
it is not crazy to think that these countries may change their laws to satisfy the new majority and elect a president with more islamic views...

Hopefully Europe will stay the same with freedom of speech and equality of women. I hope for our grand children ...

These are central concepts in Islam as well.
The sad thing is that they aren't being established in the Muslim world due to cultural influences.
But the western Muslims are much more progressive and hold the values of freedom and rights very strongly.

In a way it seems like the new western Muslims (which comprises of muslims of immigrant heritage and Muslims of western heritage who have converted to islam or born into a family of concerts) are more proper Muslims than the ones in the east. They talk about integrating into the society and most of them do reject the cruel cultural practices that take place in the muslim countries under the name of Islam.

If you ask around the Muslims in this country and any other western country (and for that fact most Muslim countries as well) they'll all mostly tell you they reject terrorism, extremism, violence towards women, hardline Islamist beliefs and any notion of converting Europe or USA into Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan.

I really can't see why people are so scared of "all these Muslims taking over our countries". That is not going to happen. It's only media and books such as that Cristopher Caldwell's one that is making people paranoid.

Can we have the same Europe with different people ?

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