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People turning down 25k/year jobs - reality or FF spin?

  • 03-09-2010 12:56PM
    #1
    thebaldsoprano
    Closed Accounts Posts: 827 ✭✭✭


    From this article:
    Mr O'Keeffe said he had met representatives of small businesses in Galway on Wednesday who informed him that people were turning down jobs paying €25,000 a year because they would lose entitlements.

    "I met 25 representatives of small business there, and there are real concerns that jobs being offered at €25,000 a year are not being taken up, and Eamon O'Cuiv and myself are sitting down and looking at how we can achieve this," he said.
    Are our state benefits really that generous? I've a hard time buying this, since dole and 500 pm rent allowance for a single person works out at ~16k. Surely an extra 9k will provide enough of an incentive for a good number of suitably qualified people to apply for such a job.

    Is this FF spin, or am I missing something?


«1345

Comments

  • #2
    Colonel Sanders
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,669 ✭✭✭Colonel Sanders


    I know of people who have turned down jobs not because of losing entitlements but because they were offered much less than they were earning during the so called boom (and feel they're entitled to expect the same wage now & are almost insulted when someone expects them to work for less). I think welfare in Ireland is far too generous but this could be another FF attempt to foster another "Them Vs Us" attitude in public opinion (similar to how they've tried to turn the private sector against the public sector) before making decisions on cutting welfare.


  • #3
    changes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 959 ✭✭✭changes


    thebaldsoprano wrote: »
    From this article:

    Are our state benefits really that generous? I've a hard time buying this, since dole and 500 pm rent allowance for a single person works out at ~16k. Surely an extra 9k will provide enough of an incentive for a good number of suitably qualified people to apply for such a job.

    Is this FF spin, or am I missing something?

    If the job is somewhere they need a car to get to it then that 9K will be reduced considerably, also they would prob lose the medical card etc.

    I'm working for 27K and i pay a mortgage and run a car out of that. I do question sometimes why i bother. I don't have a medical card either.


  • #4
    RedXIV
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,568 ✭✭✭RedXIV


    I'm on that and i'm renting and running a car out of it with two kids in the house.

    I'm just hoping for a raise :D


  • #5
    moomooman
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 141 ✭✭moomooman


    I might turn a 25k job down (which is a sizable amount more than I'm earning) if it meant having to commute again. Travel would add another 3 hours to my work day.


  • #6
    rossc007
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 627 ✭✭✭rossc007


    I do know a person who turned down a 28k job because they "wouldnt be much better off".... Shameful attitude if you ask me


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  • #7
    AnnyHallsal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,118 ✭✭✭AnnyHallsal


    It seems like deflection to me. The problem isn't that we have 450,000 people on the dole who won't work for 25,000. If you offered every one of them a job at that salary (or less) the unemployment rate would plummet. Even the WPPs are snapped up immediately.


  • #8
    The_Honeybadger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,264 ✭✭✭The_Honeybadger


    for a young single person 25k would be fine, it would be worth taking the job. For a family man with a couple of kids, if they were to lose RS and medical card and possibly pay for childcare, it would not. Although I think they may be entitled to family income supplement depending on their situation. I find it very hard to believe that a large number of 25k per year jobs are being turned down, where do they think they will do better at the moment, this is spin to justify a cut in the dole and entitlements, which are certainly too high when you consider the revenue we have available to pat for it, and the revenue we are likely to have in future.


  • #9
    SkepticOne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,718 ✭✭✭SkepticOne


    Batt: "I'm also looking at the 64,000 people on a three day week and how we can entice them to go back to work a five day week,..."

    This quote shows how deeply out of touch these politicians are.


  • #10
    changes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 959 ✭✭✭changes


    SkepticOne wrote: »
    Batt: "I'm also looking at the 64,000 people on a three day week and how we can entice them to go back to work a five day week,...

    Thats a very interesting stat, Family Income Supplement is paid out to families learning less than 500 or so a week.

    So if we had a father working in a factory 5 days per week for €400, he/family would get 100 from FIS, what would stop him taking up an offer of a 3 day week for 240 when the FIS will make up the difference. Another soft option thanks to our generous Social Welfare system.


  • #11
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,001 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    I used to work for 23,000 a year and commute to City Centre from outside.

    I still saved ran a car on it and went out every weekend and was saving money. People need to learn to budget.

    In saying that, I don't think anyone on the dole would turn down a job like that. They would most likely take it and look for something else immediately while taking the extra cash while working there.

    It is far easier to get a job when you have a job.


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  • #12
    Essexboy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 778 ✭✭✭Essexboy


    There is a not a shred of evidence to support this claim.


  • #13
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    Essexboy wrote: »
    There is a not a shred of evidence to support this claim.

    Huh? Have you looked at our social welfare system?

    The more kids you have the more money you get. Try encouraging a single parent with 3 kids to take up a job when they get 35k already.http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=66188084&postcount=337

    If you don't have kids nor a welfare dependent partner, its worthwhile taking that 25k job.


  • #14
    max 73
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 120 ✭✭max 73


    SkepticOne wrote: »
    Batt: "I'm also looking at the 64,000 people on a three day week and how we can entice them to go back to work a five day week,..."

    seriously are you batty Batt????

    i'm on a 3 day week, the industry i'm in - construction - with the company i work for has everyone on 3 days.....the work is just not there for a 5 day week, how are you going to entice my boss to put us back on 5 days????:eek:

    with that clown ahern with his atm tax and now o'keeffe with this - what planet are these people on?????


  • #15
    thebaldsoprano
    Closed Accounts Posts: 827 ✭✭✭thebaldsoprano


    gurramok wrote: »
    Try encouraging a single parent with 3 kids to take up a job when they get 35k already

    Good point, and interesting to see the figures, but I'm still not buying it:
    there are real concerns that jobs being offered at €25,000 a year are not being taken up
    It's very easy to read into that there are 25k/year jobs on offer which no one is taking. I'd be very surprised if any such job doesn't generate considerable interest. It mightn't be in some people's interest to take the job, but it looks like FF are tarring all unemployed with the same brush - likely because they want to cut benefits.

    If Mr O'Keefe elaborated and gave details of some of these supposed jobs that'd be fair enough, but failing that he could at least be upfront and say something like "we need to cut benefits because we don't have the money". This type of shenanigans is in no one's interest, except FF.


  • #16
    bbam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,408 ✭✭✭bbam


    Working for the Dole... Why now, when there are so many folks genuinely unemployed.. Asking unemployed highly educated people out to clean the streets and cut hedges is an insult and a sure way to drive emmigration. This should have been done with the 2-3% who were on the dole during the boom... they were intentionally unemployed and the real spongers in our society.

    People have to realise that there is a threshold where it is or isn't worth leaving unemployment assistance to take up a job... So somebody turned down a job at €25K, they probably thought that they could bargain a better salary after getting through the interview, lots of jobs are advertised as salary DOE... There are always more folks ready to take the job, its not like it went unfilled.. (I'm not on assistance so not protecting/defending my own position:))


  • #17
    thebaldsoprano
    Closed Accounts Posts: 827 ✭✭✭thebaldsoprano


    bbam wrote: »
    So somebody turned down a job at €25K, they probably thought that they could bargain a better salary after getting through the interview, lots of jobs are advertised as salary DOE... There are always more folks ready to take the job, its not like it went unfilled..

    Yeah, that's it. If someone does turn down the job, how much of an impact will this have on the business? If there is an impact then this obviously needs to be looked at fairly sharpish, but I'm guessing there's no impact whatsoever - there'll be no shortage of other, equally qualified candidates waiting to take the job.


  • #18
    SkepticOne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,718 ✭✭✭SkepticOne


    This is a classic piece of spin, imo.

    There are two ways of interpreting what Bat O'Keefe is saying. 1. The literal factual way and 2. the intended effect.

    The first is that among the half a million or thereabouts people unemployed there are some turning down 25k jobs. This, of course, is to be expected and no doubt some employer will have some anecdote about how he was turned down by someone on the dole when offering a job. Even if there were no dole, there would be a small number of unemployed people turning down jobs for various reasons.

    The second (intended effect) is that employers are having difficulty filling jobs at 25k and that this is a significant problem. A moments consideration is all that is required to see that the first in no way implies the second.

    AnnyHallsal points out that even WPS schemes where you simply keep your dole are oversubscribed. Personally I know several people who have been put on short time by their employer who would jump at the chance of 5 days a week work. Some of them come in the remaining days unpaid even though this means they are ineligible to sign on.

    This in no way means the dole doesn't need to be cut. The country is more or less broke yet still uncompetitive. It is the spin and manipulation by those that presided over the current mess that I find objectionable.


  • #19
    bbam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,408 ✭✭✭bbam


    SkepticOne wrote: »

    This in no way means the dole doesn't need to be cut. The country is more or less broke yet still uncompetitive.

    Cutting social welfare for those just out of work is weak government and is the hitting of easy targets to be seen to be doing something..

    What we need is regulation and verification of who is getting what.. Get to the bottom of the fraud and the bill for social welfare will be reduced.

    People making out that the recently unemployed are going to break or have broke the country is rubbish..

    Driving down personal income of hard hit families before there is a substantial drop in the cost of living doesn't reflect a forward thinking society.


  • #20
    SkepticOne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,718 ✭✭✭SkepticOne


    bbam wrote: »
    Cutting social welfare for those just out of work is weak government and is the hitting of easy targets to be seen to be doing something..

    What we need is regulation and verification of who is getting what.. Get to the bottom of the fraud and the bill for social welfare will be reduced.

    People making out that the recently unemployed are going to break or have broke the country is rubbish..

    Driving down personal income of hard hit families before there is a substantial drop in the cost of living doesn't reflect a forward thinking society.
    I would disagree with cutting dole in isolation. It needs to be done as part of lowering costs across the economy in both the private and public sectors at all levels. This way, if the dole is cut, prices of goods and services as well as taxes are also lowered.

    We are not a rich country; we merely had the illusion of wealth due to a housing bubble. If we were a rich country then we could also be an expensive country but the illusion of wealth is not enough. The objective of the current government is to preserve as much of that illusion for as long as possible lest the people turn on them so that they can get out at the next election and let the opposition take the blame when the illusion vanishes.

    Hence the "we've turned the corner" rhetoric and the remarks by Batt O'Keefe in the piece the implication of which is that unemployment is caused by people turning their noses up at jobs when for the most part that is not the case.


  • #21
    bbam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,408 ✭✭✭bbam


    SkepticOne wrote: »
    This way, if the dole is cut, prices of goods and services as well as taxes are also lowered.


    If you cut the dole BEFORE there is a cut in the cost of living you are condemming countless families to poverty while they wait in hope that the price of goods and services come down...
    That is the economics of many hungary children


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  • #22
    alex73
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,729 ✭✭✭alex73


    rossc007 wrote: »
    I do know a person who turned down a 28k job because they "wouldnt be much better off".... Shameful attitude if you ask me


    Its true.. I know of many people who would think twice before taking a job because they would loose their benefits.


  • #23
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,566 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    Batt O'Keeffe wrote:
    I'm also looking at the 64,000 people on a three day week and how we can entice them to go back to work a five day week, how we can make it profitable for them go back on a five day week and how we can interact with the employers to ensure that they offer that opportunity.

    What a buffoon! The people on a 3 day week usually don't want to be on it but were put on a 3 day week by their employers as an alternative to redundancies. The work simply isn't there anymore, and/or it's no longer profitable to keep people working their full 5 day week. The employees don't need enticing and employers don't need a simple bit of "interaction" to allow them back on 5 day weeks - there are 64k people on 3 day weeks because there is not enough productive work available for them, but their employers are trying to keep them on.


  • #24
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,566 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    bbam wrote: »
    If you cut the dole BEFORE there is a cut in the cost of living you are condemming countless families to poverty while they wait in hope that the price of goods and services come down...
    That is the economics of many hungary children

    1. Demand leads to high prices, but high prices don't lead to demand. The high level of the dole is a major cause of high prices rather than the dole being high due to high prices.

    2. It's hardly poverty let's be fair. As already mentioned some families on social welfare can earn 35k plus additional benefits on sw. A cut of 5 or even 10k while it would no doubt impact their standard of living, would not condemn them to poverty as even on 25k you can still put food on the table. In the UK a family on benefits will get considerably less than in Ireland, even when you adjust for higher prices.

    3. I fail to see why people with jobs should struggle to keep themselves out of poverty and fail just to keep people who don't work in the standard of living to which they have become accustomed.

    4. If cuts have to be made anywhere, it is logical to cut those payments which produce the least benefit to the country. Social welfare has less benefit than a lot of public services and even less benefit still than infrastructure projects. But ironicially the people of Ireland will vote for cuts in the capital budget sooner than they will for cuts in social welfare. This is a road to ruin.

    I don't want to give people on social welfare less. I'd give them all a million euro a 6 bed mansion and a lamborghini if I could. But the simple, undenyable fact is that we simply cannot afford to keep paying social welfare at present, when the cost of social welfare is heading towards exceeding the two biggest tax receipts - income tax and vat. It might help people to think about it like this: every penny you or I pay in income tax and vat goes to the social welfare.


  • #25
    Kalimah
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,568 ✭✭✭Kalimah


    A friend of mine ignored completely a text from me telling her of some temp work in my workplace. Nice atmosphere,good conditions etc and the job paid 10.50 ph.
    Same woman's husband has been out of work for the last two years and she's down to selling family possessions and crying on the phone to me about no money.
    As someone else said easier to get a job when you have a job.


  • #26
    thebaldsoprano
    Closed Accounts Posts: 827 ✭✭✭thebaldsoprano


    Looks like the spin machine is cranking up...

    From this article:
    THE Government has ordered a full investigation into claims that some Irish businesses have been unable to recruit staff on wages of €25,000.

    Enterprise Minister Batt O'Keeffe said he was taken aback by the claims -- particularly with almost 450,000 people unemployed in Ireland.

    He has ordered a full probe into the claims.

    "Forfas is now doing an analysis of the whole area to see if there a foundation for this particular allegation that's being made," he said.
    It's good to see taxpayers' money being so well spent, as usual.


  • #27
    Nijmegen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,086 ✭✭✭Nijmegen


    This is a typical example of government spin meeting reality.

    On the one hand, these guys are really a bunch of plonkers and have no moral authority to run the country, particularly when they overblow situations like the below.

    On the other hand, I do (as an employer and a businessman) know that looking to hire anyone on less than €25,000 off the dole can be difficult. In some cases. Not all.

    The social welfare entitlements do mean that the gap between dole - rent allowance, dole itself, medical card, etc - and work, where you get hit for transport, for your lunch, etc - isn't so much really.

    I think the easiest way to solve this is to provide people what they need whilst giving advantages to working - don't pay cash for everything. Pay out welfare in the form of "food stamps" - not just for food, but for use on paying bills, buying clothes, etc, with a certain "social stamps" bit thrown in.

    Social welfare should allow people to live, not to live as they wish. I know of cases where people are sitting quite pretty on the dole. In many other cases, they are not. It would make a difference to those sitting pretty if we had a stamps based system.

    The advantage? You get up to 25k in stamps you can spend in a controlled government manner. We can pull you up if you're spending it all on booze. But if you're working, you get 25k cash, enjoy.

    I know there's a "But it's not fair!" argument, but at the end of the day, what is the point of welfare? To help people survive. Stamps do that.


  • #28
    liammur
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,457 ✭✭✭liammur


    Pathetic.
    Why do the likes of 15,000 people then applying for a few hundred jobs in cinemas and shops etc.


  • #29
    Count Dooku
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,413 ✭✭✭Count Dooku


    liammur wrote: »
    Pathetic.
    Why do the likes of 15,000 people then applying for a few hundred jobs in cinemas and shops etc.
    Majority of them are not entitled for benefits
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cf31q4TC790


  • #30
    average_runner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,914 ✭✭✭✭average_runner


    As i saiod before we tried to get Graduates for IT company an they wanted nothing less than 40k!

    Told them where to go!

    I think when you interview someone,t hey should give you their PRSI number so history can be kept. If you offer one of these a job and its 25g a year and they refuse it, well cut all social welfare off them.

    This country needs to wake up, welfare is only a short term solution, if your offer a job thats worst off, well you still take it and do your bit until something better comes along.

    We taken a 25% cut over last 2 years but grateful to be able to contribute to the country


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  • #31
    pocketvenus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 374 ✭✭pocketvenus


    To me this sounds like the usual Government spin. I do not belive that the majority of people made redundant over the past 2 years would turn down a job of €25,000. Ok there may be a small majority who would turn it down maybe due to increase in transport costs, childcare etc,

    However having been unemployed myself for past 15 months I would be happy to take a job with a salary of €25,000. I have applied for for jobs with a salaries varying in amounts form €15,000 to €20,000 and I know it is a large pay cut form what I earned before I was made redundant but my view is it is better to be working build your PRSI back up and have a job.

    The Gov knows it is up the creek without a padle, they won't tackle where the big cuts need to be made such as their own wages and the other high ranking public servants and instead what to blame the newly unemployed and use it as an excuse to cut JA & JB rates in Buget. How about tackiling welfare fraud etc but no the usual excuse is oh it takes too long or too much to bring that or set up a system for it. We are told the public service is over staffed in some areas so use these people to do this.


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