Believers Vs Non-believers

demonspawn · 02-09-2010 05:12PM #1

Am I the only one who's sick to death of this debate? Believers say there is a god with no definitive proof to back up their claim. Non-believers say there is no god with no definitive proof to back up their claim. Can we all just grow up and admit that we just don't know and that there's absolutely nothing wrong with not knowing everything in the universe?

Everyone say it with me: "I don't know." Now say it again to be sure: "I don't know." Now doesn't that feel better? One less thing to fight over.

Ush1 · 02-09-2010 05:20PM

We say there is almost certainly no god. There is evidence for that.

nibtrix · 02-09-2010 05:22PM

DOC09UNAM · 02-09-2010 05:23PM

there is certainly no god, and if perchance he does happen to exist, by some impossible means, he is an absolute cúntychops for all the things that have happened.

Dades · 02-09-2010 05:23PM

demonspawn wrote: »

Am I the only one who's sick to death of this debate? Believers say there is a god with no definitive proof to back up their claim. Non-believers say there is no god with no definitive proof to back up their claim. Can we all just grow up and admit that we just don't know and that there's absolutely nothing wrong with not knowing everything in the universe?

Believers believe there is a god with no definitive proof to back up their claim. Non-believers believe there is no god with no definitive proof to back up their claim. Most on both sides admit that knowledge is beyond our reach, so your point is moot.

Besides, what's wrong with healthy debate?

demonspawn · 02-09-2010 05:25PM

Ush1 wrote: »

We say there is almost certainly no god. There is evidence for that.

How do you provide evidence for the existence of nothing?

Alternatively, how do you prove that something does not exist if you don't know everything in the universe? God could be hiding in a corner somewhere with the lights turned off.

goingpostal · 02-09-2010 05:27PM

I would agree with you that the question "Does god exist?" is pointless. It can't be answered definitively yes or no. However, that doesn't mean that we should give both possible answers the same probability of being the correct answer. We can and should try to weigh up the evidence and try to make up our own minds as to how likely the existence of god is. I have arrived at the conclusion that the probability of god existing is the same as Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny existing. I can't prove that they don't exist, but I don't see any reason why I should believe that they do exist, much less any evidence for their existence.
If I were to say that I had an invisible time machine that only I can see and you were to say that you don't believe me, and I was to say "Prove that I don't have one", you would laugh at me and rightly so. The entire burden of proof is on my shoulders to prove that I do have said invisible time machine. I feel that theists have a similar burden of proof on their shoulders to prove that whatever deity they claim to know, exists. I have never heard a convincing case put forward for the existence of god.

that there's absolutely nothing wrong with not knowing everything in the universe?

Agreed. There is also nothing wrong with wanting to know a little bit more about the nature of our universe, rather than taking things on blind faith.

Ush1 · 02-09-2010 05:27PM

demonspawn wrote: »

How do you provide evidence for the existence of nothing?

Alternatively, how do you prove that something does not exist if you don't know everything in the universe? God could be hiding in a corner somewhere with the lights turned off.

You don't prove it, you work out it's probability. No evidence for God = very low probability.

nibtrix · 02-09-2010 05:27PM

demonspawn wrote: »

God could be hiding in a corner somewhere with the lights turned off.

Sounds like something he'd do alright...

demonspawn · 02-09-2010 05:28PM

Dades wrote: »

Believers believe there is a god with no definitive proof to back up their claim. Non-believers believe there is no god with no definitive proof to back up their claim. Most on both sides admit that knowledge is beyond our reach, so your point is moot.

Besides, what's wrong with healthy debate?

This debate is clearly unhealthy and quite hostile. People are murdered over these beliefs.

If you want to believe in something based on the words of some man that may have existed over 2000 years ago, then do everyone a favor and keep your beliefs to yourself. We don't even know for sure if Jesus ever existed but we base everything around that so-called fact.

Zillah · 02-09-2010 05:29PM

demonspawn wrote: »

Can we all just grow up and admit that we just don't know and that there's absolutely nothing wrong with not knowing everything in the universe?

Uh, that's the atheist's position (or strong agnostic, depending on how you go about it).

As an atheist I say no one knows if there is a God or not, and considering there are an infinite number of supernatural things that could exist, the only reasonable position is to dismiss them all until we get some evidence. We don't know, stop making shit up.

Also, no, obviously the people posting on this board are not sick of the debate.

onlyrocknroll · 02-09-2010 05:29PM

demonspawn wrote: »

Am I the only one who's sick to death of this debate? Believers say there is a god with no definitive proof to back up their claim. Non-believers say there is no god with no definitive proof to back up their claim. Can we all just grow up and admit that we just don't know and that there's absolutely nothing wrong with not knowing everything in the universe?

Everyone say it with me: "I don't know." Now say it again to be sure: "I don't know." Now doesn't that feel better? One less thing to fight over.

I agree that the debate as you've described it here is definitely tedious, and this is the level of the debate you hear most often. But as an atheist I would say that my position is a little more sophisticated then you've put it, and to be fair I think that there are many believers who can argue for the existence of God better then you've given them credit for.

If you're interested why not read a little of what some of the great minds have to say on the subject? Obviously everyone knows of Richard Dawkins, or Betrand Russell's 'Why I am not a Christian' is a good read. Even wikipedia articles on arguments on the 'Existence of God' are pretty interesting too.

I'm only highlight 'if' because it's far from my place to tell you what to read, I think that's pretty arrogant. Most people (I think) don't have very strong opinions on the existence of God, and more power to them that's a very sensible attitude. I'm only interested out of intellectual curiosity, I don't really feel the need to badger others with my opinion.

That's why I completely agree with you that arguments between believers and non believers are tiresome and often pointless.

liamw · 02-09-2010 05:30PM

No one knows. Therefore, there is an infinitely small probability that any one specific deity exists. Yahweh, Allah, FSM and a magnet made of yogurt all have the same probability of exisiting in an unknown realm.

Dades · 02-09-2010 05:31PM

demonspawn wrote: »

This debate is clearly unhealthy and quite hostile. People are murdered over these beliefs.

People on Boards are rarely murdered. With the exception of the odd new poster who likes to think they know how things should work.

Ickle Magoo · 02-09-2010 05:33PM

I'm a non-believer and I don't say there is no god - with no definitive proof. I say I will remain an unbeliever until such a time as I am presented with any kind of evidence to warrant my becoming a believer.

Perhaps if you're bored of the debate, spending so much time on a forum dedicated to religious sceptics is a bit silly?

Turtwig · 02-09-2010 05:35PM

liamw wrote: »

a magnet made of yogurt all have the same probability of exisiting in an unknown realm.

Robin, you do realise that wombat and yoghurt image is going to become a viral eventually? I have already used it once today (due to the whole Hawkins stuff) and I love it - others do too.

demonspawn · 02-09-2010 05:40PM

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I'm a non-believer and I don't say there is no god - with no definitive proof. I say I will remain an unbeliever until such a time as I am presented with any kind of evidence to warrant my becoming a believer.

Perhaps if you're bored of the debate, spending so much time on a forum dedicated to religious sceptics is a bit silly?

Because I'm trying to work out why people are so obsessed with this subject, or is it people are just obsessed with being right regardless of the subject. I'm fascinated and repulsed at the same time.

liamw · 02-09-2010 05:42PM

Malty_T wrote: »

Robin, you do realise that wombat and yoghurt image is going to become a viral eventually? I have already used it once today (due to the whole Hawkins stuff) and I love it - others do too.

I forgot the wombat part

demonspawn · 02-09-2010 05:43PM

onlyrocknroll wrote: »

If you're interested why not read a little of what some of the great minds have to say on the subject? Obviously everyone knows of Richard Dawkins, or Betrand Russell's 'Why I am not a Christian' is a good read. Even wikipedia articles on arguments on the 'Existence of God' are pretty interesting too.

I'm only highlight 'if' because it's far from my place to tell you what to read, I think that's pretty arrogant. Most people (I think) don't have very strong opinions on the existence of God, and more power to them that's a very sensible attitude. I'm only interested out of intellectual curiosity, I don't really feel the need to badger others with my opinion.

That's why I completely agree with you that arguments between believers and non believers are tiresome and often pointless.

I've tried reading all different kinds of stuff but it all seems to be the same argument using bigger words. I used to be a devout atheist and was openly hostile to every other religion. I've had a lot of strange experiences in my life that have made me reconsider my position, but I will never subscribe to an organized religion. I believe they are just a tool to control the population.

Ickle Magoo · 02-09-2010 05:44PM

demonspawn wrote: »

Because I'm trying to work out why people are so obsessed with this subject, or is it people are just obsessed with being right regardless of the subject. I'm fascinated and repulsed at the same time.

I presume you are also on the politics forum asking why so many people who are disgusted with the state of the government and don't vote FF are posting there? Or perhaps why those in the soccer forum are so obsessed with what other teams are doing and how it affects them? Is it not fairly self-explanatory why religious sceptics would have an interest in religious scepticism?

liamw · 02-09-2010 05:45PM

demonspawn wrote: »

Because I'm trying to work out why people are so obsessed with this subject, or is it people are just obsessed with being right regardless of the subject. I'm fascinated and repulsed at the same time.

Can you imagine what the world would be like if nobody ever critized or questioned irrational beliefs?

sensibleken · 02-09-2010 05:46PM

demonspawn wrote: »

Everyone say it with me: "I don't know." Now say it again to be sure: "I don't know."

The spider baby, it has the body of a spider but the mind of a baby. It wouldnt really bite you unless it got a bit older

Ghestos · 02-09-2010 05:53PM

I olny belive what i see with my own eyes.Not what I hear from others,or what said in the books.Even it has lot of evidences.

demonspawn · 02-09-2010 06:00PM

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I presume you are also on the politics forum asking why so many people who are disgusted with the state of the government and don't vote FF are posting there? Or perhaps why those in the soccer forum are so obsessed with what other teams are doing and how it affects them? Is it not fairly self-explanatory why religious sceptics would have an interest in religious scepticism?

Laws can change, politicians can be replaced and governments can swing from one extreme to the other. Soccer isn't worth even talking about. Hardcore sports fans are some of the most bizarre people I've ever encountered.

Religion, on the other hand, seems to be set in stone. For some reason unknown to me, people thinks it's perfectly acceptable to follow rules that no longer apply to modern society. The fact that our calendar is based on the life and death of one man is incredible.

To me, atheism is just another religion except there are no beliefs in anything. It's equally ludicrous as actual religion.

Zillah · 02-09-2010 06:02PM

Ghestos wrote: »

I olny belive what i see with my own eyes.Not what I hear from others,or what said in the books.Even it has lot of evidences.

Do you believe that Venezuela exists?

Zillah · 02-09-2010 06:04PM

demonspawn wrote: »

To me, atheism is just another religion except there are no beliefs in anything. It's equally ludicrous as actual religion.

In what way is atheism like a religion?

Would you consider your not believing in vampires to be a religion?

Ickle Magoo · 02-09-2010 06:05PM

demonspawn wrote: »

Laws can change, politicians can be replaced and governments can swing from one extreme to the other. Soccer isn't worth even talking about. Hardcore sports fans are some of the most bizarre people I've ever encountered.

Religion, on the other hand, seems to be set in stone. For some reason unknown to me, people thinks it's perfectly acceptable to follow rules that no longer apply to modern society. The fact that our calendar is based on the life and death of one man is incredible.

To me, atheism is just another religion except there are no beliefs in anything. It's equally ludicrous as actual religion.

Oh dear man of pasta - not yet another "atheism is just another religion" claim. As far as points on originality go you are on -300 if I'm being generous, it's ironic to say the least that you think the forum is full of boring debate. Perhaps if people did a quick search and stopped coming out with the same nonsense there would be more room for original debate?

Religion may be set in stone but the way it affects my life can certainly change and so can the opinions of those that read and partake in some of the discussions. I can't change the world doing crosswords either but that doesn't diminish the enjoyment I get from them.

pH · 02-09-2010 06:08PM

demonspawn wrote: »

Am I the only one who's sick to death of this debate? Believers say there is a god with no definitive proof to back up their claim. Non-believers say there is no god with no definitive proof to back up their claim. Can we all just grow up and admit that we just don't know and that there's absolutely nothing wrong with not knowing everything in the universe?

Everyone say it with me: "I don't know." Now say it again to be sure: "I don't know." Now doesn't that feel better? One less thing to fight over.

Well that's not the debate is it really?

Theists are a lot more concerned than in the existence of God, there's a claim that a God exists, that he wants to be worshipped, that he has laid down some rules that need to be followed, and that all this makes a real difference.

To narrow it down to one of "does God exists" ends up back in the same old clichéd debates, far more interesting than the theist's claim that God exists, is their bigger claim: that of knowing the mind of God.

demonspawn · 02-09-2010 06:09PM

Zillah wrote: »

In what way is atheism like a religion?

Would you consider your not believing in vampires to be a religion?

A bunch of people sitting around claiming they know the truth without providing any real evidence to support their claim...nah, that's nothing like religion at all. What was I thinking? :rolleyes:

As far as actual structures; no atheism isn't much like religion, but the mentality sure is.

demonspawn · 02-09-2010 06:13PM

pH wrote: »

To narrow it down to one of "does God exists" ends up back in the same old clichéd debates, far more interesting than the theist's claim that God exists, is their bigger claim: that of knowing the mind of God.

I'd rather not go into the sheer arrogance required by religious people that claim to know what this God wants us to do. It's incredibly infuriating to say the least.

Ickle Magoo · 02-09-2010 06:18PM

Atheism is just a lack of belief in a god/s, there is no requirement to have absolute surety that there is no god and most atheists don't - in saying that, I've put the likelihood of a god existing in the same basket as fairies and unicorns rather than 50-50; though the minute that any evidence of any of those things presents itself, I'll be the first in the queue of devout believers.

Believers Vs Non-believers

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