Overtaking a Slow Moving Vehicle

langdang · 25-08-2010 11:54AM

einheisserschre wrote: »

The hard shoulder on the opposite side would barely fit a bicycle

As mentioned, in my op I left out something. No one edged out to see if the road ahead was clear before I began my overtake. It was due to this that I assumed it was safe for me to do so.

Had there been someone behind me or in front of me who did this, I obviously would have stayed where I was.

Ya, it's dangerous when they pull out on ya on a road with no hard shoulder. And as you say, had they been more assertive and taken up a position that signalled they might overtake when the chance arose then you would have given them priority.

The pre-emptive toot of the horn when overtaking seems to be common enough in rural Mediterranean areas (bad roads, lax driving), maybe we should all be at it?

kippy · 25-08-2010 12:07PM

eden_my_ass wrote: »

Thats mostly down to the poor level of education we have on our roads, not because overtaking is in itself dangerous, it should be no more dangerous than driving on a two lane road. When you have people though who do things like helping out by hitting the brakes when they notice they're about to be overtaken (nothing more frightening than executing a smooth maneuver only to find the car in front is falling back on you waaay too fast as you accelerate and move out past it!)

Overtaking is THE most dangerous manouver you can do on the roads.
Its IS NOT AT ALL no more dangerous than driving on a two lane (I assume you mean dual carriageway/motorway)road. To suggest it is the same is not thinking about the reasons why overtaking is so dangerous.
Driver education and driver awareness are two of the reasons why we have so many issues in this country with road use, that does not make manouvers such as overtaking exceptionally dangerous. So much of what can go wrong is completely outide of your control.

eden_my_ass · 25-08-2010 12:15PM

kippy wrote: »

So much of what can go wrong is completely outide of your control.

Welcome to driving, where you must learn all you can to be as confident of the control you have over your own situation and to be as aware as possible of the environment you're operating your vehicle in.

Overtaking is not unique in that respect and despite your opinion of it being the most dangerous thing on the road, I can think of plenty of other situations where I've seen and heard of higher rates of near misses and accidents, ever drive on a busy multi-lane roundabout in Ireland lately for instance, I'd happily spend a day overtaking cars rather than a day looping around a roundabout...and I bet I'd have a better chance of getting to the end of the day in one piece overtaking all day!

kippy · 25-08-2010 12:31PM

eden_my_ass wrote: »

Welcome to driving, where you must learn all you can to be as confident of the control you have over your own situation and to be as aware as possible of the environment you're operating your vehicle in.

Overtaking is not unique in that respect and despite your opinion of it being the most dangerous thing on the road, I can think of plenty of other situations where I've seen and heard of higher rates of near misses and accidents, ever drive on a busy multi-lane roundabout in Ireland lately for instance, I'd happily spend a day overtaking cars rather than a day looping around a roundabout...and I bet I'd have a better chance of getting to the end of the day in one piece overtaking all day!

Not many fatal accidents occur on the roundabout - I would guess a large proportion of fatal accidents occur in overtaking.

I've been driving a good few years (about 200k miles at this stage).
Driving is a dangerous activity, where no matter how "good" or condifent you are or how "aware" of your surroudings you are, it takes very little for you or a passenger to end up in a bodybag through no fault of your own.

BrianD3 · 25-08-2010 12:35PM

eden_my_ass wrote: »

Overtaking is not unique in that respect and despite your opinion of it being the most dangerous thing on the road, I can think of plenty of other situations where I've seen and heard of higher rates of near misses and accidents, ever drive on a busy multi-lane roundabout in Ireland lately for instance, I'd happily spend a day overtaking cars rather than a day looping around a roundabout...and I bet I'd have a better chance of getting to the end of the day in one piece overtaking all day!

How many people die on multi lane roundabouts? How many people die because of bad overtaking maneouvres?

When an overtake goes wrong this is what can happen - surely you can see that this is much more dangerous than most roundabout collisions

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWxLaS5Y4s0

25-08-2010 01:00PM

Mr. Presentable wrote: »

IMHO you shouldn't be attempting to overtake two cars and a tractor in one run. Notwithstanding that, the other driver should have ensured the way was clear for him to pull out.

Why not, I have often overtaken 10+ car in one run, if you concentrate and be ready for someone to pull out in front its not overly dangerous. If the car in front are not going to make a move I'm not going to sit there like a fool only to miss my chance and get stuck behind a tractor/slow driver for miles and miles more.

Minstrel27 · 25-08-2010 01:25PM

BigEejit wrote: »

Good god the amount of camper vans doing 30mph, with clowns just doodling along behind them with no intention of overtaking, nearly drove me simple

This drives me mad. If a person has no intention of overtaking someone then why drive so close to them. It is this idiocy that will sometimes leads to a person overtaking dangerously on a road.

eden_my_ass · 25-08-2010 01:41PM

kippy wrote: »

Not many fatal accidents occur on the roundabout - I would guess a large proportion of fatal accidents occur in overtaking.

I've been driving a good few years (about 200k miles at this stage).
Driving is a dangerous activity, where no matter how "good" or condifent you are or how "aware" of your surroudings you are, it takes very little for you or a passenger to end up in a bodybag through no fault of your own.

Um, yes I think we concur that driving is dangerous, that was my point, many aspects of it are dangerous, but "not many" and "would guess" don't exactly prove your point that overtaking is the devil of all road activities...sorry don't buy it yet.

eden_my_ass · 25-08-2010 01:45PM

BrianD3 wrote: »

How many people die on multi lane roundabouts? How many people die because of bad overtaking maneouvres?

When an overtake goes wrong this is what can happen - surely you can see that this is much more dangerous than most roundabout collisions
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWxLaS5Y4s0

I also would like to see the statistics you ask for, however I'm not trying to prove one is the more dangerous, just that there are many dangers out there.

When a roundabout maneuver goes wrong this is what can happen - surely you can see that this is much more dangerous than most overtakes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beafgcQOt30

MetzgerMeister · 25-08-2010 01:50PM

eden_my_ass wrote: »

When a roundabout maneuver goes wrong this is what can happen - surely you can see that this is much more dangerous than most overtakes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beafgcQOt30

That's like watching the blair witch project. If I saw waht I was supposed to see, it could be called the car ditch project :pac:

eden_my_ass · 25-08-2010 01:53PM

einheisserschre wrote: »

That's like watching the blair witch project. If I saw waht I was supposed to see, it could be called the car ditch project!

Pretty poor alright but I just picked the first result I got off youtube, just having a go at people "proving a point" with youtube :P

dr.fuzzenstein · 25-08-2010 01:56PM

kippy wrote: »

Overtaking is THE most dangerous manouver you can do on the roads.
Its IS NOT AT ALL no more dangerous than driving on a two lane (I assume you mean dual carriageway/motorway)road. To suggest it is the same is not thinking about the reasons why overtaking is so dangerous.
Driver education and driver awareness are two of the reasons why we have so many issues in this country with road use, that does not make manouvers such as overtaking exceptionally dangerous. So much of what can go wrong is completely outide of your control.

That's exactly the kind of thinking that causes problems, how often have I been on perfectly good stretches of road with a slow moving vehicle (60-80 km/h) and the driver behind being to scared/incompetent to overtake.
In most cases the 3rd vehicle will also not overtake, forcing everyone else to overtake 3 vehicles in one go.
My limit is around that mark, I seriously dislike overtaking more than 3 vehicles and will only do so if I've been stuck there for a long time, have seen from previous clear stretches of road that the cars ahead have no intention of ever overtaking and the whole thing moves 60 km/h or slower.
Then I will overtake more than 3 cars.
I have seen cars following trucks at 80 km/h on a motorway because the drivers are SO scared and useless that they won't even overtake on a motorway, they just set off, get stuck behind whatever slow moving vehicle and follow it all the way.
This kind of driving creates a new danger just as bad as the slow moving driver who is creating the holdup in the first place, because finally people will get fed up and start taking risks and the longer the wait, the bigger the risk people will eventually take.
Any counterargument of "well they shouldn't take risks then!" is perfectly logical and exactly what I'd expect to hear in this discussion, but you're failing to take human nature into account.
Since we're not living in a perfect world people will do dumb stuff, so our solution should not revolve around trying to change basic human nature (not gonna happen), but remove the cause for this behavior in the first place.
Dual carriageways and motorways have helped a great deal, but people will always overtake, simple as.

kippy · 25-08-2010 02:14PM

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

That's exactly the kind of thinking that causes problems, how often have I been on perfectly good stretches of road with a slow moving vehicle (60-80 km/h) and the driver behind being to scared/incompetent to overtake.
In most cases the 3rd vehicle will also not overtake, forcing everyone else to overtake 3 vehicles in one go.
My limit is around that mark, I seriously dislike overtaking more than 3 vehicles and will only do so if I've been stuck there for a long time, have seen from previous clear stretches of road that the cars ahead have no intention of ever overtaking and the whole thing moves 60 km/h or slower.
Then I will overtake more than 3 cars.
I have seen cars following trucks at 80 km/h on a motorway because the drivers are SO scared and useless that they won't even overtake on a motorway, they just set off, get stuck behind whatever slow moving vehicle and follow it all the way.
This kind of driving creates a new danger just as bad as the slow moving driver who is creating the holdup in the first place, because finally people will get fed up and start taking risks and the longer the wait, the bigger the risk people will eventually take.
Any counterargument of "well they shouldn't take risks then!" is perfectly logical and exactly what I'd expect to hear in this discussion, but you're failing to take human nature into account.
Since we're not living in a perfect world people will do dumb stuff, so our solution should not revolve around trying to change basic human nature (not gonna happen), but remove the cause for this behavior in the first place.
Dual carriageways and motorways have helped a great deal, but people will always overtake, simple as.

Are you suggesting I am an incompetent driver?

I made the point that overtaking is the most dangerous manouvre on the roads, in my opinion. I didnt say that I dont overtake.

Just a few articles on overtaking:
http://gulfnews.com/news/gulf/uae/traffic-transport/wrong-overtaking-main-cause-of-fatalities-on-the-road-1.90270
http://www.landofsixpeoples.com/news604/nc611305.html
(I would genuinely like to get some more relevant ones but all I have are anecdotes)

Having driven over 200k miles I have seen numerous near misses from guys (generally) - almost going head on into (innocent) cars coming the opposite direction and indeed a couple of fatal accidents where either the innocent or the overtaker werent so lucky. It genuinely scares me that there are people out there who put my welfare at risk on a daily basis overtaking where it is not safe to do so, no matter what horsepower their engine.

Mint Sauce · 25-08-2010 02:18PM

As a recently-ish new driver (test passed), over taking is still one of the things i am still wary of. On at least two occassions i have had the car i was passing speed up on me.

Most recent was on a single carriage way, national road, no hard shoulders. Car in front driving well under the limit, 100kph section, never getting over 70-80, contantly braking, dropping to as little as 30. In the end i dropped to 4th, held back and waited for a suitable section to over take. Car behind me seemed to have the same idea as could see them in my mirrors edging over the white line as if they were looking for a gap.

Came across a suitable section, long straight, car infront showing no signs of speeding up, nothing coming towards us, broken white lines, plently of time to pass, indicating, up to 5th, sped up, mirrors, out i pull, as drawing level, said car appeared to speed up as was now matching my speed (near the 100 mark) leaving me almost hanging in the oncoming lane (still clear thankfully). Now thankfully i was able to get past them, and back in the correct lane before a return to solid white lines, and end of long straight.

Question is, if i was no longer able to get past them, due to them speeding up and now reaching or being close to the speed limit, what would have my options been, apart from me having to go over the limit to get past them, i doubt hanging back and pulling back in behind them was an opition as the car behind me had taken my spot behind them, and was probably also likely to have tried to over take as well.

25-08-2010 02:26PM

irish-stew wrote: »

what would have my options been, apart from me having to go over the limit to get past them, i doubt hanging back and pulling back in behind them was an opition as the car behind me had taken my spot behind them, and was probably also likely to have tried to over take as well.

I wouldn't even have been looking at my speed tbh, as a general rule overtaking moves should be done as quickly as possible, the less time on the wrong side the better. If that means going over the speed limit so be it.

I dont know what car you are driving but I would very rarely be using 5th gear while overtaking at the speeds you describe., drop to 3rd and into 4th during the move would be my usual way of doing things. Especially when something like what you describe happens and you need to speed up quickly, 5th will not offer you a burst of acceleration (at the speeds you describe).

MetzgerMeister · 25-08-2010 02:30PM

Elliana Rapid Gent wrote: »

If that means going over the speed limit so be it.

Not trying to have a go or anything but if you need to break the speed limit to overtake, why are you overtaking in the first place?

langdang · 25-08-2010 02:35PM

Elliana Rapid Gent wrote: »

I wouldn't even have been looking at my speed tbh, as a general rule overtaking moves should be done as quickly as possible, the less time on the wrong side the better. If that means going over the speed limit so be it.

I dont know what car you are driving but I would very rarely be using 5th gear while overtaking at the speeds you describe., drop to 3rd and into 4th during the move would be my usual way of doing things. Especially when something like what you describe happens and you need to speed up quickly, 5th will not offer you a burst of acceleration (at the speeds you describe).

This is the practical common sense answer, but will unfortunately upset the "won't someone think of the children, every time you exceed the limit God kills a kitten" brigade.

Unless you have a very big engine Irish Stew,(not applicable by the sounds of it) you will have eff all power for overtaking with the revs under 3500 RPM (1.4 petrol non turbo etc, ie the typical Irish engine).
Revving a petrol car to 5k or 6k rpm will not make it explode unless you've seriously neglected it and you are very unlucky...

25-08-2010 02:37PM

einheisserschre wrote: »

Not trying to have a go or anything but if you need to break the speed limit to overtake, why are you overtaking in the first place?

If someone is driving within 10 or 15km/h of the speed limit I wont sit behind them and I don't think 10km/h is enough of a speed difference to complete a quick overtake. There are plenty of other reasons for instance: people who speed up to the speed limit on a straight but needlessly drive slowly on other sections of the road, you will need to break the speed limit to get past them on the straight.

Cookie_Monster · 25-08-2010 02:41PM

irish-stew wrote: »

Came across a suitable section, long straight, car infront showing no signs of speeding up, nothing coming towards us, broken white lines, plently of time to pass, indicating, up to 5th, sped up, mirrors, out i pull, as drawing level, said car appeared to speed up as was now matching my speed (near the 100 mark) leaving me almost hanging in the oncoming lane (still clear thankfully). Now thankfully i was able to get past them, and back in the correct lane before a return to solid white lines, and end of long straight.

why on earth would you change up to 5th before going to overtake, it'll just slow you down?
I always change down to 3rd or even 2nd sometimes to get the power and accel to do it as quick as possible.

Mint Sauce · 25-08-2010 02:42PM

Elliana Rapid Gent wrote: »

I wouldn't even have been looking at my speed tbh, as a general rule overtaking moves should be done as quickly as possible, the less time on the wrong side the better. If that means going over the speed limit so be it.

I dont know what car you are driving but I would very rarely be using 5th gear while overtaking at the speeds you describe., drop to 3rd and into 4th during the move would be my usual way of doing things. Especially when something like what you describe happens and you need to speed up quickly, 5th will not offer you a burst of acceleration (at the speeds you describe).

whole manover didn't take to long, it was just that bit of 'oh my god' when thet decided to speed up as i was going past them

einheisserschre wrote: »

Not trying to have a go or anything but if you need to break the speed limit to overtake, why are you overtaking in the first place?

in my case the car in front had had no got above 70-80, and only seemed go beyond that when i tried to get past them.

langdang · 25-08-2010 02:45PM

Elliana Rapid Gent wrote: »

If someone is driving within 10 or 15km/h of the speed limit I wont sit behind them I don't think 10km/h is enough of a speed difference to complete a quick overtake. There are plenty of other reasons for instance: people who speed up to the speed limit on a straight but needlessly drive slowly on other sections of the road, you will need to break the speed limit to get past them on the straight.

i agree, the typical scenario is they are barely able to position themselves properly on the road and maintain a decent speed in good conditions on a GOOD section of the road. You need to pass these rolling roadblocks before the road (inevitably) turns into a glorified cattletrack for 10 miles and they start yo-yoing between 30mph and 45mph randomly. (my usual example here is the Cork - Limerick road, woefully inadequate for the volume and type of traffic on it)

dr.fuzzenstein · 25-08-2010 02:45PM

kippy wrote: »

Are you suggesting I am an incompetent driver?

Absolutely not, I haven't been in a car with you or met you so I don't know.
My point was a general one about people who will NEVER overtake out of fear or incompetence and that they don't make the road a safer place.
Of course overtaking is dangerous, even more so because of people speeding up, moving out, other people not overtaking, etc..
Nothin personal, just making a general argument.

langdang · 25-08-2010 02:48PM

irish-stew wrote: »

in my case the car in front had had no got above 70-80, and only seemed go beyond that when i tried to get past them.

Gearing and engine power delivery differs but in a 1.4 you'd probably be talking 3rd gear for a safe overtake at that speed. If you're not used to it, it will take a bit of practice to match your revs on the downshift so you don't put too much stress on the gearbox etc...

Mint Sauce · 25-08-2010 02:59PM

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

why on earth would you change up to 5th before going to overtake, it'll just slow you down?
I always change down to 3rd or even 2nd sometimes to get the power and accel to do it as quick as possible.

that was why i initally dropped a gear when behind them, so that i could get that aceleration to get past them when i could. rather then staying behind them in 5th the whole time. i thought drop down, hold back, and then when clear speed up again, up the gear, sped up further and pass.

tbh, never thought about starting passing someone in 2nd or 3rd then going up to 3rd or 4th.

Cookie_Monster · 25-08-2010 03:05PM

irish-stew wrote: »

that was why i initally dropped a gear when behind them, so that i could get that aceleration to get past them when i could. rather then staying behind them in 5th the whole time. i thought drop down, hold back, and then when clear speed up again, up the gear, sped up further and pass.

tbh, never thought about passing someone in 2nd or 3rd.

3rd to the red line or there abouts its standard enough for me, just to get the power to do it quickly and then change up as needed. 2nd only when going really slow anyway (ie from behind a tractor doing 30 or similar). that said thats learned from driving **** gutless cars when I was starting where you needed to rev the **** outa them to overtake.

No worse feeling on the road than realising half way through an overtake your going to slow to comfortably make it.

langdang · 25-08-2010 03:15PM

irish-stew wrote: »

that was why i initally dropped a gear when behind them, so that i could get that aceleration to get past them when i could. rather then staying behind them in 5th the whole time. i thought drop down, hold back, and then when clear speed up again, up the gear, sped up further and pass.

tbh, never thought about starting passing someone in 2nd or 3rd then going up to 3rd or 4th.

Again, it depends on gearing and engine but 2nd gear is useful for an overtake starting from 20-30mph (so 30-55kph ish). It will take bit of practice to get your downshift into 2nd right.

My advice (but I'm a bit of a cowboy sometimes when it comes to overtaking) is to stay in the lower numbered gear and accelerate away, ie don't change up unless you are going to hit the redline - better acceleration and your full attention can be given to watching out for dopes

EDIT - DUR, slow typer, cookie monster beat me to it...

mik_da_man · 25-08-2010 09:50PM

draffodx wrote: »

Apparently overtaking 3 vechicle's in one go is dangerous overtaking these days according to the gardai.

Someone else on boards reported being stopped by the Gardai for overtaking 2 cars and a tractor perfectly safely.

Yep that was me

eden_my_ass wrote: »

I wonder how it would hold up in court if it got that far, considering the tractor might be doing 20-30 miles an hour at most, and the two cars behind (the "i don't overtake" type) are typically hugging the back of the vehicle in front (a sure sign they're not dropping back slightly to plan a smooth and safe overtake). Any expert would surely equate that as closely equivalent to overtaking one car doing 50 mph in terms of risk....

I intend to find out! the tractor was a vintage one, travelling about 20 km/hr.
There was me, a van and a car then the tractor. I know the road well and there was a straight coming up. I had a look and not a budge from the other vehicles so I went for it. Made the move fine but just as I was pulling back in a cop on a bike was coming towards me and pulled me over. Wanted to do me for dangerous overtaking, but I think in the end he mentioned crossing a solid white line. He also said if I was just one or 2 cars behind it would have been ok, but 3 was too many!

Mr. Presentable wrote: »

IMHO you shouldn't be attempting to overtake two cars and a tractor in one run..

Rubbish see below
I Totally agree with the below poster

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

That's exactly the kind of thinking that causes problems, how often have I been on perfectly good stretches of road with a slow moving vehicle (60-80 km/h) and the driver behind being to scared/incompetent to overtake.
In most cases the 3rd vehicle will also not overtake, forcing everyone else to overtake 3 vehicles in one go.

So I'm just gonna wait for the fine and have a day in court.

cyclopath2001 · 25-08-2010 10:14PM

mik_da_man wrote: »

I had a look and not a budge from the other vehicles

Perhaps because there was a continuous white line in the centre of the road and they knew it would be illegal to cross it? But you just thought they were gutless eejits?

P.C. · 25-08-2010 10:16PM

langdang wrote: »

That's legitimate and a safe way to do things (but will rub some of those spacers the wrong way unfortunately) but I have a confession to make - when doing the same thing at night I just throw on the full beams (OSRAM nightbreakers) as soon as I pull out, and just push on past. It's a bit aggressive but there are too many dopes out there...

eden_my_ass wrote: »

Why would you even admit to doing something so foolish, you're basically blinding each driver ahead through their driver-side mirror...its not at all aggressive, its a whole different level of ignorant driving. Please stop doing it.

langdang wrote: »

It's alright, they're usually pointed at the back wheel (or folded in, or missing) on the cars in question.

It is NEVER alright to drive with your full beams on when there are cars in front of you, wether you are overtaking them or not.

mik_da_man · 25-08-2010 10:24PM

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Perhaps because there was a continuous white line in the centre of the road and they knew it would be illegal to cross it? But you just thought they were gutless eejits?

Maybe I should have made it more clear for you I was on a straight with broken whte lines.

Where I pulled back in had broken white lines, not sure where the cop came up with the solid white line bit tbh...

Overtaking a Slow Moving Vehicle

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