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Why?(NOT for the depressed or faint of heart!)

24

Comments

  • #32
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    The only meaning to my life is the meaning that I give it.


  • #33
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,618 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    JimiTime wrote: »
    Good philosophy guys. Just wondering how this translates into losing your child to cancer or somesuch?
    I don't know whether you're being purposely disingenuous, or just not paying attention.

    Not believing in an assigned "meaning to life" is not a philosophy it's a belief. It's not a choice - it's a reality - and not one everyone is comfortable with either.


  • #34
    liah
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,750 ✭✭✭liah


    SugarHigh wrote: »
    Why, what's the purpose of doing that?

    What does everyone doing that over and over again achieve. I understand why you'd live your life like that but I don't see how that gives it a purpose or any reason for life to exist.

    I go along with te thinking of there being no reason for life but it's still better than nothing.

    What was that movie? Equilibrium with Christian Bale?

    Yeah, you belong there.

    While I understand that it's all ultimately meaningless I don't see why it's a bad thing to assign my own meaning to it.


  • #35
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    liah wrote: »
    What was that movie? Equilibrium with Christian Bale?

    Yeah, you belong there.

    Who wouldn't want to be a cleric! Cleric's kick ass!


  • #36
    bubonicus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 715 ✭✭✭bubonicus


    Find something worth dying for, too make it beautiful to Live.


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  • #37
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,618 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    I think the point about kids is, not that they offer or fulfill an actual purpose in life, but that they offer you something more important than yourself to care about.

    And take up all your time and resources while they're at it.


  • #38
    SugarHigh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,265 ✭✭✭SugarHigh


    liah wrote: »
    What was that movie? Equilibrium with Christian Bale?

    Yeah, you belong there.

    While I understand that it's all ultimately meaningless I don't see why it's a bad thing to assign my own meaning to it.
    Why? I never said there was anything wrong with emotions jsut that it doesn't give your life meaning.
    I don't see why it's a bad thing to assign my own meaning to it.
    Not bad just pointless. I could say that the only reason the sun rises is because I want it to and that the only reason you exist was to have this conversation with me.


  • #39
    The Mad Hatter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,718 ✭✭✭The Mad Hatter


    We must make our own meaning.


  • #40
    JimiTime
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    Dades wrote: »
    I don't know whether you're being purposely disingenuous, or just not paying attention.

    Not believing in an assigned "meaning to life" is not a philosophy it's a belief. It's not a choice - it's a reality - and not one everyone is comfortable with either.

    Pointlessly scorpy there Dades. The phiosophy I referred to, was the giving yourself purpose, and not merely believing that there is ultimately no purpose.


  • #41
    SugarHigh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,265 ✭✭✭SugarHigh


    The Mad Hatter wrote: »
    We must make our own meaning.
    Why? What happens if we don't?


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  • #42
    CerebralCortex
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,811 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    Dades wrote: »
    I think the point about kids is, not that they offer or fulfill an actual purpose in life, but that they offer you something more important than yourself to care about.

    And take up all your time and resources while they're at it.

    Fairly cruel thing to do to a conscious being who ultimately has no say in the matter, just so you can distract yourself? Why is another human being, which a child is, more important than you anyway?


  • #43
    JimiTime
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    Dades wrote: »
    I think the point about kids is, not that they offer or fulfill an actual purpose in life, but that they offer you something more important than yourself to care about.

    Thats what I thought was clear in my question. The position a child has in your life. I've lost my bother in law and my dad and it was devastating when it occurred. However, the people I've seen who've lost children, there is something different about the grief. Especially when they lose their children when they are just children. In reality, I was wondering about this philosophy of giving oneself purpose, when you factor into things out of the control of the self.


  • #44
    CerebralCortex
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,811 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    The Mad Hatter wrote: »
    We must make our own meaning.

    More like:
    We just make our own meaning.


  • #45
    CerebralCortex
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,811 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    JimiTime wrote: »
    ..there is something different about the grief. Especially when they lose their children when they are just children....

    It's called genetic predisposition.


  • #46
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    JimiTime wrote: »
    Its not a point, its a question. The philosophy of there being no purpose, but that you would give yourself purpose, presuming this purpose to be positive I.E: not, 'My pupose will be to wipe out the Jews' type of thing, sounds healthy. However, how do you deal with losing a child to disease or murder etc in this philosophy? Just wondering, the philosophy deals with what you have control over. How do you extend it to the things which are part of you, but that you can't control, or make decisions on?

    Don't credit me with going anywhere with this btw, I'm just wondering.

    I think people aren't following what you mean by "deal with"

    Say I sit down and go "I love my 2 kids (hypothetically, I don't have kids) and I've decided that my purpose in life is going to be to help them grow up happy and health as much as I can".

    So that is me assigning a purpose to my life. Now one of my kids gets cancer. That really doesn't effect this. I'm still going to do all I can to help my kids. There is nothing I can do about the cancer, but that doesn't change what I've decided my purpose is going to be.

    So I guess I'm not following what you are actually asking here. I'm not sure what there is to misunderstand


  • #47
    JimiTime
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    Wicknight wrote: »
    I think people aren't following what you mean by "deal with"

    Say I sit down and go "I love my 2 kids (hypothetically, I don't have kids) and I've decided that my purpose in life is going to be to help them grow up happy and health as much as I can".

    So that is me assigning a purpose to my life. Now one of my kids gets cancer. That really doesn't effect this. I'm still going to do all I can to help my kids. There is nothing I can do about the cancer, but that doesn't change what I've decided my purpose is going to be.

    So I guess I'm not following what you are actually asking here. I'm not sure what there is to misunderstand


    Indeed, but in reality, such an event can hit you harder than you could probably imagine. The futility of your purpose may alter your purpose, or indeed make you lose or ditch it. I was just wondering, for people who thought about things in the manner of 'giving yourself purpose', have they thoughts on such scenarios.


  • #48
    Waking-Dreams
    Closed Accounts Posts: 506 ✭✭✭Waking-Dreams


    CerebralCortex wrote: »
    Why is another human being, which a child is, more important than you anyway?

    We find ourselves looking after kin, ignoring material self-interest because we are serving the material needs of our selfish genes.


  • #49
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    JimiTime wrote: »
    Indeed, but in reality, such an event can hit you harder than you could probably imagine. The futility of your purpose may alter your purpose, or indeed make you lose or ditch it. I was just wondering, for people who thought about things in the manner of 'giving yourself purpose', have they thoughts on such scenarios.

    I'm not really sure why you think it would alter anything. Shit happens, death, illness, pain, whatever - clearly it's all a normal part of living and it's impossible to live without also experiencing grief and sadness at some stage. I don't think there is any purpose to the good stuff that comes my way and neither do I think there is rhyme, reason nor purpose to the sad stuff. As heartbreaking as loosing a child or someone close to me would be/has been, it still doesn't give any greater a purpose to the overall proceedings than just enjoying the life we have, for as long as we have it, as best we can. :)


  • #50
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,857 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    JimiTime wrote: »
    Indeed, but in reality, such an event can hit you harder than you could probably imagine. The futility of your purpose may alter your purpose, or indeed make you lose or ditch it. I was just wondering, for people who thought about things in the manner of 'giving yourself purpose', have they thoughts on such scenarios.

    Well if I had an event that made me question the futility of my self given purpose to the point of maybe ditching it, then I would imagine that I would that I would question the futility of my purpose, and then maybe ditch it or change it, depending on what conclusions I come to.
    I dont actually understand how this is not immediately obvious. People give, and change, their own purposes all the time.


  • #51
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,618 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    JimiTime wrote: »
    Pointlessly scorpy there Dades. The phiosophy I referred to, was the giving yourself purpose, and not merely believing that there is ultimately no purpose.
    Okay, I'm with you now. :) However I still wouldn't consider it a philosophy in anything other than the most general sense.
    JimiTime wrote: »
    Thats what I thought was clear in my question. The position a child has in your life. I've lost my bother in law and my dad and it was devastating when it occurred. However, the people I've seen who've lost children, there is something different about the grief. Especially when they lose their children when they are just children. In reality, I was wondering about this philosophy of giving oneself purpose, when you factor into things out of the control of the self.
    I'd imagine life purpose is the last thing on one's mind when a child is dying, so like the others, I'm not sure I see the point here.
    CerebralCortex wrote: »
    Fairly cruel thing to do to a conscious being who ultimately has no say in the matter, just so you can distract yourself?
    I think you've read more into that than I've suggested, anyway.
    CerebralCortex wrote: »
    Why is another human being, which a child is, more important than you anyway?
    That's nature, I guess. Though clearly it's not the same in every case. Not every parent gives a crap about their offspring.


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  • #52
    sponsoredwalk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,038 ✭✭✭sponsoredwalk


    CerebralCortex wrote: »
    It's funny how strong the insistence that reproduction is the purpose of living when in reality it's just as ultimately meaninglessful as most any other pursuit. Unfortunately the consequences of such a pursuit regardless of how it makes the pursuer feel are quite serious and all too often taken too lightly. I expect an awful lot of flak for that assertion, but it reinforces the funniness of peoples desire to protect the "greatness" of reproduction for me at least.

    ;)

    You've re-enforced this misanthropic view by asserting the "just" but I
    wonder have you given any thought to what you're implying when
    you write/think this way? Does the idea of you being a workerbee for a
    diety, i.e. you ultimately have no choices & are just filling out a divine
    purpose    , even though you think you're free to choose make you feel
    better?


  • #53
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,857 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    SugarHigh wrote: »
    The Mad Hatter wrote:
    We must make our own meaning.
    Why? What happens if we don't?

    If we dont make our own meaning, then we will have no reason to do anything.


  • #54
    SugarHigh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,265 ✭✭✭SugarHigh


    sponsoredwalk wrote: »
    ;)

    You've re-enforced this misanthropic view by asserting the "just" but I
    wonder have you given any thought to what you're implying when
    you write/think this way? Does the idea of you being a workerbee for a
    diety, i.e. you ultimately have no choices & are just filling out a divine
    purpose    , even though you think you're free to choose make you feel
    better?
    It doesn't matter what choice makes you feel better. Believing that the sun only rises for me would probably make me feel better but it wouldn't make it true.


  • #55
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,473 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    JimiTime wrote: »
    The phiosophy I referred to, was the giving yourself purpose, and not merely believing that there is ultimately no purpose.
    It doesn't matter a hoot whether there's ultimately no purpose, but what does matter is whether one thinks there is.

    In the case of the religious, this purpose usually boils down to a belief that their religious views should be spread everywhere, and doing what they believe that their own personal interpretation of their specific religion tells them.

    For non-religious people, it usually involves helping people, doing interesting things, having a laugh, becoming good at something(s), devoting one's life to one's kids and so on. Generally, things that come under the heading of "making a positive contribution to humanity".


  • #56
    SugarHigh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,265 ✭✭✭SugarHigh


    robindch wrote: »
    It doesn't matter a hoot whether there's ultimately no purpose, but what does matter is whether one thinks there is.
    .
    I'd switch those around.


  • #57
    CerebralCortex
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,811 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    sponsoredwalk wrote: »
    ;)

    You've re-enforced this misanthropic view by asserting the "just" but I
    wonder have you given any thought to what you're implying when
    you write/think this way? Does the idea of you being a workerbee for a
    diety, i.e. you ultimately have no choices & are just filling out a divine
    purpose    , even though you think you're free to choose make you feel
    better?

    I'm an atheist.


  • #58
    The Mad Hatter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,718 ✭✭✭The Mad Hatter


    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    If we dont make our own meaning, then we will have no reason to do anything.

    This, but also I'm not sure it's possible to live without giving your life some sort of meaning. Pretty much everyone has something they want to do with their life, whether it's to raise a family, or to become a millionaire, or to write a novel, or to write bad poetry, or to make music, or to work with charities, or to work for environmental causes, or to experience every possible experience, or to participate in a religion, or to compete, or to get famous, or to make people laugh, or to have fun. What's nice about the modern world is that it's often possible for people to achieve these goals, but even if they don't, it's what drives them on.

    When I say "we must make our own meaning", I don't mean atheists; I mean people, because even members of a religion will decide whether or not that religion is important in their lives.


  • #59
    liamw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,780 ✭✭✭liamw


    Hey OP, you're right, I've battled with this question too. Like ScienceNerd, I find it liberating to be here without any ultimate purpose.

    When I think about how I got to be here I'm in awe; think about it, you're the product of an unbroken chain of successful ancestors since the very first self-replicating molecule. Imagine if your Dad had decided to finish that cup of tea before you were concieved, YOU wouldn't be here. Any series of events except for that exact series and you almost certainly wouldn't be here. It's crazy when you think about it.. and THAT is why life should feel special.

    The idea that there is no meaning or purpose, that we are expendable beings, is not depressing to me. I fully accept the world to be this way, and you know what, it helps me. It gives me a better perspective. It might sound weird, but when a close relative dies, I'm sad but I get over it quickly, I get it, that's life.

    You can also use this to your advantage. If you have an important presentation coming up and you're nervous, just think 'who the fcuk cares? we're all gonna die anyway' :) The problem with this line of thinking is, what actually matters then? I think the answer is nothing in reality. BUT, since I'm here I'm going to relish the good times and get over the bad times by reminding myself that nothing really matters. It seems contradictory (it is), but it works well as a philosophy for me.


  • #60
    bnt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,186 ✭✭✭✭bnt


    The OP asked about an "ultimate" meaning to life, and we atheists have no reason to take such concepts seriously. Thing is: we are here, and that's an objective fact. It's the starting point for whatever happens next. We live because we can. You have a right to do whatever makes you happy as long as it's not at anyone else's expense. It's just a ride, and we can enjoy the ride.

    You are the type of what the age is searching for, and what it is afraid it has found. I am so glad that you have never done anything, never carved a statue, or painted a picture, or produced anything outside of yourself! Life has been your art. You have set yourself to music. Your days are your sonnets.

    ―Oscar Wilde predicting Social Media, in The Picture of Dorian Gray



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  • #61
    sponsoredwalk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,038 ✭✭✭sponsoredwalk


    CerebralCortex wrote: »
    I'm an atheist.

    Well then, what do you mean by including "just" & arguing that
    reproduction is as meaningless as anything else as opposed to meaningful?

    Both points are cut from the same cloth & they point to a deeper outlook
    that I'm trying to understand. It seems to me that it's akin to a
    religious hangover i.e. before you thought things were grand and everlasting
    but now everything just is & that somehow diminishes life compared to
    what you thought when you assumed everything everlasting & fairies
    playing golden harps @ pearly gates... :p


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