Gormley being challenged on Poolbeg Incinerator...

MrDarcy · 22-07-2010 03:08PM #1

Ok I'm no fan of Gormley but in fairness to the man he has actually been elected. It appears from what I'm listening to today that the company behind the Poolbeg Incinerator project are threatening all sorts of consequences if this project doesn't go ahead, they are now looking for a meeting with Brian Cowen, I assume this is some kind of an attempt get Gormley's position on this overturned.

Meanwhile all this is being done in the name of 600 jobs and to assist the economy which I'm all for. But I'm a actually very uneasy with this rampant attempt by an unelected multinational business organisation, to dictate what we are to do here in relation to our waste disposal policies in this country, threatening us with jobs and investment. Not just their own investment I might add, but also wider FDI.

Head The Wall · 22-07-2010 03:28PM

Contracts have been signed with this company, they are not bullying anyone only standing their ground. Now is surely the best time cost wise to build the plant, that's what I would be looking at if I was a shareholder in the company.

They also will have a couple of million invested in the project already. Gormley is just looking out for his job in this situation, he was on the news last week hyping up a change to his new waste policy which would make the incinerator unviable.

Govt will get it's ass sued off them if they don't go ahead with this, they should have thought of all this before they signed the papers

mikemac · 22-07-2010 03:33PM

Dublin City Council signed a contract to send 320,000 tonnes of waste to Poolbeg
The council can achieve this.

Also, the capacity of Poolbeg is much larger so it can handle waste from surrounding counties too. Sending the trucks at night was discussed but of course, residents added this to their list of objections

If the company has a contract with DCC and have designed and invested in the site based on that commitment, the contract can't just be cancelled, not without serious compensation.

I know John Gormley has been speaking on this project for a number of years.
It's all too late now, it is going ahead and won't be stopped.
John Gormley is lashing out now and making sure people see him do this. But it's far, far too late and he cannot change anything. Realy, protesting for PR sake now

If he wanted to do something, 2007 and 2008 was the time to stand firm

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/watchdog-rejects-poolbeg-complaint-2259157.html

THE controversial €350m Poolbeg incinerator moved a step closer to reality yesterday after the competition watchdog quashed complaints the plant breached certain laws.

The ruling was made after claims from private waste management companies that the plant is anti-competitive.

Poolbeg -- a public/private partnership between Dublin City Council (DCC), US giant Covanta Energy and Danish firm Dong -- will have the capacity to process 600,000 tonnes of waste per annum.

However, the Irish Waste Management Agency (IWMA) made the complaints, including claims of numerous breaches of competition law.

They had claimed the deal between the combined operators of the plant favoured Poolbeg as the facility to treat waste from the wider Dublin region.

The Competition Authority rejected all of the complaints, bar one, relating to Dublin City Council's policy of asking home owners to separate glass according to colour at recycling centres.

The Poolbeg plant has been mired in controversy since it was first mooted over 10 years ago. It is located in the constituency of Environment Minister John Gormley who has been accused of having a conflict of interest over the project.

While it has been approved by a number of agencies, including the Department of the Environment, a foreshore licence is required for the construction of a water cooling system.

DCC first lodged an application for a foreshore licence almost two years ago and until it is issued to Covanta Energy, the plant will not be able to proceed.

All the preliminary work on the licence has been done, but no decision has emerged.

The IWMA has said it will seek a meeting with the watchdog over its decision.

Pete_Cavan · 22-07-2010 03:40PM

In fairness, the incinerator has been approved by An Bord Plannala and EPA so it obviously meets are the relevant standards and is deemed safe. If thats the case why would anybody, and particularly a member of our government, want to block something that will create hundreds of jobs and ease our reliance on landfill for the disposal of waste? Well because he opposed it before and cant do a u-turn on it now. The company wants to meet Biffo but he will have to side with John Gormless because he he doesnt Gormless and the Greens will pull out of government and FF will lose record amounts of seats.

In this country ABP and EPA are the bodies that are charged with determining if an incinerator should be built. Gormley, even as Minister for the Environment has no real say in the issue and has no power to stop it only he is trying to introduce new levies to make it unviable. He has absolutely no right to do this and should keep his big noise out. He just wants to make it as dificult as possible for this crowd because they want to built the incinerator in his constituency. You can be sure if they pulled out in the morning, Gormley would drop the levies thing as well and would have no objection to anyone else building an incinerator anywhere else in the country.

This is just NIMBY on a national scale and it is going to hurt the country in the long run. US multi nationals will see our government as unreasonable and this country as a difficult place to do business. And where does Gromley suggest all the waste goes? Landfill? Sorry what colour did you say your party was Mr. Gormley? I'd sooner see Gormley and his shower out of government before Biffo and his lot, and thats saying something.

Cookie_Monster · 22-07-2010 05:02PM

how as minister for the enviroment can he possibly object to an incenerator?

I don't see how he can, sounds much more NIMBY than real concerns

Poly · 22-07-2010 05:10PM

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

In fairness, the incinerator has been approved by An Bord Plannala and EPA so it obviously meets are the relevant standards and is deemed safe.

Bord Plannala are fcukwits!!
We all know what a storrmer An Bord Plannala played in the boom.

IrishTonyO · 22-07-2010 05:10PM

Gormley should be removed from having anything to do with this project immediately. We face a major compensation claim by Covanta and also massive fines from the EU, all because 1 green TD wants people to see him fighting this, even though he is meant to implement the government policy on this. That is why he is now trying to delay and change policy.

It is disgraceful what is happening and am glad to see Covanta going over Gormley's head and going to Cowen

Nijmegen · 22-07-2010 05:13PM

Whaddya know, Parish Pump Politics meets Government Policy.

John Gormley is an eejit.

And without it, and with dumps filling up, RTE news reports that the stretched local authorities are going to pay out 60million euro to private contractors to take their waste?

Thanks John.

mikemac · 22-07-2010 05:51PM

If this incinerator was in Wexford or Kerry or Donegal (I'm just picking corners as examples, could be anywhere) then John Gormley would be welcoming this and telling us of the problems of landfills, most people know the issues with landfills already.

But no, it is in his constituency and in the next few years, his local voters will hammer him for allowing this to go ahead. If Minister for Environment can't do anything then nobody can.

But we need to keep politicians out of planning issues, the EPA are the organization with oversight here.

Speaking out now when it is far too late to do anything is just trying to fight the fight for appearance sake and try to save his skin come election time.

As said, the EU will hit Ireland with fines if we don't sort waste issues and the government will deservedly get hit for compensation in a court case for breach of contract.
And this sends out a message that Ireland breaks contracts with multi-nationals, have rogue senior ministers and a difficult place to do business.
This project could have been stopped......in 2007 before contracts were signed and not now

ART6 · 22-07-2010 05:54PM

My understanding for what it's worth is that the hold up is in the company's application for an offshore licence for the cooling water pipes from the plant. They applied in 2008 and have heard nothing since. If true then it sounds like that's either PS bone idleness or a deliberate attempt to sabotage the project.

Head The Wall · 22-07-2010 08:31PM

According to Gormley there was some delay and his department only received the request in Jan 2010. A lie if you ask me

Secondly what do we actually recycle in this country, am I correct in saying that everything has to be exported to get recycled. I know Quinn has a glass plant somewhere around Fermanagh but I don't know does that recycle glass. I'm sure you have seen plenty of these trucks on the road, they're collecting glass for recycling. Everything in my county gets compacted put into containers and sent to Dublin (I am presuming to the port)

There's also the complaint that the incinerator shouldn't be in Dublin as it's in the city. Ecologically that's the best place to put it, right beside 25% of the country's population as they are the ones that will be using it. Put it outside Dublin city and there would be extra costs because of having to transport it there and trucks coming back empty. This would be bad for the environment.

Gormley is definitely playing with fire on this one

The_Thing · 22-07-2010 09:04PM

The first thing into the incinerator when it's up and running should be Gormley and the rest of the so-called Green Party.

Liam Byrne · 22-07-2010 09:26PM

Gormley is only throwing shapes in order to appear to be against it, because he knows it's going to go ahead regardless, but he can bull**** "I tried".

The meeting with Cowen, etc, is merely FF allowing him to look good in return for Gormley's continued backing of the current dodgy government.

The Greens did the same thing with Shannon Airport and Tara, remember ? They came back and said that Tara had been signed, but we tried.

Typical "playing politics" and bull****tery of the highest order, as usual.

mikemac · 22-07-2010 10:01PM

Head The Wall wrote: »

Secondly what do we actually recycle in this country, am I correct in saying that everything has to be exported to get recycled. I know Quinn has a glass plant somewhere around Fermanagh but I don't know does that recycle glass. I'm sure you have seen plenty of these trucks on the road, they're collecting glass for recycling. Everything in my county gets compacted put into containers and sent to Dublin (I am presuming to the port)

I think there is a REPAK recycling centre in Meath, I'm not 100% sure.
You are correct, a lot of our recyclable material is exported, "dumping" on our problems on other countries and paying for it.

Incineration is not a perfect solution but it's a hundred times better then landfill.
As said, if Poolbeg was not in his constituency Minister Gormley would not give a damn.

The CEO of the Conventa was on the Today FM with Matt Copper today.
No bull**** kind of guy and he put his case forward.
John Gormley has failed and now wants to put in recycle licence scheme so this project becomes uneconomic. Hey, at least he can say he tried come election time
Where was he in 2007/2008, it's too late now to try delaying tactics. 2008 was when applications were lodged, it's too late now

Every CEO in the world is learning Ireland is not a place to invest in even after contracts are signed. We'll get a difficult to work with reputation.

I know the first thing going in that incinerator :mad:

Head The Wall · 22-07-2010 10:17PM

By sending our recycling abroad we're not dumping it on them as such as it will get processed but for the greens it's not very eco friendly with all the fuel burnt transporting it.

There are also Refuse Derived Fuel plants available but I don't know if this incinerator is going to be one (using the heat generated in the incineration to generate power)

mikemac · 22-07-2010 11:17PM

I believe there are plans to turn Poolbeg into a waste to power station.
It has massive capacity, can burn rubbish for Dublin City Council and for other councils too.

As for the people objecting as it is in a city, hey it is in the docklands and even now it's run down area and the docklands is an industrial area.

Conventa promise 600 jobs, not something to be laughed at certainly.

IrishTonyO · 22-07-2010 11:44PM

Head The Wall wrote: »

By sending our recycling abroad we're not dumping it on them as such as it will get processed but for the greens it's not very eco friendly with all the fuel burnt transporting it.

There are also Refuse Derived Fuel plants available but I don't know if this incinerator is going to be one (using the heat generated in the incineration to generate power)

Yes the incinerator in Poolbeg is going to generate electricity.

doctorwu · 22-07-2010 11:58PM

These type of incinarator plants are all over europe. The Green Party in Germany recommends the same plants. Local gombeenism that could cost the nation millions. Gormleys last stand.

mikemac · 23-07-2010 12:11AM

The people in Gormleys area do not want it

So you are correct, it is his last stand.
This will go ahead and the Minister of Environment failed, definite exit back to the county council

oppenheimer1 · 23-07-2010 12:16AM

feelingstressed wrote: »

I believe there are plans to turn Poolbeg into a waste to power station.
It has massive capacity, can burn rubbish for Dublin City Council and for other councils too.

As for the people objecting as it is in a city, hey it is in the docklands and even now it's run down area and the docklands is an industrial area.

Conventa promise 600 jobs, not something to be laughed at certainly.

This old creates jobs line that is being trotted out now is irrelevant. No matter how many jobs something creates, if it is a hazard it should be avoided. However in the case of the proposed incinerator this is not the case. It could bring many benefits to the people in Ringsend, like district heating for which I understand there were pipes installed for. It will also generate electricity, be odourless and run to standard.

Ireland needs an incinerator. Its not green either for councils to be loading containers with rubbish and sending them to landfill in china or to be incinerated in Germany.

Cookie_Monster · 23-07-2010 07:37AM

IrishTonyO wrote: »

Yes the incinerator in Poolbeg is going to generate electricity.

will it provide hot water to the locale too, or is this too much to hope for?

oh well , okay · 23-07-2010 09:23AM

will it provide hot water to the locale too, or is this too much to hope for?

I'd imagine John Gormley may end up in hot water over it , although I doubt that really answers your question .

MrDarcy · 23-07-2010 09:49AM

The_Thing wrote: »

The first thing into the incinerator when it's up and running should be Gormley and the rest of the so-called Green Party.

LMAO!

MrDarcy · 23-07-2010 09:50AM

Thanks for all the posts on this folks, it has been a real education!

Pete_Cavan · 23-07-2010 10:06AM

Head The Wall wrote: »

According to Gormley there was some delay and his department only received the request in Jan 2010. A lie if you ask me

The delay is in abtaining a foreshore licence to allow an out-flow pipe into the sea which is issued by the Department of the Environment. It is true that they would have only received the request in Jan 2010 but that is because DOE were only given responcibility for issuing these licences at the start of this year. Covantamade their application in 2008 and claim they should have been top of the pile when it came to DOE reviewing the applications. Im sure this is just a delay tactice from Gormley who must have told them to "misplace" their application. I cant believe how two faced some people can be (a Green Minister for the Environment opposing the greenest thing this country has seen in years) and how some one can put their own needs before the needs of the country they were elected to represent even though their party will take a hammering at the next election.

MrDarcy · 23-07-2010 11:34AM

The one thing I think is a factor here though is the NIMBY attitude from Gormley's constituents. As a matter of policy, waste generated in the capital should be dealt with/processed in the same region.

Cookie_Monster · 23-07-2010 11:50AM

and anyway its in the port, along with powerstations, scrap metal yards, sewage plants, container terminals and ferry terminals. hardly going to stand out or detract from the area...

Scarab80 · 23-07-2010 12:14PM

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

and anyway its in the port, along with powerstations, scrap metal yards, sewage plants, container terminals and ferry terminals. hardly going to stand out or detract from the area...

It's also right beside the Dublin Port Tunnel. There is probably no better place in the country to place this incinerator!

ART6 · 23-07-2010 04:59PM

feelingstressed wrote: »

As said, the EU will hit Ireland with fines if we don't sort waste issues and the government will deservedly get hit for compensation in a court case for breach of contract.
And this sends out a message that Ireland breaks contracts with multi-nationals, have rogue senior ministers and a difficult place to do business.
This project could have been stopped......in 2007 before contracts were signed and not now

The EU has imposed landfill avoidance targets (LATS) These mean that governments have to set targets for local authorities for the maximum amount of waste they can landfill, and they must take steps to phase out organic waste landfill altogether. I don't know how LATS have been applied in Ireland, but in the UK where my employer is based, from 2011 every tonne of waste landfilled over the target will incur a fine of £150. So, as an example, if Dublin was set a target of 200,000 tonnes to landfill, but sent the 320,000 tonnes that should have gone to Poolbeg, then by UK standards they would incur a fine of £18,000,000 or €21,240,000 at curent exchange rates. That is what Gormley risks saddling the Dublin taxpayers with.

Head The Wall wrote: »

By sending our recycling abroad we're not dumping it on them as such as it will get processed but for the greens it's not very eco friendly with all the fuel burnt transporting it.

There are also Refuse Derived Fuel plants available but I don't know if this incinerator is going to be one (using the heat generated in the incineration to generate power)

Recyclables have for years been exported by many countries -- steel scrap to Spain, plastics to China, etc etc. Ireland is a little unusual in that it exports most recylables, and this really makes recycling here uneconomic and environmentally unsound. We are an offshore island on the northern extremity of Europe, and transport costs and pollution are unsustainable.

Refuse derived fuel (RDF) is not the same thing as incineration although it is regulated by the EU Waste Incineration Directives (WID) that were first introduced in 1996. RDF plants seek to manufacture a solid fuel product from the combustible fraction of waste (paper, cardboard, plastics, tectiles etc.). The processes are normally technically complex and they don't treat all of the waste, but they do create a fuel that is almost carbon neutral.

Incinerators burn mixed waste in vast quantities, although in recent years some have started some degree of pre-sorting to take out materials that are not combustible. The days of mass burn incinerators where the waste was simply burned and the heat lost are long gone, and the WID sets very strict limits on emissions to atmosphere -- in many cases more severe that a coal burning plant would experience.

Anyone with a modern incinerator in their region need not worry. Children will not be born with two heads or goats with six legs. Equally, they will not be aasaulted by flies and rats, will not live with foul odours, or water course pollution and methane gas escape all from landfill. They will not be slowly poisoned by the dreaded dioxins, as incinerators (and RDF fuels) are designed to prevent dioxin formation and have to meet very strict combustion conditions in doing so.

Incinerators are not necessarily the best solution for dealing with growing mountains of waste, but they are sure as hell a lot better than burying it in the ground and polluting the locations for generations - a modern compacted landfill can remain biologically active for a hundred years, and given EU Ground Water Protection Directives, finding somewhere to make a landfill hole is getting more difficult by the day.

As usual Gormley and the "Greens" are taking the simplistic evangelistical approach. Scream for the protection of the environment and the frogs and the bats but don't ever offer an economically, environmentally, technically practical alternative. Demand that everything is recycled, when that is actually impossible and even if it was other countries have their own recyclables. Demand that Tesco stop packaging everything when the reality is that commercial competition (and jobs) relies upon attracting the customer's eye. Stop wrapping everything and save the paper, and repeal the food hygeine regulations to allow it, then all the people dying of food poisoning can read about how Gormley is on top of the situation.

The problem that we have here is that there is a fanatical green tail wagging a FF dog. The dog tolerates the errant tail because without it he wouldn't be a dog.

Macha · 23-07-2010 05:30PM

ART6 wrote: »

Recyclables have for years been exported by many countries -- steel scrap to Spain, plastics to China, etc etc. Ireland is a little unusual in that it exports most recylables, and this really makes recycling here uneconomic and environmentally unsound. We are an offshore island on the northern extremity of Europe, and transport costs and pollution are unsustainable.

Can you provide a link to research on that?

Head The Wall · 23-07-2010 06:56PM

Scrap metal is exported but I don't know where. No smelting furnace in Ireland although as far as I know Cavanaghs hava a foundry in Birr for Cast Iron.

We used to export 50% of our glass in 2008 maybe less now since this plant opened

Minister Gormley Opens New €5 Million State-of-the-Art Glass Recycling Facility in Ireland

Don't know much about what happens to Plastics and cardboard

Gormley being challenged on Poolbeg Incinerator...

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