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Burka ban

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Comments

  • #452
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,464 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Wicknight wrote: »
    Yes, if they can freely choose to conform or not.
    And have acid thrown in their faces if they make the wrong "free choice":

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1484145.stm

    I rest my case!


  • #453
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 53,105 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    I'm religious and support the ban
    strobe wrote: »
    It removes the argument about brainwashing how exactly MB?
    she chose to attend those meetings, and she chose to listen to the messages they were sending her. there was no oppressive parent or partner forcing her into wearing the garb. she chose to do it.
    if you want to portray all forms of religious teaching as brainwashing, so be it. we can disagree on that.


  • #454
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,826 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Wicknight wrote: »
    If a man is oppressing a woman's life this doesn't stop because you remove one aspect that he is using to oppress her.

    Its stops the oppression with that aspect.
    Wicknight wrote: »
    It is like banning frying pans because some women are locked in the kitchen. The woman is still locked in the kitchen.

    Its like banning frying pans in public places, because those frying pans are being carried by women to remind them of their supposed place in society. Nothing says that these women cant wear the burka at home.
    Wicknight wrote: »
    It is not going to stop any oppression.

    Oppression is something people do to other people. If a man is oppressing a woman that isn't going to stop or even get better just because you have removed an option.

    Speeding is just one aspect of bad driving. Banning speeding wont make people magically better drivers, but it will make one aspect better. We shouldn't not act on an aspect of oppression just because we cant stop it all.
    Wicknight wrote: »
    Ok, so a woman has spent her whole life being dictated to by her father, then her husband or what she can wear, see, do, think.

    So the way to show them that they need to break free from this oppression is by enacting a law that will throw fine them or throw them in jail if they don't wear what we tell them too?

    Can you really not see the problem with the message that sends?

    If you want to free women from oppression the way you do it is by showing them that they are the masters of their own destiny, not their father, not their husband, and not the State.

    You are simply replacing one source of oppression for another.

    Which we do all the time. They are called laws. Every law oppresses. And needs to, because people will drive towards their own destinies and runover other people to do it, if there weren't any laws.


  • #455
    irishconvert
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,866 ✭✭✭irishconvert


    robindch wrote: »
    And have acid thrown in their faces if they make the wrong "free choice":

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1484145.stm

    I rest my case!

    Hello, this discussion is about Europe. Maybe you missed that part.


  • #456
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,826 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Wicknight wrote: »
    They could be. I know some aren't.

    Many do, even in very strict places like Afghanistan.


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  • #457
    sink
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    I'm religious and support the ban
    robindch wrote: »
    And have acid thrown in their faces if they make the wrong "free choice":

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1484145.stm

    I rest my case!

    So you prosecute the fookers who threw the acid in her face. I might be forced a gunpoint to wear a t-shirt that says "i'm a stupid ignorant ugly fat bastard". Would your repose be to then ban t-shirts which have self deprecating statements written on them? TBH your logic here is really messed up.


  • #458
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,826 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    magicbastarder wrote: »
    from the article above i posted:
    “No matter how smart I was, I wasn’t getting the respect I wanted,” she said. “They still hit on me, made crude remarks and even smacked me on the butt a couple times.”

    Wearing the niqab is “liberating,” she said. “They have to deal with my brain because I don’t give them any other choice.”
    so that particular woman found wearing the niqab empowering; granted, she may be striving for justification, but it's a point well made.

    Not really. Her answer to people sexualising her at work was to make herself as unsexual as possible. Personally I think if you are being bullied, you should try to stop the bullyers, not just try to stop the bullying. Also I would question why the niqab would stop men already sexually harassing her.


  • #459
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,464 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    irishconvert wrote: »
    this discussion is about Europe. Maybe you missed that part.
    This discussion is about the burqa -- have a look at the thread title.
    irishconvert wrote: »
    Why are you bring up places like Saudi?
    ??? Because you asked me what I knew about and from women who wear the burqa.


  • #460
    irishconvert
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,866 ✭✭✭irishconvert


    Man, you guys are just in complete denial and so weak. Even I as a Muslim I freely admit I hate the burqa. However I respect the decision of a woman to wear it if SHE CHOOSES to do so. You on the other hand dance around every excuse you can think of as why it should be banned, except the real one, you hate it also. The fact you want to ban it brings you so much closer to the leaders of the regimes you love to hate. Maybe you would feel more at home in Saudi Arabia.


  • #461
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,464 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    sink wrote: »
    So you prosecute the fookers who threw the acid in her face.
    The issue is whether or not women are free to wear or not to wear the burqa.

    In general, women who subscribe to islam certainly are not free to make an unencumbered choice, and any claim that women are "free" to make this choice is at best naive and at worst, in denial of the fairly basic facts of the matter.


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  • #462
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,826 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    Dades wrote: »
    So you think the people who wear the burka don't do so out of religious deference?

    They may be brought up being told that its religious, but it isn't (as shown by islamoic countries not controlled by wahabi muslims not requiring it at all).
    Dades wrote: »
    How come everyone, including Muslims, are shouting "Islamaphobia" then? Are they uninformed too, or would it be safe to say a cultural garb become a religious one? :)

    They shout islamiphobia because that is the common response from islam, it being so incredibly scared of criticism (or even questioning).


  • #463
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 53,105 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    I'm religious and support the ban
    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    Personally I think if you are being bullied, you should try to stop the bullyers, not just try to stop the bullying.
    you've actually just kinda proved the point you're trying to contradict. the burka in this case is the bullying (in certainly a significant percentage of the cases). so you're saying that stopping the bullying is ineffective.


  • #464
    sink
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    I'm religious and support the ban
    robindch wrote: »
    This discussion is about the burqa -- have a look at the thread title.??? Because you asked me what I knew about and from women who wear the burqa.

    You need to separate 'burka' from 'religious enforced dress code'. Because you seem to be arguing against the latter and I would completely agree with you, religious enforced dress codes are ethically wrong. However when one is free to dress anyway one chooses, you have yet to come up with a good argument against the burka.


  • #465
    strobe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    I'm religious and support the ban
    irishconvert wrote: »
    Man, you guys are just in complete denial and so weak. Even I as a Muslim I freely admit I hate the burqa. However I respect the decision of a woman to wear it if SHE CHOOSES to do so. You on the other hand dance around every excuse you can think of as why it should be banned, except the real one, you hate it also. The fact you want to ban it brings you so much closer to the leaders of the regimes you love to hate. Maybe you would feel more at home in Saudi Arabia.

    No one is dancing around anything. You brought this up three times now. "Why oh why won't you just admit you don't like the Burqa!" Then everyone says "we don't like the burqa because x,y,z." Then a page or two later you come back and say "at least admit you don't like the burqa". Then everyone does again and gives their reasons.....again. I expect to see you ask the same question in another 20 posts or so. I'll link you to this post.


  • #466
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,826 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    magicbastarder wrote: »
    no-one here is arguing that the burka is not a stupid idea.

    If its stupid, then why allow it? Its not like it isn't bad for society. It promotes oppression of women, it promotes the idea that some unelected religious leader in some far country should have more say than the elected leader in the country you are in.


  • #467
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 53,105 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    I'm religious and support the ban
    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    They may be brought up being told that its religious, but it isn't
    i think the distinction you are trying to make is moot. if someone is preached something as being religious, it becomes religious. remember, part of religion is making the rules up as you go along.


  • #468
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 53,105 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    I'm religious and support the ban
    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    If its stupid, then why allow it?
    because a free society, by definition, allows its citizens to make stupid choices.
    i'm actually trying to get my head around how you can ask that question.


  • #469
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,826 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    irishconvert wrote: »
    Come on, you can't compare the two.

    Not the act, just the idea that you need to know what someone thinks they will get of something in every instance. I dont need to know if I can show why its a bad idea regardless.
    irishconvert wrote: »
    While all of that may or may not be true, it is their choice if they want to wear it. Look, as a Muslim I hate the burqa also, but I also believe in freedom of choice and I don't believe the state should have the right to tell someone how do dress. It is a very slippery slope if you allow that to happen.

    Freedom of choice is not freedom of action. I can want to speed as I drive a car, but that doesn't mean I actually get to. The state restricts freedom in so many ways, because people are stupid and choose to do things that hurt others and themsleves if given the choice, we are in a recession because bankers were given freedoms they shouldn't have been given.


  • #470
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,464 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    sink wrote: »
    you have yet to come up with a good argument against the burka.
    Except for the issue that I keep on coming back to and which -- so far anyway -- has been ignored by people who do not support the ban.


  • #471
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,826 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    irishconvert wrote: »
    Man, you guys are just in complete denial and so weak. Even I as a Muslim I freely admit I hate the burqa. However I respect the decision of a woman to wear it if SHE CHOOSES to do so.

    We are in denial? You are the one who cannot accept where this "choice" is actually coming from.
    irishconvert wrote: »
    You on the other hand dance around every excuse you can think of as why it should be banned, except the real one, you hate it also. The fact you want to ban it brings you so much closer to the leaders of the regimes you love to hate. Maybe you would feel more at home in Saudi Arabia.

    I'm sorry, I sometimes miss posts, did someone say they loved the burka but still wanted it banned?


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  • #472
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 53,105 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    I'm religious and support the ban
    comparing speeding and wearing a burka doesn't provide any insight.
    speeding in a car has potentially fatal consequences.
    if this law was to pass in ireland, i would not be allowed to go out with a veil over my face, even though that act would not have any consequences.


  • #473
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,826 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    magicbastarder wrote: »
    you've actually just kinda proved the point you're trying to contradict. the burka in this case is the bullying (in certainly a significant percentage of the cases). so you're saying that stopping the bullying is ineffective.

    By outlawing the bullying in this case, we are trying to stop the bullyers. The problem is that its pretty hard for places like France and Belgium to legislate against the bullyers, when they live in the middle east.


  • #474
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 53,105 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    I'm religious and support the ban
    robindch wrote: »
    Except for the issue that I keep on coming back to and which -- so far anyway -- has been ignored by people who do not support the ban.
    going by that post, the logical conclusion would be to ban islam.


  • #475
    irishconvert
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,866 ✭✭✭irishconvert


    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    Freedom of choice is not freedom of action. I can want to speed as I drive a car, but that doesn't mean I actually get to. The state restricts freedom in so many ways, because people are stupid and choose to do things that hurt others and themsleves if given the choice, we are in a recession because bankers were given freedoms they shouldn't have been given.

    You keep comparing the wearing of an item of clothing, which harms no one, to other actions which can and do result in death (commiting suicide, speeding in a car). It is not a valid comparsion.


  • #476
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,826 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    I'm non-religious and do not support the ban
    magicbastarder wrote: »
    i think the distinction you are trying to make is moot. if someone is preached something as being religious, it becomes religious. remember, part of religion is making the rules up as you go along.

    In aspect it is moot, just because something is relgious doesn't mean it should be held over something that is someones beliefs (not that religious will admit that).
    magicbastarder wrote:
    because a free society, by definition, allows its citizens to make stupid choices.

    Not when those stupid decisions hurt people.
    magicbastarder wrote:
    i'm actually trying to get my head around how you can ask that question.

    Really? Stupidity (the type that has playboy bunnies claim that MMR vaccinations gave her kid autism, that has people try to use sugar pills to cure aids, that has parents pray for a cure to a simple disease their kid has only for the kid to die while waiting for the miracle) absolutely infuriates me. Crass stupidity like that should be a crime


  • #477
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    Its stops the oppression with that aspect.
    No it doesn't, it simply replaces it with another form of oppression. You cannot stop oppression by introducing it in a different form.

    To stop the oppression with that aspect would be to tell the woman that she can wear what ever the heck she wants and if anyone says otherwise they are in the wrong.

    Not telling women they have to dress a particular way because if they dress a different way they are being oppressed.

    The only thing this ban does is hide the oppression so we can pretend it no longer exists.
    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    Its like banning frying pans in public places, because those frying pans are being carried by women to remind them of their supposed place in society. Nothing says that these women cant wear the burka at home.

    But you know that is someone actually tried to do that (ban frying pans because it is claimed to be a symbol of male oppression of women in the kitchen) they would be laughed at and dismissed as crazy.
    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    We shouldn't not act on an aspect of oppression just because we cant stop it all.

    We should if it doesn't do anything other than further oppress the group we are supposed to be helping.

    You cannot free people by dictating in law what they are supposed to be doing with their "freedom".
    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    Which we do all the time. They are called laws. Every law oppresses. And needs to, because people will drive towards their own destinies and runover other people to do it, if there weren't any laws.

    Exactly. So why are you pretending this law is for liberating people?

    It is to oppress behavior in women we don't like (covering of the face) because we don't like it. It is the same as requiring people to wear pants or a bra.

    It has nothing to do with freeing women from anything.


  • #478
    irishconvert
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,866 ✭✭✭irishconvert


    robindch wrote: »
    Except for the issue that I keep on coming back to and which -- so far anyway -- has been ignored by people who do not support the ban.
    robindch wrote: »
    The issue is whether or not women are free to wear or not to wear the burqa.

    In general, women who subscribe to islam certainly are not free to make an unencumbered choice, and any claim that women are "free" to make this choice is at best naive and at worst, in denial of the fairly basic facts of the matter.

    Let me get this clear, are you saying that Muslim women are incapable of making any choices? No Muslim woman in the world is capable of making any choices herself? Any decision she appears to have made was not made by her?


  • #479
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 53,105 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    I'm religious and support the ban
    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    Not when those stupid decisions hurt people.
    wearing a burka is not in and of itself a hurtful act. you're banning it because of one of the main causes, not because of the burqa itself.


  • #480
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    robindch wrote: »
    And have acid thrown in their faces if they make the wrong "free choice":

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1484145.stm

    I rest my case!

    Then they obviously cannot freely choose and the hypothetical changes. But you never mentioned acid throwing threats in the original hypothetical.

    I'm I just to assume that any woman in a burka is wearing it because they have been threatened with bodily harm?


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  • #481
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 53,105 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    I'm religious and support the ban
    irishconvert wrote: »
    Let me get this clear, are you saying that Muslim women are incapable of making any choices? No Muslim woman in the world is capable of making any choices herself? Any decision she appears to have made was not made by her?
    i think it's been mentioned several times in the thread that a woman who wears the burka cannot have done so out of her own free will. any attempt to raise the idea that some women have worn it out of choice is shot down with 'they are brainwashed'.


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