"It is their culture. What right do we have to say it is right or wrong?"

Oh_Noes · 25-06-2010 02:43AM

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Don't you see that every argument you're making here is completely subjective? You're trying to argue your points from a subjective standpoint. Which makes them completely irrelevant in this discussion. Whether you feel something is right or wrong is completely subjective because you also belong to an established culture.

Arguing that medicine/science has proved things is completely pointless, because western medicine is as culturally rooted as anything else. Arguing that something is scientifically proven/disproven is a tradition is western science.

Subjectivity/objectivity is the key to this discussion. The real question is whether you should impose your traditions on others.

Black Swan · 25-06-2010 02:58AM

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

We have child labour laws so that our children are not exploited for corporate profits as they were in the past during the Western industrial revolution? Do you agree with these laws? Should other cultures/nations be held to the same standards, or should we allow for a double standard to exist, when comparing domestic child labour standards to those of the nations we export labour to increase profits?

I wonder if Nike would have continued to exploit (12 year old) child labour in Pakistan had the corporation not been caught and pictured in Life Magazine? I wonder how many other, less band name famous corporations still exploit child labour in LDCs to increase corporate profits today?

"Children are not only the easiest to intimidate, they're also the cheapest workers. Twelve-year-old Tariq, one of thousands employed in Pakistan's soccer ball industry, which produces five million balls a year for the U.S. market, stitches leather pieces in Mahotra. He earns 60 cents a ball, and it takes most of a day to make one."

Source: http://business.nmsu.edu/~dboje/nike/pakistan.html

Nick Dolan · 25-06-2010 03:01AM

strobe wrote: »

(I'm going to totally Godwin {god I hate the concept of not being allowed to introduce one of the most important events of the 20th century, of any century, without someone feeling the need to "call you on it" that exists online now} my own thread but it has to be done)

So if Population A(Nazi Germany) feels strongly enough about Jews being the bane of humanity and invades Population B (the rest of Europe){Germany included} and starts killing all the Jews(aswell as others), well, tough for Population B? Whoever is the best at forcing their will on others.....Well, fair play?

Indeed tough on Population B. And tough also on the nazi leaders, executed after the allies invaded. I think a better wording of where i was coming from was dont have the moral high ground regarding other peoples cultures. But i think winning a military victory over those peoples means you can exercise your own culture on them. Its not a nice prospect I realise but thats how its worked over the centuries. Regarding individuals going to other cultures to influence them , I dunno.For instance is someone who goes to Afganistan From Ireland to set up a girls school any different to a radical muslim coming to Ireland to stop us drinking?

By the way whats a godwin?

amacachi · 25-06-2010 03:07AM

Nick Dolan wrote: »

By the way whats a godwin?

Godwin's Law more or less states that as an online discussion grows in size the probability of a comparison being made to Nazis or the Holocaust approaches 1.

25-06-2010 08:20AM

strobe wrote: »

Ok I was going to post this in After Hours....but I can imagine how that would play out (and I'm banned from there) so I think this would be the right place for the thread.

"It is their culture. What right do we have to say it is right or wrong?"

I have heard people say this many times, in relation to all kinds of topics. I suppose a few obvious examples of various degree would be: Bull fighting in Spain, the religious police in Saudi Arabia, the non democratic political system in North Korea, the age of consent in Senegal, the laws regarding homosexuality in Sudan, and the more extreme examples of Sharia law around the world.

I was just curious on what other people felt about the opinion.

I think we have human rights, not only-some-people rights. Honestly, I think those basic rights should be universal.

I also think the problem with intervening in other cultures is that those cultures would probably not understand (as in, 'how dare they interfere') and resent the intervention. It wouldn't really change whatever custom. I think some interference against extreme acts maybe like trying to get FGM banned and stoning random girls banned, but education and discussion on the rest.
I don't know...

25-06-2010 08:54AM

strobe wrote: »

Ok I was going to post this in After Hours....but I can imagine how that would play out (and I'm banned from there) so I think this would be the right place for the thread.

"It is their culture. What right do we have to say it is right or wrong?"

I have heard people say this many times, in relation to all kinds of topics. I suppose a few obvious examples of various degree would be: Bull fighting in Spain, the religious police in Saudi Arabia, the non democratic political system in North Korea, the age of consent in Senegal, the laws regarding homosexuality in Sudan, and the more extreme examples of Sharia law around the world.

I was just curious on what other people felt about the opinion.

Do you believe some things are just universaly wrong and culture or autonomy are no excuse? Do you believe each culture or society should be free to exist however they do and people outside of that culture should not get involved? Do you think other cultures have a right or obligation to intercede in certain situations, and if so which, what are the conditions? Who decides and how is the decision of one culture over another quantified as justifiable? Where is the line drawn and can any one culture or individual objectively draw that line with any authority? If you believe it is justifiable for culture A to intercede would it not therefore to be just as justifiable for the opposing culture B to intercede in the opposite direction over the same difference?

I have my own opinions but if it's allowed I'd prefer to reserve them for a few posts to avoid influencing the initial response of others. I will give my own opinion though.

I believe thatno country is perfect, and people tend to look & complain/criticise other cultures/countries than deal with their own problems. Its easier than having to actually do something.

I believe that other countries have the right to live as theychoose to live. If they no longer want to live that way or allow such practices to exist, then they will make the steps towards change. These steps don't have to be patterned the same way as previous countries, and just because we made the same changes 30 years ago, doesn't make us an authority on how to do it.

I believe that there is a lot of misinformation spread around by those that are "for" and those that are "against" and lastly those that "really don't have a clue". After living in many countries in Europe, & Asia I'm still amazed at the amount of misinformation we receive on a daily basis about other countries and their cultural history.

I believe that people tend to pass judgments on other cultures they have absolutely no understanding of. They believe their own culture is superior in some manner and that gives them license to pass sentence. That regardless of the subject matter, they are right and the target culture is wrong.

I believe in two circumstances. When a cultural practice/system is being performed in its originating country/people.... and when the same cultural practice/system is migrated to a vastly different country with its own culture/system. See my posts about face coverings and multiculturalism.
--- In my own country, I stick to the Law, and upholding the spirit of the law, both from a literal sense, and also from a moral/cultural perspective. When I'm in other countries I tend to do the same. It is not my place to screw with their culture. God knows, I have enough problems with western culture systems to prevent any sense of superiority.

And finally.

I believe that International Law is a lovely idea but not terribly practical or fair. Too many times its applied only to the weak while the strong (politically or military) are ignored. Don't get me wrong, I'm against genocide or massacres, and believe that the Int'l community should intercede, but we should never believe that this is about International Law.. its about stability, and the strong towering over the rest. Too many times genocides have continued for years if not decades before any real international intervention for me to believe in any high moral guide for the participants (big or small).
International Law is a form of control. While there are many good laws (from my perspective on human rights and genocide) contained within, it is still something applied to every country without asking their consent. And without being particularly enforced at home.

smiles302 · 25-06-2010 09:30AM

Just a thought, how many people would happily make alcohol and any other drugs banned under the Islam tradition, illegal World-Wide if it was considered an international compromise if they would accept stoning anybody to also be illegal?

I don't see it happening in reality, but it does seem very controlling to suggest they change the things we don't like, if we aren't willing to change the things they really don't like about our culture.

AudreyHepburn · 25-06-2010 10:18AM

strobe wrote: »

Ok I was going to post this in After Hours....but I can imagine how that would play out (and I'm banned from there) so I think this would be the right place for the thread.

"It is their culture. What right do we have to say it is right or wrong?"

I have heard people say this many times, in relation to all kinds of topics. I suppose a few obvious examples of various degree would be: Bull fighting in Spain, the religious police in Saudi Arabia, the non democratic political system in North Korea, the age of consent in Senegal, the laws regarding homosexuality in Sudan, and the more extreme examples of Sharia law around the world.

I was just curious on what other people felt about the opinion.

Do you believe some things are just universaly wrong and culture or autonomy are no excuse? Do you believe each culture or society should be free to exist however they do and people outside of that culture should not get involved? Do you think other cultures have a right or obligation to intercede in certain situations, and if so which, what are the conditions? Who decides and how is the decision of one culture over another quantified as justifiable? Where is the line drawn and can any one culture or individual objectively draw that line with any authority? If you believe it is justifiable for culture A to intercede would it not therefore to be just as justifiable for the opposing culture B to intercede in the opposite direction over the same difference?

I believe that all cultures and belief systems should be allowed to exist and that no-one has any right to tell another person that what they believe is wrong.

Where I see an exception to this is where these beliefs and ideals of culture cause harm to people.

Take for example Female Genital Mutilation in parts of Africa. While this is on the one hand a Cultural practice to me it is nothing more that cruelty to children and young women. It can all sorts of problems at the time, such as severe infection and throughout life e.g. during childbirth assuming you actually survive it. Not mention it is extremely painful.

Or the ways in which many Muslim countries treat their women, robbing them of many of their rights as people.

Practices like these are fundementally wrong and I believe we have a right to object and try to put a stop to them.

irishconvert · 25-06-2010 10:26AM

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Ha! Only if you have a memory which goes back 100 years. Clean water! Muslim Arabs has all of that in the 8th century while we were still of the opinion that it was weird to have a bath more than once a year. So many mathematical, medical and scientific discoveries came from the Arab Muslims. Evey heard of algebra, or the decimal point? All discoveries by Muslims.

Permabear · 25-06-2010 10:50AM

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Truley · 25-06-2010 10:52AM

The general consenses from this thread seems to be that 'primitive' agrarian societies with a tribal structure = bad. Where by our 'modern' and urbanised social structure is better and something that should be emulated. Keeping in mind that nuclear family structures are a relatively new idea, and are by no means the norm on a global level. In fact the idea has failed miserably if you ask me.

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Define 'better' education? What are better farming and manufacturing techniques? Do you mean large scale commercial production? Cleaner water, now that makes me laugh. Only as recent as forty years ago did we adopt a pluming and sanatisation system even close to what the middle east had in the eight century.

AudreyHepburn · 25-06-2010 10:55AM

milehip1 wrote: »

But taking one to a male child's foreskin isn't?

Not even close!

http://www.circinfo.com/benefits/bmc.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision

Male circumcision is done generally for medical reasons and within a hospital environment.

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs241/en/
http://www.fgmnetwork.org/index.php
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_genital_cutting

FGM is done for no other reason than that that part of a woman's body is seen as unclean and evil. It has no medical benefits whatsoever.

It is extremely painful and causes all sorts of complications at the time and later in life such as infection, problems with childbirth and problems during intercourse. Not to mention the physcological problems.

You cannot compare one to the other.

Rev Hellfire · 25-06-2010 10:58AM

Its easy to get worked up about the rights of the poor people while at the same time forgetting that reason you have such a comfortable existence over here in the west is due to our willingness to exploit others.

Its unfortunate, but if you're pragmatic about it there's always winners and losers in life. Just be glad you're not them and get on with your life.

Permabear · 25-06-2010 11:03AM

This post has been deleted.

25-06-2010 11:07AM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Take for example Female Genital Mutilation in parts of Africa. While this is on the one hand a Cultural practice to me it is nothing more that cruelty to children and young women. It can all sorts of problems at the time, such as severe infection and throughout life e.g. during childbirth assuming you actually survive it. Not mention it is extremely painful.

Or the ways in which many Muslim countries treat their women, robbing them of many of their rights as people.

Practices like these are fundementally wrong and I believe we have a right to object and try to put a stop to them.

Whereas I believe that we should provide support, education and such to help them change should they wish it. Your attitude stinks of the Missionaries that went into Africa and other areas, enforcing their belief systems, and ultimately causing more pain than ever before.

I have no problem with objecting to such practices. I do so myself. But ultimately change only truly occurs when the people themselves want to change. Otherwise it just goes underground with even less regard to hygiene, sensibilities, freedoms etc. The culture of most countries which have practices which are opposite to our own, have some sort of protection or compensation involved somewhere along the line. Jumping in, tearing their system apart does nothing to stop the belief system that supports the practices, and just removes the support inherent in the cultures.

All cultures evolve over time, and while they do so too slowly for many people, they don't stay stagnant for the most part. The Muslim culture is changing, and will eventually get to another stage of development. Jumping in and forcing change is only going to create more support for hard-line traditionalist beliefs. Just as jumping in Africa regarding the female genitalia mutilation will just force it further underground with even worse consequences for the women involved.

Give people and their cultures time to change for themselves. Its not as if the west with its mad rush for change has improved immeasurably. We're still juggling issues like crazy. For most of the changes we've established there have been harsh consequences that are harder to fix than the original problems.

Before I lived in China, I heard hundreds of criticisms about how the government rules supreme, how the people are treated harshly, how women are second class citizens, etc etc etc. And yet when I lived there I was struck by how happy most people are. The sense of community which has been lost in Ireland. Sure, life is hard, but they make a life for themselves, and still have an enormous sense of pride in themselves/their country/and their culture. (Yes, Generalizations included) Yes, there were things that had a pinch of truth from the criticisms I'd heard, and yet it was never the whole story. And China is changing. Rapidly in some areas, and rather slowly in others. I'd prefer that they make their changes in a manner that suits themselves, and helps to maintain the bonuses of their society rather than rushing crazily into the "modern" age.

25-06-2010 11:14AM

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I don't really get why we have to assign any one discovery to one nation/people. Who discovered the wheel? Plenty of nations at different stages and many in complete isolation to the others developed such technological advances.

Also considering the amount of trade, and technology seized through warfare it would be extremely difficult to truly say who discovered what. Its just the modern penchant to assign responsibility or recognition to everything. To label everything. :rolleyes:

jackinyogrill · 25-06-2010 11:16AM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Male circumcision is done generally for medical reasons and within a hospital environment.

After reading through the links you supplied, I remain unconvinced that male circumcision isn't elective; "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" is a perfectly valid argument in this case, despite what that surgeon says. Worrying about medical problems that might occur falls under the clinical definition of anxiety, and I think it's highly inappropriate to perform unnecessary surgical procedures on a child in order to make the parents feel more at ease.

Of course, that does not detract from your point at all - there is no comparison at all between male circumcision and FGM, which is demonstrably more traumatising; has much more damaging long-term consequences; and has absolutely no medical (or moral, or logical) justification.

metrovelvet · 25-06-2010 11:19AM

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Male circumcision is done generally for medical reasons and within a hospital environment.

.

In the US it is standard practise for all newborn boys to be circumsized. You have to make a specific request for the infant NOT to be. Im sure they have some "medical" reason why they do it, but it smacks of neo victorianism.

Permabear · 25-06-2010 11:27AM

This post has been deleted.

Pittens · 25-06-2010 11:32AM

and if it can be deemed to be infringing on anyones human rights, these rights are generally taken from the UN Declaration of Human Rights, so the standard has been set, and many countries don't come close.

The cultural relativists on this thread should demand come clean on the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Is that a Western Influenced document, or not?

Who discovered the wheel? Plenty of nations at different stages and many in complete isolation to the others developed such technological advances.

In some cases, yes, in other cases no. The claim that Arabs invented Algebra is symptomatic of how badly educated most people are. The guy who gave his name to Algebra was sriting a synopsis of previous work in the area, which was influenced by Greek and Romans for centuries. To not know this is to not know the Roman Empire, or to not ever do mathematics ( which would name Greeks like Euclid and Archimedies). It's absurd.

I knew this stuff when I was 12 in my dilapidated school in Tipperary.

25-06-2010 11:33AM

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

The problem is that the areas where the Muslim faith is now dominant contained areas which other nations or empires previously held. So claiming ownership for a discovery from a historic nation is plausible considering the claims by other countries. For example, would the UK claim inventions made by the Saxons, the Franks, etc? Its possible...

Personally I think its immaterial. The people who discovered it are dead. The success lies with them, not any particular culture or nation.

Rev Hellfire · 25-06-2010 11:33AM

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

While past achievements are of interest and certainly deserving of acknowledgement what really is of importance and relevance is how a society operates in the present.

Pittens · 25-06-2010 11:34AM

All that said I agree with Klaz's point about not forcing change on people.

Pittens · 25-06-2010 11:35AM

So claiming ownership for a discovery from a historic nation is plausible considering the claims by other countries.

The distinct claim is that Islam gave us Algebra. It existed long before mohammed.

25-06-2010 11:37AM

Pittens wrote: »

In some cases, yes, in other cases no. The claim that Arabs invented Algebra is symptomatic of how badly educated most people are. The guy who gave his name to Algebra was sriting a synopsis of previous work in the area, which was influenced by Greek and Romans for centuries. To not know this is to not know the Roman Empire, or to not ever do mathematics ( which would name Greeks like Euclid and Archimedies). It's absurd.

I knew this stuff when I was 12 in my dilapidated school in Tipperary.

We live in the West, and we're using English. We're also living in a western culture heavily influenced by Latin, and western perceptions. We use algebra for the description, others with their own language system, and history may use something else.

That seems obvious to me. :rolleyes:

Permabear · 25-06-2010 11:39AM

This post has been deleted.

Pittens · 25-06-2010 11:45AM

We live in the West, and we're using English. We're also living in a western culture heavily influenced by Latin, and western perceptions.

what has that got to do with the claim that Arabs produced Algebra? I am not claiming that "we" ( Irish?) invented Latin, English etc.

We use algebra for the description, others with their own language system, and history may use something else.

No idea what you mean by that. Since we are adopting an Arab ( not a Latin) word to describe a form of mathematics I am sure that a similar word exists in other cultures - in particular the Arab culture. What I am claiming is that Arabs did not invent that form of mathematics.

in other news. Arabs did not invent Alcohol. A word with arab roots.

Truley · 25-06-2010 11:48AM

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

However you claim that the western world had 'better' education systems and 'better' farming techniques. And that western occupants are responsible for making middle-eastern culture 'better.'

Islam has produced little of cultural or intellectual significance for hundreds of years, so it's common to hear Muslims still crowing about their glory days back in the 8th century.

:eek: WOW, just , wow.

On the subject of circumcision. While male circumcision isn't quite the same as FGM in terms of pain and the long term effects they have on a person. They are similar in the sense that they are largely carried out on un consenting children, for non-medical reasons.

jackinyogrill · 25-06-2010 11:49AM

The earliest known cultures to have refined systems of mathematics were those of the Mayans and the Olmecs. The 'Arabic algebra' confusion seems to stem from the fact that we use Hindu-Arabic numerals.

AudreyHepburn · 25-06-2010 11:54AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Whereas I believe that we should provide support, education and such to help them change should they wish it. Your attitude stinks of the Missionaries that went into Africa and other areas, enforcing their belief systems, and ultimately causing more pain than ever before.

I have no problem with objecting to such practices. I do so myself. But ultimately change only truly occurs when the people themselves want to change. Otherwise it just goes underground with even less regard to hygiene, sensibilities, freedoms etc. The culture of most countries which have practices which are opposite to our own, have some sort of protection or compensation involved somewhere along the line. Jumping in, tearing their system apart does nothing to stop the belief system that supports the practices, and just removes the support inherent in the cultures.

All cultures evolve over time, and while they do so too slowly for many people, they don't stay stagnant for the most part. The Muslim culture is changing, and will eventually get to another stage of development. Jumping in and forcing change is only going to create more support for hard-line traditionalist beliefs. Just as jumping in Africa regarding the female genitalia mutilation will just force it further underground with even worse consequences for the women involved.

Give people and their cultures time to change for themselves. Its not as if the west with its mad rush for change has improved immeasurably. We're still juggling issues like crazy. For most of the changes we've established there have been harsh consequences that are harder to fix than the original problems.

Before I lived in China, I heard hundreds of criticisms about how the government rules supreme, how the people are treated harshly, how women are second class citizens, etc etc etc. And yet when I lived there I was struck by how happy most people are. The sense of community which has been lost in Ireland. Sure, life is hard, but they make a life for themselves, and still have an enormous sense of pride in themselves/their country/and their culture. (Yes, Generalizations included) Yes, there were things that had a pinch of truth from the criticisms I'd heard, and yet it was never the whole story. And China is changing. Rapidly in some areas, and rather slowly in others. I'd prefer that they make their changes in a manner that suits themselves, and helps to maintain the bonuses of their society rather than rushing crazily into the "modern" age.

Klaz I am not saying that we should go in all guns blazing and literally tear these cultures apart. Nowhere in post did I say that so please don't put words in my mouth.

I do believe however we have a duty to protect people from practices FGM which cause only harm and have no logical reason for occuring.

Do you honestly believe that if people don't want to stop cutting up little girls and causing them lifetimes of suffering that's ok? Practices like FGM have been around for centuries, maybe even millenia, they've had ample to time to change and progress but it continues today.

I agree that people have to want to change and I agree that we should let people live as they wish to an extent.

However I said before not where practices like FGM are concerned and not where lives are put at risk.

"It is their culture. What right do we have to say it is right or wrong?"

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