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Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )

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    #182
    crucamim
    Registered Users Posts: 897 ✭✭✭crucamim


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    No way!!!! :eek::eek::eek:

    Please. Let us keep it a serious, good humoured and informative discussion.


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    #183
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,957 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    crucamim wrote: »
    Thank you for that information. Unfortunately, it re-opens an old question of mine which I though had been answered. I often wondered why Luas buses did not have the same gauge as railways so enabling them to run on the same tracks as trains. I was told that Luas vehicles needed a narrower gauge to allow them to climb steeper gradients. So that was me put in my place. Now you seem to have contradicted the explanation which I had been given and which I had believed.

    The cynical suggestion for this is that it was in fact Dublin Bus within CIE that were responsible for Luas at the very start (before the Light Rail Project Office) and they were making absolutely sure Irish Rail couldn't get their hands on it...


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    #184
    crucamim
    Registered Users Posts: 897 ✭✭✭crucamim


    MYOB wrote: »
    The cynical suggestion for this is that it was in fact Dublin Bus within CIE that were responsible for Luas at the very start (before the Light Rail Project Office) and they were making absolutely sure Irish Rail couldn't get their hands on it...

    Are you suggesting that, within CIE, there are people in charge of Irish Rail and other people in charge of Dublin Bus and that these people are serving their own agendas rather than that of the travelling public - and of the taxpayers?

    More pertinent, could Luas vehicles have been given the same gauge as Irish Rail?

    P.S. Is it true that the proposed tunnel from Iniscore to Docklands will not have the same gauge as Irish Rail?


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    #185
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,312 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    crucamim wrote: »
    Your statement that the Newcomen curve is steeper might be correct but it greatly surprises me. So far as I can remember, it is not the Newcomen curve which is steep. It is after the curve which is steep. As the line leaves the curve and continues towards Connolly, it has to climb to join the northern line into Connolly. Is my memory of that detail correct?
    No. Most of the slope is in the curve. Curve and proximity to the station (points + further curves) dictate a low speed. Enter the bottom of the incline at too low a speed and you won't make it out the top.


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    #186
    dRNk SAnTA
    Registered Users Posts: 777 ✭✭✭dRNk SAnTA


    crucamim wrote: »
    P.S. Is it true that the proposed tunnel from Iniscore to Docklands will not have the same gauge as Irish Rail?

    No that's not true! The interconnector links two Irish Rail lines, how could the tunnel have a different gauge?

    Metro north will have a different gauge, the same as the Luas.


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    #187
    crucamim
    Registered Users Posts: 897 ✭✭✭crucamim


    Victor wrote: »
    No. Most of the slope is in the curve. Curve and proximity to the station (points + further curves) dictate a low speed. Enter the bottom of the incline at too low a speed and you won't make it out the top.

    That information is interesting. [The passage of 35 years seems to have played havoc with my memory?]

    Are you saying that, after the branch from the Midland line goes across the canal (is it now on a lifting bridge?), it continues to lose height, even as it takes the curve, and then climbs to get into Connolly? If this is the case, why can the line not be altered so that it does not continue losing height after crossing the canal? It seems silly to have a line losing height to be followed by a climb No doubt, I am missing something somewhere. Once again, thank you for that information.


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    #188
    crucamim
    Registered Users Posts: 897 ✭✭✭crucamim


    dRNk SAnTA wrote: »
    No that's not true! The interconnector links two Irish Rail lines, how could the tunnel have a different gauge?

    That is the question I was asking myself. I was probably confusing it with Metro North.

    I think that Luas and Metro North should have the same gauge as Irish Rail and DART. If this were the case, there would be no need for that feud about the track from Liffey Junction to Broadstone Station.


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    #189
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    crucamim wrote: »
    That is the question I was asking myself. I was probably confusing it with Metro North.

    I think that Luas and Metro North should have the same gauge as Irish Rail and DART. If this were the case, there would be no need for that feud about the track from Liffey Junction to Broadstone Station.
    Wasn't the reason they used different gauge due to the fact that they wanted to re-use old lines to save money? I could be wrong about that though.


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    #190
    markpb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,261 ✭✭✭markpb


    crucamim wrote: »
    Thank you for that information. Unfortunately, it re-opens an old question of mine which I though had been answered. I often wondered why Luas buses did not have the same gauge as railways so enabling them to run on the same tracks as trains. I was told that Luas vehicles needed a narrower gauge to allow them to climb steeper gradients. So that was me put in my place. Now you seem to have contradicted the explanation which I had been given and which I had believed.

    Lets not get snobbish about trains - the Luas vehicles are trams, not buses.

    The only reason I can think of is that choosing the most popular gauge in Europe allowed them to order standard trams from constructors rather than having to specify a non-standard gauge which would (presumably) add to the cost and lead time.

    From a customer point of view, it doesn't matter that they're different gauges - all that matters is that there are connections between the Irish Rail network and the RPA network and that there are cross tickets available.


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    #191
    Irish and Proud
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭Irish and Proud


    markpb wrote: »
    Lets not get snobbish about trains - the Luas vehicles are trams, not buses.

    The only reason I can think of is that choosing the most popular gauge in Europe allowed them to order standard trams from constructors rather than having to specify a non-standard gauge which would (presumably) add to the cost and lead time.

    From a customer point of view, it doesn't matter that they're different gauges - all that matters is that there are connections between the Irish Rail network and the RPA network and that there are cross tickets available.

    ...yeah, since the proposed Metro and Luas networks are of the same gauge, under the same agency and are in no way connected to any of the IE railroads, I don't think it makes any real difference. Integrated Ticketing and inter-rail walkways/escalators is what matters a lot more to rail users. I'm glad that both the MN and DU lines (at Stephen's Green) will be connected directly by a deep level escalator link (as per the plans on the latest DU presentation). This means that any transitional passengers will not have to go near the main ticket hall. We badly need Integrated Ticketing though.

    Regards!


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    #192
    crucamim
    Registered Users Posts: 897 ✭✭✭crucamim


    OisinT wrote: »
    Wasn't the reason they used different gauge due to the fact that they wanted to re-use old lines to save money? I could be wrong about that though.

    I do not know. I had never heard that theory before. It may be correct but it does not sound correct. The current gauge on Irish railways has been in use for a very long time. I doubt that there are many old lines in Dublin which use a different gauge.


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    #193
    crucamim
    Registered Users Posts: 897 ✭✭✭crucamim


    markpb wrote: »

    The only reason I can think of is that choosing the most popular gauge in Europe allowed them to order standard trams from constructors rather than having to specify a non-standard gauge which would (presumably) add to the cost and lead time.

    From a customer point of view, it doesn't matter that they're different gauges

    Your explanation for Luas being on a different gauge seems a reasonable one.

    It is probably true that the different gauges will make little difference to customers - most of the time. From a provision of rail infrastructure point of view, the different gauges will be a barrier to track sharing. I have already mentioned the row over the re-opened line to Broadstone Station. With the proposed Metro North a different gauge from Irish Rail, trains from Dundalk, in the event of another Malahide viaduct break-down will not be able to use it as an alternative route into Dublin. And that would impact on some customers.


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    #194
    Typewriter
    Registered Users Posts: 577 ✭✭✭Typewriter


    There seems to be a lot of waffle in this thread about the gauges.

    Luas is standard gauge because it is cheaper to build/source trams than designing and building a specially made custom build Irish broad gauge tram.
    Same for metro. Its like buying a very large train set.


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    #195
    crucamim
    Registered Users Posts: 897 ✭✭✭crucamim


    green_jesus wrote: »
    There seems to be a lot of waffle in this thread about the gauges.

    Luas is standard gauge because it is cheaper to build/source trams than designing and building a specially made custom build Irish broad gauge tram.
    Same for metro. Its like buying a very large train set.

    Thank you for that information. So it is all about cost and nothing to do with the ability to take steep gradients in urban conditions.


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    #196
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    green_jesus wrote: »
    There seems to be a lot of waffle in this thread about the gauges.

    Luas is standard gauge because it is cheaper to build/source trams than designing and building a specially made custom build Irish broad gauge tram.
    Same for metro. Its like buying a very large train set.
    But then why is one luas track standard gauge and the other is Irish gauge?


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    #197
    GerardKeating
    Registered Users Posts: 7,552 ✭✭✭GerardKeating


    OisinT wrote: »
    But then why is one luas track standard gauge and the other is Irish gauge?

    Both Luas lines are the same gauge, they have (in the past) transfers cars between lines with no problems, well apart from needing a big truck...


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    #198
    Typewriter
    Registered Users Posts: 577 ✭✭✭Typewriter


    OisinT wrote: »
    But then why is one luas track standard gauge and the other is Irish gauge?

    face-palm-300x300.jpg


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    #199
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    GerardKeating wrote: »
    Both Luas lines are the same gauge, they have (in the past) transfers cars between lines with no problems, well apart from needing a big truck...
    Ah bold type. fancy. I didn't mean gauge, I meant interaxis width - my fault.

    PS: Out of curiosity, did they replace that Luas train that was in the collision with the bus, or was it repairable?


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    #200
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    green_jesus wrote: »
    face-palm-300x300.jpg
    You're doing it wrong. Please do it right or don't do it at all.

    picard-facepalm.jpg


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    #201
    markpb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,261 ✭✭✭markpb


    crucamim wrote: »
    the different gauges will be a barrier to track sharing.

    Paris Metro (and several others) don't share track at all. In cities where different lines do share track (London Circle, District & Hammersmith lines), it causes problems because of conflicts.
    I have already mentioned the row over the re-opened line to Broadstone Station.

    The row is because of stupid turf-wars and in-fighting between semi-states. It stems from having too many bodies responsible for the same thing and a lack of proper management at the top (MoT, DoT).

    The problem with track sharing is that it encourages operators to mix traffic on the same line causing problems for everyone on that line. The northern line is shared between Dart, suburban and IC trains and it means a reduced level of service for everyone. Building MN to the same gauge as the IR network would run the risk that some genius somewhere would decide to run express trains on the MN track (other than in the circumstance you mentioned) which would cripple the metro.
    crucamim wrote: »
    Thank you for that information. So it is all about cost and nothing to do with the ability to take steep gradients in urban conditions.

    Nope.
    OisinT wrote: »
    But then why is one luas track standard gauge and the other is Irish gauge?

    Both red and green Luas lines have the same track gauge which means that the same trams can (and have) operate on both. However, the width between tracks (i.e the distance between the in and out lines) is greater on the green line which means wider trams could operate on it, allowing it to carry more people per tram. This was part of the proported plan to "upgrade" the Green luas line to metro frequencies later on.


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    #202
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Exactly, the loading gauge is wider on the Green line, which would allow wider trams/metro vehicles to operate on it in theory, but they don't as of now. All trams on both Red and Green lines are fully interoperable...with the assistance of a low loader of course :rolleyes:

    Even in continental Europe there are countless examples of old, non standard gauges being used for tram systems, 1m gauge being popular enough. Due to the extensive nature of some of these systems it has been easier to leave them non-standard and order custom made trams (at greater expense per unit) than to rip up the streets and start again (exactly the same reasons the Irish standard gauge has been left well alone).

    How did we get onto gauge? it is irrelevant to this thread!


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    #203
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,957 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    crucamim wrote: »
    Are you suggesting that, within CIE, there are people in charge of Irish Rail and other people in charge of Dublin Bus and that these people are serving their own agendas rather than that of the travelling public - and of the taxpayers?

    I didn't think that needed suggestion.

    crucamim wrote: »
    More pertinent, could Luas vehicles have been given the same gauge as Irish Rail?

    Yes, assuming someone would make them for us. Seeing as we've had no problems getting Irish Gauge DMUs off the same makers, I suspect we'd have been OK.
    crucamim wrote: »
    P.S. Is it true that the proposed tunnel from Iniscore to Docklands will not have the same gauge as Irish Rail?

    Absolutely not.


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    #204
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,957 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    OisinT wrote: »
    Wasn't the reason they used different gauge due to the fact that they wanted to re-use old lines to save money? I could be wrong about that though.

    The line they "reused" (trackbed only) was Irish gauge (1600mm) to begin with, not 1435mm.


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    #205
    crucamim
    Registered Users Posts: 897 ✭✭✭crucamim


    MYOB wrote: »
    The line they "reused" (trackbed only) was Irish gauge (1600mm) to begin with, not 1435mm.

    Which line was re-used? Was it the Harcourt line which once went to Dalkey?


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    #206
    crucamim
    Registered Users Posts: 897 ✭✭✭crucamim


    MYOB wrote: »
    Yes, assuming someone would make them for us. Seeing as we've had no problems getting Irish Gauge DMUs off the same makers, I suspect we'd have been OK.

    Another poster has suggested that Luas trains, suited to Irish guage, would have cost a lot more. Probably true. Getting any product tailored for specific needs tends to be costly. How much more it would have cost, I have no idea.


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    #207
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,957 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    crucamim wrote: »
    Which line was re-used? Was it the Harcourt line which once went to Dalkey?

    The trackbed of the Harcourt St. line was re-used, yes. But it used to run to Bray not Dalkey ;)


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    #208
    spacetweek
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,977 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    dynamick wrote: »
    why would anyone use this line when there is a shiny new motorway for them? I can't see Navan rail getting enough passengers. I can't see it being built after Dempsey leaves office and is replaced with a gobdaw from another area.
    You're making the mistake of thinking that PT is all about providing a service, any service. It's not. It absolutely *has* to compete effectively against the car, or it's doomed.

    The estimated journey time for the route via Drogheda is far too long. It just doesn't compete with the car at all, and therefore is completely pointless to provide.
    DWCommuter wrote: »
    I was right, you don't have a clue what you are talking about.

    Did you read that after you typed it? The ignorant arrogance is astounding, considering you don't even know what part of the rail network Im talking about.

    And what are you on about talking about mining underground stations in the PPT!!

    What are you on about now?

    I thought the infrastructure forum was a fairly intelligent place to discuss matters. Come back to me when you have a detailed knowledge of the network and not some half baked understanding thats no doubt based on newspapers and a few open days. I don't mind having my opinions questioned, but it helps if those doing it actually know what Im talking about.
    DW, can you go easy here and recognise that the route via Drogheda takes people halfway round the world at 20 km/h before dropping them off in a hugely overcrowded station?


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    #209
    spacetweek
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,977 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    Can we get back onto Metro North now?

    I'm annoyed that the article there said the IC won't be ready until 2018. This is faffing about.


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    #210
    DWCommuter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭DWCommuter


    spacetweek wrote: »
    You're making the mistake of thinking that PT is all about providing a service, any service. It's not. It absolutely *has* to compete effectively against the car, or it's doomed.

    The estimated journey time for the route via Drogheda is far too long. It just doesn't compete with the car at all, and therefore is completely pointless to provide.

    DW, can you go easy here and recognise that the route via Drogheda takes people halfway round the world at 20 km/h before dropping them off in a hugely overcrowded station?


    No wonder threads go awry.

    I never suggested anything at 20 km/h. I suggested the route be upgraded post interconnector/Metro as a cheaper and easier alternative than the direct route.

    You make it sound like Im calling for it to be put in place now. Furthermore I clearly stated that I was talking about it in the context of Government plans. Personally I believe the M3 will kill off the demand for a rail service to Navan and Im on record with that for a number of years.


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    #211
    crucamim
    Registered Users Posts: 897 ✭✭✭crucamim


    MYOB wrote: »
    The trackbed of the Harcourt St. line was re-used, yes. But it used to run to Bray not Dalkey ;)

    At the risk of diverting the thread and incurring the wrath of the moderators, was there another line in that same area which did run to Dalkey (or Blackrock)?


This discussion has been closed.
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