Is there a license available to cull badgers in Ireland?

johngalway · 26-04-2010 12:55PM #1

Is there a license in existence to cull badgers in The Republic Ireland, and if so on what grounds does it exist? And from what Department is it issued?

Please keep answers on topic and polite. I've asked a simple question and am interested only in genuine answers and not people who may overly read into it.

Regards,

John.

vanderbadger · 26-04-2010 12:59PM

never heard of one anyway John, in terms of TB eradication I think there is often talk of a badger cull or vaccination but dont think thats ever happened either, could be wrong

whelan1 · 26-04-2010 01:05PM

we often ring the department of ag when we see a dead badger around and they take it away and get it tested , ring them and ask them

reilig · 26-04-2010 01:43PM

Hi John,

They are issued by the Department of Agriculture through the District Veterinary Offices. An ordinary Joe Soap cannot obtain a licence to cull badgers. They are issued only to people who are trained to Dep. of Ag. spec. and contracted in for specific culls. The contract for supplying these operatives is with the Farm Relief Services. ie. Dep of Ag contracts these operatives who are insured and employed by FRS. to snare and shoot the badgers and bring them to labs for testing.

I don't know if every area or DVO is the same, but in my own area, if you have a reactor in your herd following a test, then one of these operatives will be asked to visit the area, inspect for badger sets, set snares, monitor them for particular time periods, shoot any badger caught and take it for testing. They are also responsible for lifting the snares at the end of the cull. They have to inspect them daily and will often lift them at weekends.

The more responsible of these men will inform you when they are laying snares in your area so that you can keep your dog away. Some will often ask local farmers to identify sets on their land. The guy that's responsible for our area also fills us in on the results of the lab tests on the badgers that he catches.

Hope that info helps.

pakalasa · 26-04-2010 02:46PM

BTW,

In the Farmers Journal recently, there was also talk of a vaccine programme for badgers. Sorry, cant remember the exact details.

I'll let you read it;
http://www.agriculture.gov.ie/animalhealthwelfare/diseasecontrol/bovinetbbrucellosiseradicationschemes/bovinetberadicationconference/vaccinationofbadgersthestorysofarlcorner/

LostCovey · 27-04-2010 10:39PM

reilig wrote: »

Hi John,

They are issued by the Department of Agriculture through the District Veterinary Offices. An ordinary Joe Soap cannot obtain a licence to cull badgers. They are issued only to people who are trained to Dep. of Ag. spec. and contracted in for specific culls. The contract for supplying these operatives is with the Farm Relief Services. ie. Dep of Ag contracts these operatives who are insured and employed by FRS. to snare and shoot the badgers and bring them to labs for testing.

I don't know if every area or DVO is the same, but in my own area, if you have a reactor in your herd following a test, then one of these operatives will be asked to visit the area, inspect for badger sets, set snares, monitor them for particular time periods, shoot any badger caught and take it for testing. They are also responsible for lifting the snares at the end of the cull. They have to inspect them daily and will often lift them at weekends.

The more responsible of these men will inform you when they are laying snares in your area so that you can keep your dog away. Some will often ask local farmers to identify sets on their land. The guy that's responsible for our area also fills us in on the results of the lab tests on the badgers that he catches.

Hope that info helps.

Just two quibbles with above. The permits are not issued by the Dept of Agriculture. The permits are issued to the Dept of Agriculture by the National Parks & Wildlife Service as far as I know.

Also as far as I know, they are not licences to cull in the agricultural sense (ie eradicate) badgers. They are licences to kill & test a sample of badgers to determine if they are infected with TB.

LostCovey

LostCovey · 27-04-2010 10:50PM

pakalasa wrote: »

BTW,

In the Farmers Journal recently, there was also talk of a vaccine programme for badgers. Sorry, cant remember the exact details.

I'll let you read it;
http://www.agriculture.gov.ie/animalhealthwelfare/diseasecontrol/bovinetbbrucellosiseradicationschemes/bovinetberadicationconference/vaccinationofbadgersthestorysofarlcorner/

Yeah, I read about that project before. Why does anyone believe that BCG, a vaccine that doesn't work in humans will work miracles in badgers? Well actually that's not fair, BCG works well, just not where vaccinated individuals are exposed to TB!

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacillus_Calmette-Guérin

LostCovey

vanderbadger · 28-04-2010 12:24PM

if you do have badgers on your farm ( I suppose most people would have anyway) and you go down in a TB test should you inform the dept or in general would they leave them be unless it was a blackspot??

The_Conductor · 28-04-2010 04:57PM

LostCovey wrote: »

Yeah, I read about that project before. Why does anyone believe that BCG, a vaccine that doesn't work in humans will work miracles in badgers? Well actually that's not fair, BCG works well, just not where vaccinated individuals are exposed to TB!

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacillus_Calmette-Guérin

LostCovey

The BCG vaccine does work in the human population by several methods-

1. Around 83-84% of people have an immune response to the attenuated virus used in the vaccine. This creates whats generically known as a herd immunity- because the likelyhood is that if TB is encountered in the wild, there is a strong likelyhood its by an individual who has a degree of immunity to it.

2. The BCG vaccine is varied geographically- to provide maximum response for the particular strains most likely to be encountered in any particular locale.

3. TB in the human population is making a resurgence- not because the BCG vaccine is ineffective- but because the vaccination programmes were incomplete in some countries and indeed fought against in others. These would include most notably some subsaharan countries, alongside some of the poorer south american countries (other South American Countries were deemed to have eradicated it).

4. The recent resurgence of TB in the human population is as a result of migration by emigrants from TB blackspots- into populations which were deemed free of TB, and thus saw no further need for vaccination. Its bad press to quarantine immigrants until their medical status regarding TB (or any other condition) is known.

5. With respect of vaccination of badgers and other wildlife- trial programmes have been undertaken in several countries (by several methods), most notably Germany and Scandinavia. Where the prevalent strains are included in the vaccination programmes- incidents, other than reactors, can be maintained at very marginal levels.

The BCG vaccine is seen as being highly effective in particular against bacterial meningitis in children (its efficacy against respiratory TB is lesser, but welcome- and its immune response appears to assist with numerous other conditions- notably juvenile onset Type 1 diabetes, among others). Recent education campaigns funded by the EU have emphasised this aspect of the BCG vaccine, in an effort to encourage parents to vaccinate their children (in an Irish context the BCG vaccine is the only HSE administered vaccine (GPs administer the other vaccinations)).

Frankly I don't understand what the antipathy towards a vaccination programme for badgers and other wildlife is- other than of course the difficulty in administering the vaccine to different spp. Local trials- such as the Offaly trials, have been shown to be highly effective.

With respect of the badger population and licences for limited culls- I would emphasise that these are localised limited licenses, specify culling by specific methods, and are not for the eradication of the spp. being culled. With respect of culling licences- the official licences have only been in use since late 1989 (they are issued by Duchas- and the general licence is an annual snaring licence, though other licence categories exist).

LostCovey · 28-04-2010 09:21PM

smccarrick wrote: »

The BCG vaccine does work in the human population by several methods-

1. Around 83-84% of people have an immune response to the attenuated virus used in the vaccine. This creates whats generically known as a herd immunity- because the likelyhood is that if TB is encountered in the wild, there is a strong likelyhood its by an individual who has a degree of immunity to it.

2. The BCG vaccine is varied geographically- to provide maximum response for the particular strains most likely to be encountered in any particular locale.

3. TB in the human population is making a resurgence- not because the BCG vaccine is ineffective- but because the vaccination programmes were incomplete in some countries and indeed fought against in others. These would include most notably some subsaharan countries, alongside some of the poorer south american countries (other South American Countries were deemed to have eradicated it).

4. The recent resurgence of TB in the human population is as a result of migration by emigrants from TB blackspots- into populations which were deemed free of TB, and thus saw no further need for vaccination. Its bad press to quarantine immigrants until their medical status regarding TB (or any other condition) is known.

5. With respect of vaccination of badgers and other wildlife- trial programmes have been undertaken in several countries (by several methods), most notably Germany and Scandinavia. Where the prevalent strains are included in the vaccination programmes- incidents, other than reactors, can be maintained at very marginal levels.

The BCG vaccine is seen as being highly effective in particular against bacterial meningitis in children (its efficacy against respiratory TB is lesser, but welcome- and its immune response appears to assist with numerous other conditions- notably juvenile onset Type 1 diabetes, among others). Recent education campaigns funded by the EU have emphasised this aspect of the BCG vaccine, in an effort to encourage parents to vaccinate their children (in an Irish context the BCG vaccine is the only HSE administered vaccine (GPs administer the other vaccinations)).

Frankly I don't understand what the antipathy towards a vaccination programme for badgers and other wildlife is- other than of course the difficulty in administering the vaccine to different spp. Local trials- such as the Offaly trials, have been shown to be highly effective.

With respect of the badger population and licences for limited culls- I would emphasise that these are localised limited licenses, specify culling by specific methods, and are not for the eradication of the spp. being culled. With respect of culling licences- the official licences have only been in use since late 1989 (they are issued by Duchas- and the general licence is an annual snaring licence, though other licence categories exist).

Hi smccarrick,

While I disagree with the thrust of your argument, I can't quibble with the facts you cite, as most of them support my view!

BCG maintains 'herd immunity' in the absence of challenge, and doesn't work well where TB is endemic. TB is endemic in Irish badgers.

BCG prevents TB meningitis. TB meningitis is not an issue in cattle or badgers.

83-84% of people have a detectable immune response to BCG vaccination. That means that they have a detectable response if tested. This is not the same as saying this response is protective in the face of challenge.

Some bits I didn't understand:

'incidents, other than reactors, can be maintained at very marginal levels'. What are incidents other than reactors?

Local trials- such as the Offaly trials, have been shown to be highly effective. What Offaly trials??????????

Finally, I have no antipathy to vaccinating badgers or other wildlife against TB, rabies, or whatever other disease is deemed important.

I have a strong antipathy to the current BCG badger vaccination programme, only because I get a strong whiff of window-dressing and buying time. Maybe it will work, but there is no basis to assume it will and spend money on it, in a colonial wild animal population that lives in burrows and has well-established endemic tuberculosis.

It's our money that is being spent, in hard times, and this adventure may end up adding another sad chapter to public "investment" in Bovine TB "eradication".

Remember our impoverished wet little country nearly ducked out of vaccinating little girls against cancer on cost grounds.

LostCovey

PS I trust I won't get in trouble for going off-topic with a moderator - it takes two!

The_Conductor · 29-04-2010 08:03AM

I think its a case of we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.
We're both using the same facts to support diametrically opposed viewpoints.
The one big point I'd have to agree with you- is cost grounds. An effective programme could very well be prohibitively expensive in the current climate- finances are just one aspect of this equation- other resources are very much in constraint too.

Ps- there is no issue whatsoever in disagreeing with me as moderator. The principle rule I apply in moderating this forum (and the other fora I moderate) is that posters be civil towards each other- and if they disagree with what someone else posts- to refute the post factually, without personalising it. I can have strongly held viewpoints on certain topics- its always good to debate with others who hold opposing views- it broadens horizons.

LostCovey · 17-05-2010 08:15AM

LostCovey wrote: »

,

'incidents, other than reactors, can be maintained at very marginal levels'. What are incidents other than reactors?

Local trials- such as the Offaly trials, have been shown to be highly effective. What Offaly trials??????????

Hi smccarrick,

Can you explain what you meant by these. I was reading about TB vaccination in badgers at the weekend, and remembered this thread.

Can you explain or expand on the above two points - not looking to re-open a dead debate, just to understand what you meant. It's a minefield of an area in terms of terminology.

Thanks

LostCovey

The_Conductor · 17-05-2010 08:42AM

LostCovey wrote: »

Hi smccarrick,

Can you explain what you meant by these. I was reading about TB vaccination in badgers at the weekend, and remembered this thread.

Can you explain or expand on the above two points - not looking to re-open a dead debate, just to understand what you meant. It's a minefield of an area in terms of terminology.

Thanks

LostCovey

Hi LostCovey-

I was referring to the large increase in incidents on some dairy/drystock farms- while neighbouring farms may have minimal/nil incidents. Badger culling has been shown to statistically reduce these levels- however increase the levels outside of the areas in which the cull is instigated (possibly because of changed behaviour on the part of badgers/other wildlife in the affected area?)

The incidents in areas immediately outside cull sites- are continuing to be investigated, there are a few studies ongoing at the moment (notably one Masters study at UCD)- and at this point remain poorly understood.

Shane

Is there a license available to cull badgers in Ireland?

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