Where is the Libertarian explosion coming from?

Permabear · 11-05-2010 05:49PM

This post has been deleted.

Akrasia · 11-05-2010 05:51PM

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

We're not talking about my beliefs here, There are plenty of threads about that, though nice attempt at diverting the topic. Is there an official moderating position on that now?

Laminations · 11-05-2010 05:54PM

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I don't know which it is but you are either immensely naive or purposely ignorant. The reason it costs the state so much more to cover health is because they take up the slack, they cannot turn people away. So you and I are paying more so that the less well off get looked after. Your private insurer can cover you for less because they don't take on liabilities such as the old or the sick or disabled, at least not for €1500 a year. These liabilities are people, people who wouldn't be covered under a libertarian private system.

Iwasfrozen · 11-05-2010 05:55PM

Akrasia wrote: »

All of those are statements of blind faith.

A shur it'll all be grand.

They are statements with evidence to back them up. Something I noticed your post lacked.

Laminations · 11-05-2010 06:03PM

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

it's not just counterintuitive, it's ridiculous. You identified one group, minors that do not have the freedom to address their own issues or solve their own problems because basically they have an inability to do so. But you fail to recognise that there are other people in the same boat who need a strong advocate to protect their rights. If you weren't there to advocate for your child what would the Market do with her?

Permabear · 11-05-2010 06:07PM

This post has been deleted.

Permabear · 11-05-2010 06:08PM

This post has been deleted.

Laminations · 11-05-2010 06:13PM

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

No it costs that much because there is waste. Do I have to keep repeating this? I'm not advocating waste. The aparatus of the state can be run more efficiently. Now how would a libertarian private health system deal with liabilities to the system, besides making entrance for them extremely difficult with very high rates?

Laminations · 11-05-2010 06:21PM

Libertarians are hypocrites. They believe in freedom of association and property rights. This country belongs to the Irish people, as a citizen you have membership to this club. You may be born here and have automatic membership but if you don't like it you have the freedom of didassociation. As a membership club with defined borders we have certain rules, one of which is that we all agree to pay taxes to try and ensure a basic standard of living for all members. If you don't like this you have the freedom to leave.

Akrasia · 11-05-2010 06:29PM

Laminations wrote: »

I don't know which it is but you are either immensely naive or purposely ignorant. The reason it costs the state so much more to cover health is because they take up the slack, they cannot turn people away. So you and I are paying more so that the less well off get looked after. Your private insurer can cover you for less because they don't take on liabilities such as the old or the sick or disabled, at least not for €1500 a year. These liabilities are people, people who wouldn't be covered under a libertarian private system.

plus private health insurers don't pay anywhere near the real economic cost of the public health services they use.

Private health care in Ireland is heavily subsidised

Iwasfrozen · 11-05-2010 06:29PM

Laminations wrote: »

Libertarians are hypocrites. They believe in freedom of association and property rights. This country belongs to the Irish people, as a citizen you have membership to this club. You may be born here and have automatic membership but if you don't like it you have the freedom of didassociation. As a membership club with defined borders we have certain rules, one of which is that we all agree to pay taxes to try and ensure a basic standard of living for all members. If you don't like this you have the freedom to leave.

One also has the right to try and change the rulesof the club. That does not make one a hypocrite.

Akrasia · 11-05-2010 06:37PM

Laminations wrote: »

No it costs that much because there is waste. Do I have to keep repeating this? I'm not advocating waste. The aparatus of the state can be run more efficiently. Now how would a libertarian private health system deal with liabilities to the system, besides making entrance for them extremely difficult with very high rates?

Whatever about waste, the U.S. spend far more per capita in health care costs than anywhere else in the world. The U.S. health care system is enormously expensive.

Given that private companies are supposed to be so efficient, how come health expenditure per person is almost 3 times more in the U.S. as it is in the U.K where there is universal free healthcare
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_spe_per_per-health-spending-per-person

Laminations · 11-05-2010 06:38PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

One also has the right to try and change the rulesof the club. That does not make one a hypocrite.

Up to the point where you want to see the state abolished? I don't think that's a right, I think you'll find it's treasonous

and I think as a sovereign club, the Irish people should tell you to get the boat.

Iwasfrozen · 11-05-2010 06:41PM

Laminations wrote: »

Up to the point where you want to see the state abolished? I don't think that's a right, I think you'll find it's treasonous

Do you even bother reading previous posts ? Libertarians do not want to abolish the state. Mearly minimise it.

Laminations · 11-05-2010 06:44PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Do you even bother reading previous posts ? Libertarians do not want to abolish the state. Mearly minimise it.

And do you answer questions? After the state is minimised who looks after the liabilities in the system? Your minimising of the state would be a direct attack on it's citizens. So who looks after the liabilities in the system?

Iwasfrozen · 11-05-2010 06:47PM

Laminations wrote: »

and I think as a sovereign club, the Irish people should tell you to get the boat.

As I've said one has the right to try and change the rules of the club.

BluePlanet · 11-05-2010 06:55PM

It really beggars belief that these people want rid of Child Labour Laws but at the same time believe children should be classed as minors and have their liberty curtailed.

It's all about money and profit.
Is there a difference between Libertarians and the Anarcho-Capitalists posting here?

Iwasfrozen · 11-05-2010 06:58PM

Laminations wrote: »

And do you answer questions? After the state is minimised who looks after the liabilities in the system? Your minimising of the state would be a direct attack on it's citizens. So who looks after the liabilities in the system?

Didn't your mother ever teach you not to answer a question with another question ? Also you never asked me the above question. However since you did, I shall answer it. Because that's how I roll.

People will, in a Libertarian world, actually have to (and this is the shocker,) look after themselves !! :eek:

Now I know what you're thinking, "That guy is mad ! How can I, as an average person ever be expected to take care of myself !!"

But believe me when I say the average person is more then able to look after themselves.

Permabear · 11-05-2010 07:00PM

This post has been deleted.

Permabear · 11-05-2010 07:02PM

This post has been deleted.

Iwasfrozen · 11-05-2010 07:04PM

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

*Stunned silence as an online forum poster discredites an entire worldwide political movement and several Libertarian philosophers.*

P. Breathnach · 11-05-2010 08:04PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

*Stunned silence as an online forum poster discredites an entire worldwide political movement and several Libertarian philosophers.*

I don't see any reason for stunned silence: discrediting Libertarianism is easy.

Laminations · 11-05-2010 08:16PM

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

You may think your trite reply is an answer but you still haven't addressed how the vulnerable who are liabilities in a system would fare under libertarianism. Or does the corpus of libertarian thought concern itself only with the 'average' person. If your response is simply 'people can look after themselves' then why look after your kids? They are a group who can't look after themselves? What happens to orphans, addicts, homeless, disabled? All valid questions despite you thinking you can brush them aside

Laminations · 11-05-2010 08:19PM

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I also accept and respect property rights and the freedom to associate. The reason you are hypocrites is that you say you respect these things but you do not respect the state, the prperty of the Irish people

Laminations · 11-05-2010 08:21PM

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I don't see any reason for stunned silence: discrediting Libertarianism is easy.

Indeed. Myself and others have done it many times during this thread to be met with explanations like 'we can look after ourselves'

P. Breathnach · 11-05-2010 08:41PM

Laminations wrote: »

Indeed. Myself and others have done it many times during this thread to be met with explanations like 'we can look after ourselves'

I don't think you got many explanations; you got assertions.

Why should we accept even the most basic (perhaps the only) Libertarian social claim? The right to property is a social construct. Our forebears devised the idea (admittedly in a happenstance way) as a component in a set of arrangements for living in some form of society. Abolish society as we know it, and all bets are off.

Zombrex · 11-05-2010 09:51PM

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Apologies for the hyperbole, but you still haven't answered the question.

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Only 18% of hospitals in France are private. The rest are public and non-profits linked to public hospitals. The majority of GPs are private (as here) but every single tax payer pays public insurance.

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I'm not ignoring anything. I'm asking you how libertarian polices deal with things when they go wrong.

Your response seems to be to simply provide criticism of public government polices when things go wrong. Fair enough, but you haven't explained how your polices would be better.

I could proclaim governments just won't be corrupt, but that would be as naive as proclaiming there will always be another company to go to in a free market.

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

And?

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Of course they do. It is a pretty simply question. You demand (quite rightly) for social democracy policies to explain how they deal with different situations. It makes sense that libertarians explain how their policies deal with different situations.

If a supporter of government run social democracies said "Oh governments won't be corrupt because of fear of not being elected in the next election" you would laugh that off as hopelessly naive position to take.

So why do you us expect us to take an equally naive position that the free market will never fail people.

QUOTE=donegalfella;65837124]
The counterintuitive answer (at least for the statist) is that libertarianism does not set out to "do" or "solve" anything. It simply involves giving people, individually or in groups, the freedom to address their own issues and solve their own problems.[/quote]

And if they can't, what happens? After all our back and forth you have yet to answer this rather simply question.

Leonid · 11-05-2010 09:55PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBHicyqMML4

Permabear · 11-05-2010 10:09PM

This post has been deleted.

Laminations · 11-05-2010 10:10PM

Leonid wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBHicyqMML4

lolbertarian. Classic

Where is the Libertarian explosion coming from?

Comments