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Still no answers for families of Dublin and Monaghan Bombings

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  • #32
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,076 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Specially for Poccington & wolfpawnat; The title of this thread is to do with the Dublin & Monagham Bombings! > (Thread launched at 23:05 in the middle of the UK election debate), hence my prevous post#23 in which I go on to mention several other Bombings-atrocities . . . . .

    I have not said who carried them out, and to be honest I don't even know who did, but the common theme is to do with the word Bombing, I could also add McGurk's Bar bombing, Aldershot bombing, Claudy bombing, M62 coach bombing, Guildford pub bombings, and many more Bombings too.

    Bloody Sunday wasn't a Bombing (Wolfpawnat), and neither was the Miami Showband massacre which you mention (Poccington), I do however suspect that 99% of the Bombings carried out during the troubles were perpetrared by the IRA & the INLA, I wasn't aware that the British forces were responsible for the Bombings in Dublin & Monaghan.


  • #33
    Exile 1798
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 709 ✭✭✭Exile 1798


    Camelot wrote: »
    Specially for Poccington & wolfpawnat; The title of this thread is to do with the Dublin & Monagham Bombings! > (Thread launched at 23:05 in the middle of the UK election debate), hence my prevous post#23 in which I go on to mention several other Bombings-atrocities . . . . .

    I have not said who carried them out, and to be honest I don't even know who did, but the common theme is to do with the word Bombing, I could also add McGurk's Bar bombing, Aldershot bombing, Claudy bombing, M62 coach bombing, Guildford pub bombings, and many more Bombings too.

    Bloody Sunday wasn't a Bombing (Wolfpawnat), and neither was the Miami Showband massacre which you mention (Poccington), I do however suspect that 99% of the Bombings carried out during the troubles were perpetrared by the IRA & the INLA, I wasn't aware that the British forces were responsible for the Bombings in Dublin & Monaghan.

    Your "suspicion" is wrong, and spectacularly so.

    Do you really think it's wise to make stuff up on the spot and post it?


  • #34
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,076 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Exile 1798 wrote: »
    Your "suspicion" is wrong, and spectacularly so.

    Do you really think it's wise to make stuff up on the spot and post it?

    OK Mr Know it all, if not the IRA-INLA, then who?


  • #35
    wolfpawnat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,124 ✭✭✭wolfpawnat


    lugha wrote: »
    If you, as I, do not believe the troubles amounted to a legitimate war then it is certainly right to feel reprehension at the various alleged (and in all likelihood, actual) mid-deeds of British agents such as any involvement in the Dublin or Monaghan bombings or any other incidents of collusion.

    If however, you believe the campaign waged by physical force republicans was legitimate then I don’t see how you can allege that any incidents of collusion were improper. After all, British forces and the various Loyalist groupings were broadly on the same side, so there was nothing amiss about them forming alliances / colluding (delete according to your political viewpoint).

    Again I stress, I did not consider the 30 year republican campaign to be a legitimate war so there is no inconsistency with me expecting that British forces should have abided by the constraints imposed by civil society, and in particular, refrained from collusion. But I fail to see how anyone who did see the afore mentioned campaign as a legitimate war can take the same stand point.

    I believe the North was a legitamit war zone. Where sadly you would expect such acts to occur, but London/Dublin/Monaghan, etc I would not see as part of said war zone. As for how did the legitamacy of the Northern War, truthfully..... I believe that it was a retailiation to the opperssion of an entire community completely based on their political and religious beliefs. That said I will not deny the attrocities committed by either side, nor do I condone the killing of any civilians in the process. As I said before I see the paramilitary groups and the army as the exceptions as both sides knew they were part of a war, and soldiers are supposed to be wars casulties! )hence why I am not signed into the Irish Army (not that they are involved in too much active war zone stuff) I believe the troops that were up north at the time were in a legitamit a war zone as they are now in the middle east.
    Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »
    It was not a seperate act. It was carried out by the Ulster Volunteer Force. It was very connected.

    I suppose I worded that incorrectly, forgive me. What I meant was I cannot comprehend how an act performed outside of the six counties of Ulster that make up the "North" (regardless of the whereabouts of where it takes place) can be let just happen and there be no consequences. After all IRA attacks on London there was renewed campaigns to crush them in the North, but we get attacked and the attitde is one of "sure, better off just leaving well enough alone" same fecking attitude we have to everything, kills me to think we have no backbone anymore.
    Camelot wrote: »
    Specially for Poccington & wolfpawnat; The title of this thread is to do with the Dublin & Monagham Bombings! > (Thread launched at 23:05 in the middle of the UK election debate), hence my prevous post#23 in which I go on to mention several other Bombings-atrocities . . . . .

    The election, as I previously stated had very little to do with my posting this thread. I am reading up on the D&M bombings and I got furious as I researched the severe lack of justice for the families of 33 victims (plus 1 unborn baby) and over 300 survivors. The only thing about the election was I was so bored of listening about it, and my housemate was asleep on the couch, that I decided to go on the internet and there I decided to open a thread about it. Apart from the 6 counties up north I couldnt care less about the Brits and their elections. I am from a different country to them, I would say the same about the elections in Egypt!

    Camelot wrote: »
    Bloody Sunday wasn't a Bombing (Wolfpawnat), and neither was the Miami Showband massacre which you mention (Poccington), I do however suspect that 99% of the Bombings carried out during the troubles were perpetrared by the IRA & the INLA, I wasn't aware that the British forces were responsible for the Bombings in Dublin & Monaghan.

    Yes most bombings were by the different republican groups, but as one poster already said, the opposition were more inclined to use guns as they were equipped by British forces as well as most of the acts of genocide being carried out by the British forces themselves. I do believe myself and Poccington were decussing atrocities of Northern Ireland rather than just bombings. (and before you think I am being dramatic, yes it was genocide, killing a person solely because they have different to you in relation religious and political beliefs is genocide)

    Also I think what makes the likes of Bloody Sunday worse is it was not carried out by extremists but by the people who were supposed to have been put on the streets of the North to protect ALL members of the law abiding community, but that is for another thread.


  • #36
    Exile 1798
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 709 ✭✭✭Exile 1798


    Camelot wrote: »
    OK Mr Know it all, if not the IRA-INLA, then who?

    Unbelievable.:eek:

    By "know it all" you mean someone who knows basic facts about the Troubles that any person who gives their opinion of the subject should.

    Ever hear of the UVF, UFF, LVF? These guys bombed towns, bombed pubs, bombed political offices for thirty years. They didn't give warnings. Perhaps the only reason "know nothings" like you don't know these facts is because Loyalist atrocities and attempted atrocities against civilians were the normal course of events, not memorable exceptions.


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  • #37
    Poccington
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭Poccington


    Camelot wrote: »

    Bloody Sunday wasn't a Bombing (Wolfpawnat), and neither was the Miami Showband massacre which you mention (Poccington), I do however suspect that 99% of the Bombings carried out during the troubles were perpetrared by the IRA & the INLA, I wasn't aware that the British forces were responsible for the Bombings in Dublin & Monaghan.

    Sorry, I didn't realise that an atrocity wasn't an atrocity unless explosives were involved. The Miami Showband Massacre would've been a bombing but the UVF/UDR made a balls of it and the bomb detonated, so they just shot the band instead. :rolleyes:

    McGurk's Bar, Long Bar, Dolan's Bar, McGlade's Bar, Trainor's Bar, Conway's Bar, car bombs on Eden Quay and Sackville Place in '71 and another car bomb in Sackville Place in '73. All these bombings were carried out by the UVF in a 5 year period in the 70's and they carried out many, many more in the 70's and onwards.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Ulster_Volunteer_Force_actions

    Your claim that 99% of the bombings were carried out by the IRA & INLA is not only highly, highly naive it's plain bloody ridiculous.


  • #38
    aDeener
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,487 ✭✭✭aDeener


    wolfpawnat wrote: »
    I believe the North was a legitamit war zone. Where sadly you would expect such acts to occur, but London/Dublin/Monaghan, etc I would not see as part of said war zone. As for how did the legitamacy of the Northern War, truthfully..... I believe that it was a retailiation to the opperssion of an entire community completely based on their political and religious beliefs. That said I will not deny the attrocities committed by either side, nor do I condone the killing of any civilians in the process. As I said before I see the paramilitary groups and the army as the exceptions as both sides knew they were part of a war, and soldiers are supposed to be wars casulties! )hence why I am not signed into the Irish Army (not that they are involved in too much active war zone stuff) I believe the troops that were up north at the time were in a legitamit a war zone as they are now in the middle east.



    I suppose I worded that incorrectly, forgive me. What I meant was I cannot comprehend how an act performed outside of the six counties of Ulster that make up the "North" (regardless of the whereabouts of where it takes place) can be let just happen and there be no consequences. After all IRA attacks on London there was renewed campaigns to crush them in the North, but we get attacked and the attitde is one of "sure, better off just leaving well enough alone" same fecking attitude we have to everything, kills me to think we have no backbone anymore.



    The election, as I previously stated had very little to do with my posting this thread. I am reading up on the D&M bombings and I got furious as I researched the severe lack of justice for the families of 33 victims (plus 1 unborn baby) and over 300 survivors. The only thing about the election was I was so bored of listening about it, and my housemate was asleep on the couch, that I decided to go on the internet and there I decided to open a thread about it. Apart from the 6 counties up north I couldnt care less about the Brits and their elections. I am from a different country to them, I would say the same about the elections in Egypt!




    Yes most bombings were by the different republican groups, but as one poster already said, the opposition were more inclined to use guns as they were equipped by British forces as well as most of the acts of genocide being carried out by the British forces themselves. I do believe myself and Poccington were decussing atrocities of Northern Ireland rather than just bombings. (and before you think I am being dramatic, yes it was genocide, killing a person solely because they have different to you in relation religious and political beliefs is genocide)

    Also I think what makes the likes of Bloody Sunday worse is it was not carried out by extremists but by the people who were supposed to have been put on the streets of the North to protect ALL members of the law abiding community, but that is for another thread.

    thats not completely fair to say, the british embassy being burned down after bloody sunday is a case in point


  • #39
    wolfpawnat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,124 ✭✭✭wolfpawnat


    aDeener wrote: »
    thats not completely fair to say, the british embassy being burned down after bloody sunday is a case in point

    Oh, up North they have the liathróidí to retailiate. I was talking about the irish Gov in Leinster house who didnt even bat an eyelid!!!!!


  • #40
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Camelot wrote: »
    I wasn't aware that the British forces were responsible for the Bombings in Dublin & Monaghan.

    Consider yourself aware.


  • #41
    nacho libre
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,604 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    wolfpawnat wrote: »
    I believe the North was a legitamit war zone.

    I'm just curious since you viewed it this way. What is your view on the SAS shoot to kill policy. did you view such a policy as a crime of agresssion or a legitimitate tactic to defeat an enemy in a war?


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  • #42
    moonpurple
    Closed Accounts Posts: 852 ✭✭✭moonpurple


    what about the other dublin fatal bombing at another time or do any of you remember it....should the family of the deceased learn who planted that bomb which went off a five minute walk from this keyboard

    clue: detonated from behind bushes when target came into view


  • #43
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,076 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Just found this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bombings_during_the_Northern_Ireland_Troubles


  • #44
    wolfpawnat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,124 ✭✭✭wolfpawnat


    nacho libre wrote: »
    I'm just curious since you viewed it this way. What is your view on the SAS shoot to kill policy. did you view such a policy as a crime of agresssion or a legitimitate tactic to defeat an enemy in a war?

    It is a war tactic yes, do I agree with it, no. Reasons specifically relating to the North, Aidan Mcanespie is a perfect example, as of course the poor victims of Bloody Sunday!!!!!!!
    Camelot wrote: »
    Just found this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bombings_during_the_Northern_Ireland_Troubles

    Though many of the atroicities on that page are correct, rule of thumb, don't ever enter a political debate with Wikipedia as your source!


  • #45
    Bottle_of_Smoke
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭Bottle_of_Smoke


    wolfpawnat wrote: »
    It is a war tactic yes, do I agree with it, no. Reasons specifically relating to the North, Aidan Mcanespie is a perfect example, as of course the poor victims of Bloody Sunday!!!!!!!

    I think he's talking of shoot to kill on known IRA targets. Like the attack at loughall


  • #46
    A Dub in Glasgo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,901 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    People can not have it both ways. Loughgall (bar the civilian killed) was fine and Warrenpoint was fine. To think one is OK whilst the other is wrong is a classic example of hypocrisy.


  • #47
    nacho libre
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,604 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »
    I think he's talking of shoot to kill on known IRA targets. Like the attack at loughall

    Yes that's what i meant.


  • #48
    moonpurple
    Closed Accounts Posts: 852 ✭✭✭moonpurple


    the OP is trying to stir up the bitter bucket of irish history, the OP is a rira and cira groupie, one of a few who type on this forum,
    the answer to 10,000 bombings in oilean na hEireann between 1968 and today is the good friday agreement ratified by the majority of voters over 32 counties, it opens as follows,

    We, the participants in the multi-party negotiations, believe that the agreement we have negotiated offers a truly historic opportunity for a new beginning.

    The tragedies of the past have left a deep and profoundly regrettable legacy of suffering. We must never forget those who have died or been injured, and their families. But we can best honour them through a fresh start, in which we firmly dedicate ourselves to the achievement of reconciliation, tolerance, and mutual trust, and to the protection and vindication of the human rights of all.

    We are committed to partnership, equality and mutual respect as the basis of relationships within Northern Ireland, between North and South, and between these islands.

    We reaffirm our total and absolute commitment to exclusively democratic and peaceful means of resolving differences on political issues, and our opposition to any use or threat of force by others for any political purpose whether in regard to this agreement or otherwise.

    We acknowledge the substantial differences between our continuing, and equally legitimate, political aspirations. However, we will endeavour to strive in every practical way towards reconciliation and rapprochement within the framework of democratic and agreed arrangements. We pledge that we will, in good faith, work to ensure the success of each and every one of the arrangements to be established under this agreement. It is accepted that all of the institutional and constitutional arrangements - an Assembly in Northern Ireland, a North/South Ministerial Council, implementation bodies, a British-Irish Council and a British-Irish Intergovernmental conference and any amendments to British Acts of Parliment and the Constitution of Ireland - are interlocking and interdependent and that in particular the functioning of the Assembly and the North/South Council are so closely inter-related that the success of each depends on that of the other.

    Accordingly, in a spirit of concord, we strongly commend this agreement to the people, North and South, for their approval.


  • #49
    UltimateMale
    Closed Accounts Posts: 128 ✭✭UltimateMale


    lugha wrote: »
    You seem to be engaged in some confused reasoning here.

    If you, as I, do not believe the troubles amounted to a legitimate war then it is certainly right to feel reprehension at the various alleged (and in all likelihood, actual) mid-deeds of British agents such as any involvement in the Dublin or Monaghan bombings or any other incidents of collusion.

    If however, you believe the campaign waged by physical force republicans was legitimate then I don’t see how you can allege that any incidents of collusion were improper. After all, British forces and the various Loyalist groupings were broadly on the same side, so there was nothing amiss about them forming alliances / colluding (delete according to your political viewpoint).

    Again I stress, I did not consider the 30 year republican campaign to be a legitimate war so there is no inconsistency with me expecting that British forces should have abided by the constraints imposed by civil society, and in particular, refrained from collusion. But I fail to see how anyone who did see the afore mentioned campaign as a legitimate war can take the same stand point.
    You seem to be engaged in some very confused reasoning here. The UVF, UFF etc are by law illegal oragnisations in the area occupied by the British state and their acts, ( mainly the murder of totally innocent Catholics either side of the border ) totally illegal. As the " forces of law and order " it is the job of the police, army etc to uphold that law and to try to apprehend and stop those carrying out illegal acts, not to actively assist in such acts.

    The fact that they did the exact opposite to the law and their declared role in upholding the law is an even more damning indication of the real role of to British ' peace keeping ' in Ireland.


  • #50
    Bottle_of_Smoke
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭Bottle_of_Smoke


    UltimateMale wrote: »
    You seem to be engaged in some very confused reasoning here. The UVF, UFF etc are by law illegal oragnisations in the area occupied by the British state and their acts, ( mainly the murder of totally innocent Catholics either side of the border ) totally illegal. As the " forces of law and order " it is the job of the police, army etc to uphold that law and to try to apprehend and stop those carrying out illegal acts, not to actively assist in such acts.

    The fact that they did the exact opposite to the law and their declared role in upholding the law is an even more damning indication of the real role of to British ' peace keeping ' in Ireland.

    Whilst I agree in the case of this bombing, I can see lugha's point in say a Republican complaining about a UVF member being given logistical support in killing an IRA member


  • #51
    FlutterinBantam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,575 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    Can I presume that all the people who seem to know so much about these events have got to the relevant authorities with their input?


    Otherwise it's all just conjectural internet bulldust;)


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  • #52
    A Dub in Glasgo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,901 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    Yeah, I sent them a statement at the time :pac:


  • #53
    lugha
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,235 ✭✭✭lugha


    UltimateMale wrote: »
    As the " forces of law and order " it is the job of the police, army etc to uphold that law and to try to apprehend and stop those carrying out illegal acts, not to actively assist in such acts.
    Indeed it is their job. I agree with what you say, if you are talking about agents of the state doing their civil duty in normal times. However if republicans were insisting that their engagement with the British was a wartime scenario then they have no grounds, as B of S points out, for demanding that the British play by civil rules while they play by war time rules (not that placing bombs in pubs where civilians drink and the like is acceptable actions in warfare).

    Out of curiosity, what do you consider to be a "totally innocent" individual?


  • #54
    lugha
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,235 ✭✭✭lugha


    FlutterinBantam wrote: »
    Can I presume that all the people who seem to know so much about these events have got to the relevant authorities with their input?

    Otherwise it's all just conjectural internet bulldust;)

    Ah, but this "dogs on the street know" type intelligence is more than sufficient when you are talking about the mid-deeds of British agents.

    But when similar type intelligence was used to intern suspected republican activists, or suggest someone was a "member" or on the army council, it will be demanded that you produce court standard evidence.

    And even when this was possible, it was dismissed with the mantra that there is no British justice. :pac:


  • #55
    FlutterinBantam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,575 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    Can I assume then you didn't share your 'inside information' with the forces of law and order.


    Yet you are on here critisising them??


  • #56
    Poccington
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭Poccington


    FlutterinBantam wrote: »
    Can I presume that all the people who seem to know so much about these events have got to the relevant authorities with their input?


    Otherwise it's all just conjectural internet bulldust;)

    Colin Wallace and John Weir got to the authorities with their intel before me unfortunately.


  • #57
    FlutterinBantam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,575 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    Too bad.

    I heard that Wes Sommerville and Harris were on their way to co-operate as well.


  • #58
    wolfpawnat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,124 ✭✭✭wolfpawnat


    moonpurple wrote: »
    the OP is trying to stir up the bitter bucket of irish history, the OP is a rira and cira groupie, one of a few who type on this forum

    Excuse you, I am a WHAT? HOW DARE YOU MAKE SUCH ASSUMPTIONS!!!!!!!!!!!! :mad::mad::mad:

    I am a Irish person who cares about the loss of innocent on EITHER side of the political/religious divide of the island of Ireland.

    Omagh bomb - I condemn.
    Dublin&Monaghan Bombings - I condemn.
    Shooting of the pizza delivery guy last year - I condemn.

    Dont you dare call me a groupie to the likes of any murderers! Nationalist or Unionist.

    I have said before I do not condemn any act in which someone who is part of an army,be they Irish/british ("legitamite" or otherwise) fights those of the oppostion who sees themselves as the same. But innocent civilians is another thing COMPLETELY!!!


  • #59
    wolfpawnat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,124 ✭✭✭wolfpawnat


    Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »
    I think he's talking of shoot to kill on known IRA targets. Like the attack at loughall
    nacho libre wrote: »
    Yes that's what i meant.

    It is sad, but they were involved in an attack themselves at the time, if I am not mistaken they were attacking the local RUC base at the time. They would have been seen by their fellow IRA members as being "Killed in the Line of Duty" As would any of the SAS soldiers that would have been killed by those IRA members!
    A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »
    People can not have it both ways. Loughgall (bar the civilian killed) was fine and Warrenpoint was fine. To think one is OK whilst the other is wrong is a classic example of hypocrisy.

    Don't forget, some poor civilian died at Warrenpoint too, a boy fishing on the lake by the Paratroopers (though it is not known if this was accidental or not)


  • #60
    moonpurple
    Closed Accounts Posts: 852 ✭✭✭moonpurple


    at warrenpoint some english lads who had watched their friends blown to pieces in the roadside bomb and then in the secondary bomb at a gatekeepers lodge

    saw two figures across the lough on the republic of ireland side, in the fog of war and in fear of sniper fire and in the normal madness of military attack,

    they opened fire on the figures, a young english boy who had gone fishing with his cousin was killed by shots to his chest,

    there are a lot of groupies on this thread who think that the rira and cira are cool, their infatuation is very clear though they think they are disguising it,

    one more kid killed in a pointless conflict that some scum of the earth, human filth, garbage, want to continue

    other kids include a kid in omagh, a kid in a british midlands town Warrington...many kids, many bombs and more to come without the right thinking of the majority of the gaels to stop it, chuir stad air,

    our prisons here in the republic are open and ready for any rira and cira dogs and their admirers who wish to be kennelled

    beidh sibh isteach ann gach la as do saol ag caint agus ag smaoneamh rudai uafasach agus grainneach


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  • #61
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    moonpurple wrote: »
    at warrenpoint some english lads who had watched their friends blown to pieces in the roadside bomb and then in the secondary bomb at a gatekeepers lodge

    'Paratroops'


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