Iran and the right to defend themselves

05-05-2010 05:21PM

The main difference between the US and the other major powers like Russia or China comes down to their propaganda machines. The US through Hollywood has established the image in western peoples minds of some knight in shining armor who is here to protect our freedoms, although sometimes like any parent they have to do unpleasant things to protect us. There are very few movies that have come out of the US which don't paint their countrys actions in a certain light, and even the ones which do are tempered in some way.

Now you might flip this off as being irrelevant but its not. The American movie industry and the programs which are released for mainstream tv reinforce an image of America which is no less powerful than the huge parades which Stalin used to portray Soviet might. Its something we have all grown up with to varying degrees and its part of how we view America. It was interesting just how different America was when I went there to the movies. The same could be said when I went to Moscow, and then lived in China. The Hollywood portrayal of America and other countries has a certain slant.

Since the end of WW2 the US has taken a dominant role in western politics, and it suited themselves to be seen as being pure and righteous in its war against all enemies foreign and domestic. I'm not saying that we didn't benefit from their actions, but they were actions that stemmed from US interests. Look at Guantanamo bay for example. The US was the main force in the creation of the Geneva Convention, but when it suited them, they decided to ignore it. Just as they have done many times in the past.

Afghanistan was seen as being appropriate considering Sept 11 by most people. Iraq though blew away the image of a shining white knight and made people realise just how different the real America was from the fantasy. America encouraged a certain rule set to be applied to international affairs, enforced it when it was convenient, and then turned its back on it when it wasn't. Thats frightened a lot of people. Myself included. If it was any other country that had done this, we'd be calling for international intervention, however such a response is impossible against America. After all, they are the muscles behind any international response. So we're stuck with a country with Jeckal and Dr. Hyde superpower.

anymore · 05-05-2010 06:02PM

Is this the same movie industry which has produced such war movies as Apocalypse Now, Platoon, Full Metal Jacket, the various Michael Moore movies etc, etc, etc.

I am surprided you didnt take the Hollywood theory a little further and claim it was all jewish conspiracy as in certain circles the ' Jews' are held to run Hollywood.

Scofflaw · 05-05-2010 06:21PM

anymore wrote: »

I am surprided you didnt take the Hollywood theory a little further and claim it was all jewish conspiracy as in certain circles the ' Jews' are held to run Hollywood.

He didn't, though, and that means your imputation here is unwarranted and unacceptable.

moderately,
Scofflaw

05-05-2010 07:59PM

anymore wrote: »

Is this the same movie industry which has produced such war movies as Apocalypse Now, Platoon, Full Metal Jacket, the various Michael Moore movies etc, etc, etc.

Great, you've brought up movies made about the Vietnam war which had massive American domestic resentment towards it, and has entered almost cult status. I notice you haven't mentioned any of the "other" movies which portray America as being the foundation of all that is pure and right... I rather there's a lot more of them to take from.

But, hey, those movies were great weren't they? What about movies like Top Gun, Independence Day, etc which drip America and its "values"..

But TBH, America isn't alone in this. Britain during and after WW2 released movies which placed themselves in the perfect setting for public consumption. Its just that America is the master of such media messages.

I am surprided you didnt take the Hollywood theory a little further and claim it was all jewish conspiracy as in certain circles the ' Jews' are held to run Hollywood.

I don't see why I would. I was talking about the perception that people have about America in the past mostly encouraged through the use of film, and the later perception of America now.

In fact. I can't see why you're raising it at all.

anymore · 05-05-2010 11:07PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Great, you've brought up movies made about the Vietnam war which had massive American domestic resentment towards it, and has entered almost cult status. I notice you haven't mentioned any of the "other" movies which portray America as being the foundation of all that is pure and right... I rather there's a lot more of them to take from.

But, hey, those movies were great weren't they? What about movies like Top Gun, Independence Day, etc which drip America and its "values"..

But TBH, America isn't alone in this. Britain during and after WW2 released movies which placed themselves in the perfect setting for public consumption. Its just that America is the master of such media messages.

In fact. I can't see why you're raising it at all.

The US is the most spectacularily successful country this planet has known and that is why it is disliked so much in parts of Europe.
We will bitterly rue the day when it is no longer the leader of the Free World.
.

Nodin · 05-05-2010 11:19PM

anymore wrote: »

The US is the most spectacularily successful country this planet has known and that is why it is disliked so much in parts of Europe.

No, not really. If you had to be simplistic about it, its US foreign policy, and its stark contrast to US rhetoric and principles. I'd suggest you research US policy in Latin America for some background.

06-05-2010 12:01AM

anymore wrote: »

The US is the most spectacularily successful country this planet has known and that is why it is disliked so much in parts of Europe.

What are you basing this upon? Most successful.. hmm.. perhaps of the last 50 years, but Europe has had its own history of great nations/empires as well. Rome had a rather successful empire for centuries, Genghis Khan conquered larger areas. Or we can look at China 500 years ago, or Thailand of 300 years ago etc.

This jealousy which you seem to believe as the reason for the dislike could be attributed to the former empire countries like France, Germany, the UK, etc however how do you explain the other countries in Euorpe, many of which have been allies of the US for decades. And they've participated in US operations, and have supported US initiatives.

The dislike of the US is a fairly recent thing. Sure there have been remarks about American naivety or their stupidity, but those kind of stereotypes abound between countries within Europe and other countries besides.

No. The dislike has sprung from recent actions. Recent being the last decade. The invasion of Iraq and the crap that went along with it, the subsequent occupation, the actions of the US towards Guantanamo Bay, Torture, etc All of these have encouraged a dislike of the US.

And while you pinpoint Europe in this, we're not alone in that dislike. I spent over a year living in China, and traveled across Asia after that time. There is a lack of respect and almost distrust about US motives now. US presence in the Philippines, Japan, S. Korea etc has been brought under scrutiny, with a growing desire for the removal of US interests in their countries. I have American friends who no longer admit to being American while traveling in Asia, Russia, Australia, or South America simply because of the negative reactions they receive from not just the "locals" but also from other travelers as well. Strange, considering Americans used to be welcome everywhere.

So, Just Europe? Nope. The US are losing the appreciation that people had for them years ago right across the globe.

We will bitterly rue the day when it is no longer the leader of the Free World.
.

Leader of the Free world? I'm hoping that is a joke. Otherwise you have bought the propaganda hook line and sinker. :rolleyes:

eoin5 · 06-05-2010 01:52AM

anymore wrote: »

The US is the most spectacularily successful country this planet has known and that is why it is disliked so much in parts of Europe.
We will bitterly rue the day when it is no longer the leader of the Free World.
.

I guess you're ruing now so. Its pretty much failed in everything it set out to be.

anymore · 06-05-2010 10:58AM

eoin5 wrote: »

I guess you're ruing now so. Its pretty much failed in everything it set out to be.

There has never been a more successful period in history and never have so many people lived in functioning democracies. The majority of places where there is strife is where there is either no functioning democracy or what there is has been debased by corruption or by religion !
The freedom you have today to criticse the US is thanks in very large part to the US - that is the paradox !
Just this week we seen another example of terrorism in the US that originated in one of the dysfunctional ME/Far East countries where fundamentalist religion is eating away at the fabric of society.
There have been no mobs in the streets if New York baying for blood - that is democracy.
God Bless America !

:D

anymore · 06-05-2010 11:00AM

Deleted User wrote: »

What are you basing this upon? Most successful.. hmm.. perhaps of the last 50 years, but Europe has had its own history of great nations/empires as well. Rome had a rather successful empire for centuries, Genghis Khan conquered larger areas. Or we can look at China 500 years ago, or Thailand of 300 years ago etc.

This jealousy which you seem to believe as the reason for the dislike could be attributed to the former empire countries like France, Germany, the UK, etc however how do you explain the other countries in Euorpe, many of which have been allies of the US for decades. And they've participated in US operations, and have supported US initiatives.

The dislike of the US is a fairly recent thing. Sure there have been remarks about American naivety or their stupidity, but those kind of stereotypes abound between countries within Europe and other countries besides.

No. The dislike has sprung from recent actions. Recent being the last decade. The invasion of Iraq and the crap that went along with it, the subsequent occupation, the actions of the US towards Guantanamo Bay, Torture, etc All of these have encouraged a dislike of the US.

And while you pinpoint Europe in this, we're not alone in that dislike. I spent over a year living in China, and traveled across Asia after that time. There is a lack of respect and almost distrust about US motives now. US presence in the Philippines, Japan, S. Korea etc has been brought under scrutiny, with a growing desire for the removal of US interests in their countries. I have American friends who no longer admit to being American while traveling in Asia, Russia, Australia, or South America simply because of the negative reactions they receive from not just the "locals" but also from other travelers as well. Strange, considering Americans used to be welcome everywhere.

So, Just Europe? Nope. The US are losing the appreciation that people had for them years ago right across the globe.

Leader of the Free world? I'm hoping that is a joke. Otherwise you have bought the propaganda hook line and sinker. :rolleyes:

Always always, when Europe has problems, it looks West for Uncle Sam to fix it !

[I]Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord:
He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored;
He hath loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible swift sword:
His truth is marching on.
(Chorus)
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
Glory, glory, hallelujah! .

BluePlanet · 06-05-2010 11:28AM

Glory, glory, hallelujah!

huh?
This thread just got even more weird.

Remy13 · 06-05-2010 01:48PM

anymore wrote: »

Always always, when Europe has problems, it looks West for Uncle Sam to fix it !

odd! i thought it was the US who was seeking help from Europe and elsewhere to help fix it's mess in Afghanistan & Iraq! who's looking to whom to fix problems?

northwest100 · 06-05-2010 01:51PM

BluePlanet wrote:

huh?
This thread just got even more weird

he's been watching Delta Force with Chuck Norris.

06-05-2010 02:51PM

anymore wrote: »

Always always, when Europe has problems, it looks West for Uncle Sam to fix it !

Hmm... when would these cases have been? Considering the US is a relatively new country I must assume we're talking within the last 100 years.. Yes, I can see how that would be always.

But lets bring it to WW2 since thats when the US decided to leave their isolationist policies. Yes, Europe turned to the US looking for help, and did they receive it? Nope. Not until Hitler had declared war on the US. Even Lend Lease which has been made out to be a wonderful gesture on the part of the US, consisted of Britain paying for everything, along with the agreements to release control of parts of their empire. And what happened when the US landed in France and Italy? The land campaign dragged out because they were in no desire to push the German forces back, delaying the war. It was only the fear that Russia would conquer all of Germany that the US finally made a serious push.

So.. where else are we talking about? The Cold War? Where the US sat in their military bases in Europe, and their country remained safe while Europe always faced the possible invasion by Russia... Care to give some specifics as to where Europe is always looking for Aid from the US?

[I]Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord:
He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored;
He hath loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible swift sword:
His truth is marching on.
<Snip>.

Completely irrelevant. Although, this is one of the things I dislike about many American dogma. The religious and holier than thou attitude which seems to pervade so many areas of American culture. But thats a separate topic.

06-05-2010 02:58PM

anymore wrote: »

There has never been a more successful period in history and never have so many people lived in functioning democracies.

The first part is open to criticism. There have been many golden periods in history dependent on the continents involved. As for the second, that may be the case, but how many people truly feel they have any control in the running of their country?

The majority of places where there is strife is where there is either no functioning democracy or what there is has been debased by corruption or by religion !

Explain to me the countries where there is peace, prosperity, and general contentment, and they don't have democracy....

The freedom you have today to criticse the US is thanks in very large part to the US - that is the paradox !

The Freedom I have to criticise is in thanks to my being Irish, the people that fought in many wars (yes, the US is in there along with dozens of other countries), and lastly because I choose to express myself.

Just this week we seen another example of terrorism in the US that originated in one of the dysfunctional ME/Far East countries where fundamentalist religion is eating away at the fabric of society.

If you look at the history of any of the countries where fundamentalism has occured or "terrorism" has come from, you will find the hand of the US. The US has been screwing around with other countries for decades, and still most americans can't understand why their country is hated so much in those regions. Ignorance is bliss.

There have been no mobs in the streets if New York baying for blood - that is democracy.
God Bless America ! :D

Nope that is not Democracy. Thats just western culture. :rolleyes:

Nodin · 06-05-2010 03:27PM

anymore wrote: »

There(....)God Bless America !

..none of which gives America a clean record with regards to the incidents mentioned earlier. We in Western Europe have been fortunate. Far greater numbers of people have not.

anymore wrote: »

B][I]Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord:
He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored;
He hath loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible swift sword:
His truth is marching on.
(Chorus)
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
Glory, glory, hallelujah! . !

Once again, I'm forced to wonder precisely why you're here and the sincerity behind any position you take on any issue.

anymore · 06-05-2010 04:43PM

Deleted User wrote: »

The first part is open to criticism. There have been many golden periods in history dependent on the continents involved. As for the second, that may be the case, but how many people truly feel they have any control in the running of their country?

Explain to me the countries where there is peace, prosperity, and general contentment, and they don't have democracy....

The Freedom I have to criticise is in thanks to my being Irish, the people that fought in many wars (yes, the US is in there along with dozens of other countries), and lastly because I choose to express myself.

If you look at the history of any of the countries where fundamentalism has occured or "terrorism" has come from, you will find the hand of the US. The US has been screwing around with other countries for decades, and still most americans can't understand why their country is hated so much in those regions. Ignorance is bliss.

Nope that is not Democracy. Thats just western culture. :rolleyes:

No the freedom that the Eurooean peoples have today is entirely dependent upon the US and how she preserved freedom in Europe in the 20th century.
Never have we seen such an awesome powerful country execrise its power in such a benign way. The US has its faults, but they are realatively small compared to the faults Europe has displyed over the past two hundred years or so.
Criticise George Bush and his cronies as much as you please - call them war criminals and any other derogative name you wish, but give the full credit for that most astonishing and undervalued thing they did a year or so ago. They reached the end of thier term and handed over power to thier successor and adversaries. Think about it for a while and think about the many countires where that simple manoeuvre cannoit be so easily achieved.-

06-05-2010 08:20PM

anymore wrote: »

No the freedom that the Eurooean peoples have today is entirely dependent upon the US and how she preserved freedom in Europe in the 20th century.

Why? Give me some specifics. I've outlined possible areas, which you seem unwilling or unable to directly respond to. All you've been doing is throwing out comments like the above. So, where has the US specifically preserved our freedoms and how? And lastly, how many of those times did not have a price tag involved?

Never have we seen such an awesome powerful country execrise its power in such a benign way. The US has its faults, but they are realatively small compared to the faults Europe has displyed over the past two hundred years or so.

Well, I suppose its hardly worth commenting on the treatment of the native Indians by the US, or its problems with racism within its own borders. I'm guessing that those little issues have flown past your radar.. And as for being benign, the US has used political pressure, economic sanctions, embargo's, financing rebels, instigating coups, and lastly direct military intervention in areas it felt worth involving itself in.

And considering that in many of those cases the US packed up shop and ran, leaving their former allies in the lurch when things went sour, I would guess quite a few countries wouldn't consider them "Benign".

Criticise George Bush and his cronies as much as you please - call them war criminals and any other derogative name you wish, but give the full credit for that most astonishing and undervalued thing they did a year or so ago.

Thanks for your permission. So much for the freedom you claim we enjoy because of US actions. Seems it comes with a price after all. :rolleyes:

They reached the end of thier term and handed over power to thier successor and adversaries. Think about it for a while and think about the many countires where that simple manoeuvre cannoit be so easily achieved.-

You're actually praising them for obeying the law of the US in handing over power to the legally elected replacements? That's really scraping the bottom of the barrel looking for compliments.

Perhaps you should look at it another way. They passed over an economy in serious trouble, a demoralized military, a restless population, a massive reduction in international respect, a decrease in both military and political allies, never mind the numerous domestic social issues, and lastly having given the "Terrorists" even more reason to pursue war with the US.

You can really sit there and say that they're worthy of praise? Bush and his administration have done more harm to the US than any enemy organisation, terrorist or otherwise.

NOTE: Its really not that difficult to spell words correctly, especially something like "European". Show some respect and use the spell checker if you can't be bothered to manually check your posts before submitting. [I use the Mozilla checker, which is why I have so many Z instead of S in worlds.

]

Remy13 · 06-05-2010 09:11PM

anymore wrote: »

The US has its faults, but they are realatively small compared to the faults Europe has displyed over the past two hundred years or so.

what are the US's faults and what are Europe's faults, as displayed over the past two hundred years or so? in your own words please.

anymore wrote: »

Think about it for a while and think about the many countires where that simple manoeuvre cannoit be so easily achieved.-

you mean like Saudi Arabia and Egypt for example? two American allies. two corrupt regimes propped up by American tax dollars and supported by American administrations down the years?

Nodin · 06-05-2010 10:51PM

anymore wrote: »

No the freedom that (.....)manoeuvre cannoit be so easily achieved.-

You've still failed to address the 'holes in the plot' outlined earlier.

wasper · 07-05-2010 04:20AM

eoin5 wrote: »

When I hear most people on the Iranian nuclear issue they seem to be thinking along the lines of a new North Korea. While they definitely arent internationally innocent, they have been messed with so much with operation Ajax and the 10 year war and whatnot that I'm not surprised that would want to become a nuclear power from just wanting to defend themselves.

The nuclear deproliferation treaty has only got gestures from the bigger countries, a promise here and a nuclear sub there. I dont like it but I can see why they would ignore it.

Why should they give in to international pressure?

Looking at the map of Iran & it's neighbours. The whole area is under American influence. So Iran is basically sieged from all 4 corners. Naturally they feel threatened.

BlaasForRafa · 07-05-2010 08:35AM

Remy13 wrote: »

what are the US's faults and what are Europe's faults, as displayed over the past two hundred years or so? in your own words please.

Read a f**king history book.

Or get a bit of cop on, one or the other, your choice.

07-05-2010 06:38PM

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Read a f**king history book.

Or get a bit of cop on, one or the other, your choice.

Actually, he's right since what anymore has been alluding to isn't clear. He's made loads of vague references without any specifics.

Personally, I think you're being out of line. I asked the same thing of Anymore in my post above, or do you think I need to read a f**king history book as well?

RandomName2 · 07-05-2010 10:44PM

wasper wrote: »

Looking at the map of Iran & it's neighbours. The whole area is under American influence. So Iran is basically sieged from all 4 corners. Naturally they feel threatened.

I know, it's got two democracies bordering it now. Must feel real threatened.

No, in reality the only historical threat to Iran has been Russia, which has receded to a large extent (due to the border receding). Iran is a really easily defensible country that sits upon a vast supply of oil. Although they quickly ran out of enthusiasm for ideas concerning the conquest of other countries after the glorious revolution, it hasn't stopped them attempting to surreptitiously spread their wings (a bit like the US). The sneaky-sneaky realpolitik that the US adopted in the late 20th century was not terribly edifying, but was arguably preferable to war (but backing Pol Pot? :pac:)

The difference between the US and Iran is that Iran is a repressive ultra-conservative dictatorship run by imans. Iran defending itself includes defending itself against itself. The first people Iran is likely to exert physical force against are its own people. Presumably it is also likely to target any other nation which it perceives to be leading its people astray. I remember there was a bit of controversy last football World Cup about women being allowed watch it on television (in public, no less!) - I wonder if the authorities will act this time around?

northwest100 · 08-05-2010 01:28AM

RandomName2 wrote:

I know, it's got two democracies bordering it now. Must feel real threatened.

LOL

I think any rational intelligent person can atleast acknowledge, democracy and prosperity should not accompany the invasion, deliberate collapse and impoverishment of the nation and its people.

If that's the definition of democracy and freedom, the US elites have done an excellent job.

Perhaps empires such as the US should focus on fixing the problems of their own country first before looking to cause more outside it...

If they're truly sincere about spreading freedom and democracy, they should start with their own country..but of course, any intelligent person can see they're not.

RandomName2 · 08-05-2010 07:36AM

northwest100 wrote: »

LOL

I think any rational intelligent person can at least acknowledge, democracy and prosperity should not accompany the invasion, deliberate collapse and impoverishment of the nation and its people.

This bit don't make any sense. I think you are suggesting that the US invaded Iraq and Afghanistan, collapsed the existing systems in both countries, and them impoverished them. If so you are.... then you are correct, correct, and wrong (2 of 3 ain't bad)

northwest100 wrote: »

Perhaps empires such as the US should focus on fixing the problems of their own country first before looking to cause more outside it...

If they're truly sincere about spreading freedom and democracy, they should start with their own country..but of course, any intelligent person can see they're not.

Yes the US has tons it has to do at home. It is more than a little divided in what methodology it should pursue to fix its own problems thorugh. Seems easier to interfere in countries that are obviously screwed up such that it looks plain simple what would make them better. And the are right on this count - shame they didn't think through how they were going to implement regime change in the two aforementioned countries. Like the underpants gnomes from SouthPark: stage one - collect underwear.... stage two - (blank) .... stage three - profit!

northwest100 · 08-05-2010 03:13PM

RandomName2 wrote:

This bit don't make any sense. I think you are suggesting that the US invaded Iraq and Afghanistan, collapsed the existing systems in both countries, and them impoverished them. If so you are.... then you are correct, correct, and wrong (2 of 3 ain't bad)

:rolleyes:

yeah...makes no sense, i wouldn't want their "democracy" in this country.

08-05-2010 09:05PM

RandomName2 wrote: »

Yes the US has tons it has to do at home. It is more than a little divided in what methodology it should pursue to fix its own problems thorugh. Seems easier to interfere in countries that are obviously screwed up such that it looks plain simple what would make them better. And the are right on this count - shame they didn't think through how they were going to implement regime change in the two aforementioned countries. Like the underpants gnomes from SouthPark: stage one - collect underwear.... stage two - (blank) .... stage three - profit!

There's actually A LOT of precedence with countries seeking to shift attention for the problems at home, but placing attention on foreign countries. The US has had social problems for decades and they've traditionally spent the money that could "fix" (or at least reduce) those problems, on "investments" abroad. There was Communism and the threat to the Free World. Now "terrorism". The US love to have supreme causes to keep them occupied. Other countries have done the same in the past, like France or Germany. Simply put, populations are generally more interested in happenings in other countries than their own back yard. Gives them a chance to feel superior about their culture or "values", and to forget their own issues. Although I have to admit that the values that the US tries to promote are sadly lacking in a rather large portion of the Americans I have met either in America or abroad. (Not all though. There are some rather lovely Americans out there that practice what they preach).

Iran and the right to defend themselves

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