To breed or not to breed that is the question?

wopper10 · 25-04-2010 04:28PM #1

I have a bitch that I'm thinking about breeding she has a top class pedigree her dad is a huge champion in the show world been showing all over EU, Ireland and the UK and the same with her brother. She was also shown got a best of breed a reserve best of breed and has 2 green stars and never graded below very good. so I know she is a very good example of the breed!

One problem, she had a great temperment with everyone, she met men, women and children. But ever since she was about 9 months old she has a fear or strangers due to a very bad experience with a vet. She will even bare teeth at older people if they go to pet her head.

My question is, is this a trait that she could pass on, as it wasn't something she was born with or developed it was forced on her unfortunately by my vet. She still has a great temperment for anybody she knows so gentle, so nice, a truly beautiful dog!

Thought and opinions welcome

jujuB · 25-04-2010 05:01PM

Aw the poor pet. My friend had a similar experience with his dog, he hates going to the vet now and it makes his life very difficult! The vet has to come out to the car because he refuses to get out! I don't see how it will pass through to the puppies, that is just due to an experience she has encountered, it is not genetic! The thing I would be more worried about is if/when she has the puppies, she will be fiercely protective of them, which may cause problems with people coming to see them etc. Can I ask what breed of dog she is? My dog had 9 puppies last September, she's a pure Rottweiler and such a big baby, she never ever growled once, and had absolutely NO problem with strangers picking her babies up and they were only one week old!

lorebringer · 25-04-2010 05:06PM

A dog that is skittish, fearful, aggressive etc. due to "life experience" will not pass on the trait (plenty of rescue dogs are very weird about certain situations that could only come down to life experience or abuse suffered). However, if your dog is inclined to be skittish etc. with new situations and thus built up an association with the vet being a negative thing very quickly, the trait can be passed on. Often, puppies can be very different to their parents as well as being like clones.

Just a quick word - I know your dog has a champion blood line but please get her health tested for genetic illnesses that affects the breed (eg. hip problems, heart problems etc.) before you breed from her. Also, it is generally not a good idea to breed a bitch who is very young because she may not be expressing problems but given a few years she could have a serious health complaint (I really hope she doesn't but unfortunately it does happen). She may appear healthy and be a beautiful dog but often times genetic problems can rear their heads after the pups have been born, and she could pass any problems on to the next generation (and generations after that!).

What breed is she?

Sigma Force · 25-04-2010 07:02PM

I think it's very responsible for you to consider the dogs personality traits, heath history is so important but many people don't consider their dogs temprament so good on you.
It does sound, as said, more of a life experience.

I guess the thing to ask yourself is do you wish to breed her because she is an excellent example of her breed and is there are shortage of healthy dogs of that breed. Or is it more a financial thing where you want her to have pups to sell on because they may be worth more with the show history.

Although from your post it does sound more like you want to continue the breed line rather than it being a financial thing.

One idea might be to have a talk with a good dog trainer and discuss her issues and see if she can be help. They'd be best qualified to tell you wether it's something more in-built or more of a learned behaviour.
If you live in the Dub area dog training ireland would be worth a visit.

Health testing is vital, saying that some things can't be predicted so there's always a risk with any pregnancy, things to consider is the breed a breed that is sensative to anesthetic and things like that as well just in case she gets into trouble and needs a c-section etc.

CreedonsDogDayc · 25-04-2010 08:41PM

She wont genetically pass on her fear of strangers, but she could pass it on as a learned behaviour to her pups.

I would suggest that if you do decide to breed your dog you overcome her fear of strangers first.

Pups learn so much from their mothers, especially in the first few weeks of life, so this behavioural trait can be passed on to her pups. For instance, say your dog has 6 pups. By the time the 6th pup is rehomed it will have witnessed many strangers coming to visit their chosen pup. If during these events your dog becomes stressed and growls at the strangers, the pup will associate strangers with their mummy becoming stressed, and they will pick up on the stressful environment.

Also, potential puppy buyers will want to meet the pups mother, and a stressed out growling mother is not going to impress them!!!

So definitely get to the bottom of this issue, for the good of you and your little girl!!

wopper10 · 25-04-2010 11:58PM

Hi guys thanks so much for opinions and advice!

She is a 19 month old, old english for those of you asking what breed she was.

I'm not breeding her for a money aspect at all couldn't care a less about the money to be honest! She is most definitely worth breeding as her bloodlines are sooo good but the last thing I wont is to produce bad pups that will hurt or effect the quality of this breed. I will not breed from until she is the right age and that I feel she has matured enough to raise the pups as she is still very much a playful pup herself

She is endorsed by my breeder so I will be doing everything along side her with her guidance and help, But I was worried about this temperment problem.Which is why I wanted to get on to boards.ie.

Basically what happened was I was on a walk with her up the Wicklow mountains and she got glass stuck in her paw. I took her to the vet where he stupidly muzzled her got two nurses to pin her down and hold her and he took out the glass and stitched her up WITHOUT any anesthetic or sedation!!!To this day I don't know why he didn't give her anesthetic. That is why she has this fear of strangers now. She was the most friendly outgoing dog jumping up and licking everyone before this all happened. It was such a shame I still get so angry thinking about it and needless to say I never went back to that vet!

I think I'm going to go to dog training Ireland and see what they say about her. Cause I do NOT in anyway want to produce pups from her that will be less than perfect

Thanks again to you all!

26-04-2010 12:19AM

I have an Old English aswell great dogs.

You've gotten good answers to your original question here but I wanted to add another aspect; these pups are difficult enough to sell. I know you said you're not doing it for the money but you don't want to be in a position where you're left with 5 or 6 of them!

My basis for this is research. My OES comes from a very good bloodline too but the breeder I got her from had issues selling all of the litter. They're such a big dog and require such maintenance that not too many people are willing to take them on.

Not trying to put you off or anything but you're taking such care to cover all angles, this is another one.

wopper10 · 26-04-2010 12:37AM

Thanks I know there isn't a big a market out there for large breeds as there is small ones. I'm hoping to line up buyers before I mate her. I also set up a savings acc when I first got her, so when and if she is mated I will be getting her an ultra sound to hopefully have an idea of how many we may have and hopefully find suitable homes for them all

thanks again!

00112984 wrote: »

I have an Old English aswell great dogs.

You've gotten good answers to your original question here but I wanted to add another aspect; these pups are difficult enough to sell. I know you said you're not doing it for the money but you don't want to be in a position where you're left with 5 or 6 of them!

My basis for this is research. My OES comes from a very good bloodline too but the breeder I got her from had issues selling all of the litter. They're such a big dog and require such maintenance that not too many people are willing to take them on.

Not trying to put you off or anything but you're taking such care to cover all angles, this is another one.

Wisco · 26-04-2010 10:35AM

Just a little FYI on knowing how many pups she might have- very difficult to determine on ultrasound how many there will be as pups can hide behind each other, etc- it's not quite the exact science as it is in human medicine. The best you'll usually get is- 'a few' or 'a lot' rather than a specific number- depends a bit on the quality of ultrasound machine your vet has.

mollymascara · 26-04-2010 11:05AM

wopper10 wrote: »

Hi guys thanks so much for opinions and advice!

She is a 19 month old, old english for those of you asking what breed she was.

I'm not breeding her for a money aspect at all couldn't care a less about the money to be honest! She is most definitely worth breeding as her bloodlines are sooo good but the last thing I wont is to produce bad pups that will hurt or effect the quality of this breed. I will not breed from until she is the right age and that I feel she has matured enough to raise the pups as she is still very much a playful pup herself

She is endorsed by my breeder so I will be doing everything along side her with her guidance and help, But I was worried about this temperment problem.Which is why I wanted to get on to boards.ie.

Basically what happened was I was on a walk with her up the Wicklow mountains and she got glass stuck in her paw. I took her to the vet where he stupidly muzzled her got two nurses to pin her down and hold her and he took out the glass and stitched her up WITHOUT any anesthetic or sedation!!!To this day I don't know why he didn't give her anesthetic. That is why she has this fear of strangers now. She was the most friendly outgoing dog jumping up and licking everyone before this all happened. It was such a shame I still get so angry thinking about it and needless to say I never went back to that vet!

I think I'm going to go to dog training Ireland and see what they say about her. Cause I do NOT in anyway want to produce pups from her that will be less than perfect
Thanks again to you all!

Aww no wonder she is nervous when around or greeted by strangers.
I took my own dog to the vets as a puppy, needed his nails clipped, the impatients vet on duty at the time yanked his paw and he yelped out, for about a week later anytime anyone picked him up / touched the area around his shoulder, he yelped, obviously an after effect of the paw pulling. He really didnt much care for the vets after that, nor did he like anyone touching his paws. So over time I taught him to give the paw and associate it with a more pleasant experience, ie food/treats, and he now willingly gives it to anyone who enters the house.
Anything negative learned/experienced can be changed into a positive, given enough time and patience. I think the training or behaviourist would be a really good idea, for her as much as anything.

TooManyDogs · 26-04-2010 02:37PM

Wisco wrote: »

Just a little FYI on knowing how many pups she might have- very difficult to determine on ultrasound how many there will be as pups can hide behind each other

That's so true, one of the pregnant dogs I fostered had a scan and I was told there would be 3 or 4 large pups..... there were 10 small ones! :eek:

To breed or not to breed that is the question?

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